[///Bruce]

Sorry, I just don't view Tesla as a staple of reliability. I've been living with one for over 2 years and just traded it in for a new Macan. Couldn't be happier about this decision.

I agree. Audi or Porsche for EV’s right now.

 

[KenMacan]

Also, especially these days a new car lease makes sense. Don’t have to worry about what the car will be worth after you use it for 3+ years, especially with the ICE To EV transition going in the next few years. And, there are risks in both camps!

Plus Porsche will extend leases if you are buying another Porsche. Or even exit you earlier! At least they have some skin in the game.

 

[MacanE63S]

My indy also brought to my attention that I had a coolant leak, evident by the globs of pink residue in the engine bay. Sure enough, I took it to porsche and they discovered a crack in the coolant pipe. I may have averted the same fate since catching it early on. 48K miles on mine

 

[Nifty]

This is why I would never own one of these without some warranty. But then it doesn't say much when you think about it. The cars should not have to be covered with such pricey insurance. Both my Caymans I drove without warranty. I had an older 911 I never worried about. But the Macans and Cayennes....a flatbed is always hauling one in to the local dealer.

I think part of this is because everyone is on the internet these days and these events are more visible than before. For years the Porsche community went in circles over the IMS issue. That didn't really become a problem until years after the cars were in production. Then you always had your doubts but no real numbers.

I'm realy curious to know what caused this. .

 

[.101354]

Many good points are being made in this thread. I agree one would think Porsche would want to know what happened. As stated there are several causations possible....and all of them are related to excess heat or lack of proper lubrication. But, to me the main problem here is not the car itself. It is the way Porsche addresses catastrophe failure and their control of the repair process. Porsche is in business to make money.....bottom line. They want their cars to last u til the warrenty is out. That is it. They have no interest in making cars that will easily last 100000 miles. Of course there are Porsche's that do last that long but that is not the point. By controlling repair cost.....mainly by controlling parts availability even more money is being made. By controlling parts independent shops find It not in their best interest in investing their time and money into the Porsche repair. So competition is much less. There are ways around this that certain very talented people do in their speed shops etc but this is the reason that no national chain repair handles Porsche. I have learned a lot by owning my Macan and that is not good for the Porsche mystique/status. Porsche may not have realized that by making the Macan and selling gobs of them at a lower price they would be exposing their business environment to the "common man". I actually feel sorry for some Porsche owners. Porsche does not stand behind their cars. They make great performing good looking cars...don't get me wrong ....but one should not purschase a Macan for long term ownership ( past warrenty) without knowing a good independent Porsche repair shop, having a big wallet, or can handle the upkeep and repairs themselves.
There has been numerous catastropic failures in the Macan that have occurred when it is just past the warrenty. Porsche needs to step up.
By the way why is there a time limit (just 4 years) on a car warrenty? I understand it can't be forever...but 4 years is not very long. Time doesn't wear a car out, use does. Perhaps they could have a different warrenty just for the drivetrains? Like 7 years or 75000 miles against catastrophic failure....defined maybe as one that requires engine replacement or transmission replacement?!
Come on Porsche ..step up here. Realistically stand behind what you make.

 

[carsly]

By the way why is there a time limit (just 4 years) on a car warrenty? I understand it can't be forever...but 4 years is not very long. Time doesn't wear a car out, use does. Perhaps they could have a different warrenty just for the drivetrains? Like 7 years or 75000 miles against catastrophic failure....defined maybe as one that requires engine replacement or transmission replacement?!
Come on Porsche ..step up here. Realistically stand behind what you make.

Completely on board here, is it possible to have longer warranties without incurring substantially higher warranty expenses? Evidence would suggest yes.

Hyundai Warranty Coverage | America's Best | Hyundai USA

Experience the peace of mind that comes with high quality car service. Learn more about our warranty options including Powertrain, New Vehicle, & more.

www.hyundaiusa.com

Hyundai offers a 10 yr/100K mile warranty on the powertrain. Hyundai has lower prices and profit margins than Porsche. If Porsche engineering is as fantastic as claimed (I'd argue it was on my old 996 Turbo, on my Macan not so much) then they should be able to offer at least something similar - if not much better.

BUT the luxury car business isn't dominated by people buying and owning cars for long periods of time. It's a churn game where you pay the piper twice - once for the original lessee who is covered under their three years and 36K miles of ownership and the second for the CPO buyer who may get up to another three years of warranty coverage. If you want to know how long the cars are engineered to last, that's it by business model design - six years or two turns of the car (particularly the SUV's, 911's and 718's are different). Pre-pandemic it seemed many Porsche dealerships would not sell a used car that they could not CPO. If they did opt to floorplan instead of auction, it was often the one-owner cars with full service histories at that dealership.

Volumes are too high with base Macans and Cayennes churning off of leases. So dealerships don't even want to deal with repairs. They manage this by quoting sky-high prices for parts and labor for out-of-warranty vehicles. They are designed, again by engineering and business model, to get mechanically totalled at the first sign or symptom of major problems. That third or fourth owner really takes the biggest risks. A $30K Macan Turbo or $25K Cayenne is going to cost at least half that in maintenance and repairs over a few years.

So Porsche could offer longer warranties, and lower prices, but they won't as long as people are happy to pony up for the brand image and mystique without thinking about the fact they are largely driving VW/Audi rebadged/warmed over leftovers.

Yes, I own a 2015 Macan S (bought used from the original owner) and it's a fantastic little SUV. But it's not really a Porsche, not like a 911, despite the advertising fluff.

 

[Nifty]

Start with the IMS and coolant pipe class action lawsuits. Its not like there isn't a documented history.

Avoidable Contact: Cayenne Won't Help Ya, Cayenne Won't Do You No Good.

“When,” I asked her, “did you realize that you, were, well, you know, an actual prostitute?”“Well,” she said, rubbing her cigarette out in the waffle-patterned wrought-iron table, shielding her eyes against the sun as it set in the distance, “I’d been dancing for a while, and there was kind of a...

www.thetruthaboutcars.com

It's the reason I stayed away from the Panamera. (Filing and details at the link)
Porsche Hit with Class Action Over Alleged Coolant Pipe Adhesive Defect in Cayenne, Panamera Models

 

[grim]

It is the way Porsche addresses catastrophe failure and their control of the repair process. Porsche is in business to make money.....bottom line. They want their cars to last u til the warrenty is out. That is it. They have no interest in making cars that will easily last 100000 miles.

Not true, at least according to an ex employee. If you read the original PDK sticky, you would see the reasoning of not wanting people to chip their cars and create torque stresses the PDK was never designed to handle. Add HP and another part of the car breaks. They have every interest in making the cars run as long as possible.

If all the Macans dies at 70K miles, the class actions suits would bury them. You see any? Even with the oil problems you see any? I suspect the reason while we document them, its still a tiny number. How many Macans sold worldwide? Half a million? I don't know. How many problem cars? Now do all the other models.

You cannot judge the entire set of all Macans by this forum. You don't know what you don't know.

Of course there are Porsche's that do last that long but that is not the point. By controlling repair cost.....mainly by controlling parts availability even more money is being made. By controlling parts independent shops find It not in their best interest in investing their time and money into the Porsche repair. So competition is much less. There are ways around this that certain very talented people do in their speed shops etc but this is the reason that no national chain repair handles Porsche.

I suspect your reasoning is off here too. Its probably more in line with the cost to rent PIWIS. Not cheap. So your not going to your local Meinke to fix a Porsche. However, having owned these cars for many decades, there are MANY independents that specialize in Porsche repair. They have been easy to find. Ask your local PCA for references. I think the real reason is PIWIS access.

. Porsche may not have realized that by making the Macan and selling gobs of them at a lower price they would be exposing their business environment to the "common man". I actually feel sorry for some Porsche owners.

They know. Of course they know. Baruth said it all in Nov, 2013

Avoidable Contact: Cayenne Won't Help Ya, Cayenne Won't Do You No Good.

“When,” I asked her, “did you realize that you, were, well, you know, an actual prostitute?”“Well,” she said, rubbing her cigarette out in the waffle-patterned wrought-iron table, shielding her eyes against the sun as it set in the distance, “I’d been dancing for a while, and there was kind of a...

www.thetruthaboutcars.com

Of course they know. Your expectations are not the same as the Porsche buyers prior to 2013. Baruth nailed it.

There has been numerous catastropic failures in the Macan that have occurred when it is just past the warrenty.

Links? If there many, we should put up a sticky and link to them. Where are they? I know of maybe 2 or 3 of engines blowing up in 8 years, which is deep, deep in the noise. And you have to know all the details of how the car was cared for. Just read the "how will you break it in thread". Some people think it wise to ignore the car maker and drive it like they stole it. So do the math. How many catastrophic failures have happened among all the cars sold? 148K cars sold in the U S and the US is not the biggest market, China is. so maybe 400,000 cars sold? Show the link to all the catastrophic engine failures and do the math.

Im not defending them, but rather one has to know ALL the information and not anecdotal data.

 

[grim]

Hyundai offers a 10 yr/100K mile warranty on the powertrain. Hyundai has lower prices and profit margins than Porsche. If Porsche engineering is as fantastic as claimed (I'd argue it was on my old 996 Turbo, on my Macan not so much) then they should be able to offer at least something similar - if not much better.

They don't need to. Its Value based pricing. While Hyundai/Kai is likely begging for customers, Porsche can't build them fast enough. If they were begging for customers, you might see that.

BUT the luxury car business isn't dominated by people buying and owning cars for long periods of time. It's a churn game where you pay the piper twice - once for the original lessee who is covered under their three years and 36K miles of ownership and the second for the CPO buyer who may get up to another three years of warranty coverage. If you want to know how long the cars are engineered to last, that's it by business model design - six years or two turns of the car (particularly the SUV's, 911's and 718's are different). Pre-pandemic it seemed many Porsche dealerships would not sell a used car that they could not CPO. If they did opt to floorplan instead of auction, it was often the one-owner cars with full service histories at that dealership.

How many people lease Macans vs own? What are the numbers?

So dealerships don't even want to deal with repairs. They manage this by quoting sky-high prices for parts and labor for out-of-warranty vehicles. They are designed, again by engineering and business model, to get mechanically totalled at the first sign or symptom of major problems. That third or fourth owner really takes the biggest risks. A $30K Macan Turbo or $25K Cayenne is going to cost at least half that in maintenance and repairs over a few years.

The profit is NOT in the sales. The profit is in repair. Ask any dealership where they make the money. Of course they want the repair business.

I have multiple threads here warning people about the TCO. People will buy a 7 year old Macan now for $35K and faint when hit with a Major Service bill. They forget its ALWAYS a Porsche with the corresponding service costs. Thats on THEM for not doing their due diligence.

Yes, I own a 2015 Macan S (bought used from the original owner) and it's a fantastic little SUV. But it's not really a Porsche, not like a 911, despite the advertising fluff.

This part I agree with. People buy into the advertising. They believe its a sports car, not.

 

[wls1425]

Razor > Razor blade

Porsche > Service/parts revenue.

Makes some sense, but I’m not sure a high end auto manufacturer’s reputation could survive on service/parts alone ie Lexus as an example, high quality autos with minimal repairs. Got to make some $$$$ on the cars they sell.

 

[Nifty]

Razor > Razor blade

Porsche > Service/parts revenue.

Makes some sense, but I’m not sure a high end auto manufacturer’s reputation could survive on service/parts alone ie Lexus as an example, high quality autos with minimal repairs. Got to make some $$$$ on the cars they sell.

From my experience, in order

1. Used car sales - especially reselling a lease (as CPO). Can account for more than half the revenue with some dealers.
2. Service (and parts). Take half of the retail part and that is close to the actual part cost
3. New Car sales, 3% - 8% margin for foreign, up around 16% for GM

 

[grim]

Razor > Razor blade

Porsche > Service/parts revenue.

Makes some sense, but I’m not sure a high end auto manufacturer’s reputation could survive on service/parts alone ie Lexus as an example, high quality autos with minimal repairs. Got to make some $$$$ on the cars they sell.

Porsche makes MUCH money on sales, that is, Porsche AG. Its easy to look up. "Porsche" is not your dealer. Im talking your dealer. Go read their annual reports, at one time, prior to the Macan, around $18K per unit. After the Macan, I think it dropped to about $14K/unit. Sunk costs. Just google it.

But Porsche does not own the US Dealerships, individuals, or large auto groups with maybe 20, 30 dealerships. I'm talking about the dealership. They also make it on the "add ons" you buy from them after sales, like ... after warranty warranties

I looked up how many Macans sold. Its 595,361 produced not including 21, add 21 and its going to be pushing 680,000

I understand the OP's frustration. But if someone is going to complain. Porsche is bad ....

then show the receipts. I provided that they had much problem with IMS and Cayenne Coolants lawsuits and paid out. Now do the math on the Macans. Of the 680,000, provide a single successful lawsuit. Of those cars, how many had the engines blow? 3? 30? 300? Links please

We have many links on oil issues, but how many really? 300? 400? out of 680K, and before some complains about the 95B.2, there are 427,127 95B.1 cars produced. How many blown engines? How many oil problems?

You all need the receipts. Anecdotal data is useless data.

 

[.101354]

How do you collect data when they are repaired at an independent? Honest question. Most people when faced with out of warrenty cost cannot afford to have a blown engine or pdk repaired at the dealer. I do know at the shop I ended up at, had 2 other Macans there for pdk repair. That is just one shop.
The numbers may be there if we know where to look? I appreciate everyone's point of view and suggestions. I just think Porsche can do better.
One view point if there are only a few Macans with catastrophic failure ...talking engine or transmission replacement..... it would be a drop in the bucket for Porsche to cover most if not all the cost.
I am sorry, I feel for this OP and an engine replacement on one that was not abused and maintained correctly at 60-70000 miles? That should not have happened.

 

[grim]

How do you collect data when they are repaired at an independent? Honest question.

I counted the oil leaks. I doubt there are 200 cars, out of nearly 500K sold, it means nothing. It means a LOT to the people effected, but for the big picture, not so much., I can't speak to engine failures because I only remember one in this forum. Nobody is going to go to an indy for an oil leak when PCNA will give some kind of goodwill.

Most people when faced with out of warrenty cost cannot afford to have a blown engine or pdk repaired at the dealer.

You were warned. Baruth in Nov 2013 warned all potential buyers. Quote

"The man who spent six figures on the Cayenne Turbo S can afford to take that loss, but his more modestly-accomplished younger brother can’t afford to take the same hit on his Macan. If you want to play in the mass market, you need to bring mass market skills to bear. There’s no evidence that Porsche has those skills"

There is MUCH truth to this:

"requirements for the 911, which are;

• Look like a 911
• Be more reliable than an ’87 Testarossa
• Or at least as reliable
• Or, failing that, be cheaper to fix"

You were warned in the Newcomers thread, Feb 2014, BEFORE the first Macan was delivered in the USA.

"5. Prepare yourself for the maintenance costs

The days of $30 quick oil changes are long gone. $30 will barely buy the oil filter. The cost of minor services might require a short term loan. The cost of a major service? An equity loan. Get into serious work needed? A new crate engine? Think serious money."

Not a joke, serious.

You were warned in 2019, Lots of people complaining about TCO, Nobody does their due diligence?

I do know at the shop I ended up at, had 2 other Macans there for pdk repair. That is just one shop.

PDKs are supposed to be lifetime units. I have read of PDKs having problems out of warranty but very rare. The question you need to ask is WHY? In one of the PDK threads the Porsche dealer employee indicated its because people crank up the HP but NOT the PDK. This is well known. People want free HP but don't upgrade the PDK. It doesnt work that way. So you need to know ALL the details, and not just "My PDK broke".

The numbers may be there if we know where to look?

If they were large, like the IMS problems, it would be everywhere, and lawsuits turning into class action suits. Do you see any?

I am sorry, I feel for this OP and an engine replacement on one that was not abused and maintained correctly at 60-70000 miles? That should not have happened.

I agree it should not. But what you need to know is the entire history of the vehicle. As the second owner, who knows how it was broken in? Did they follow the recommendations from the car maker? What else happened. Do they have the full provenance of the first 49,000 miles? Who knows how its was used or abused?

Many decades ago, I learned that by buying a used car, you just buy another persons problems. Did the first owner trading to Carmax "know" of any issues?

BTW, I forgot to mention the 991.1 GT3 fires. The entire first batch were recalled and new engines sent. Big stink. Did anyone here think to give pause about Porsche's Reliability when this was a HUGE issue in the Pcar world. Or my guess, they have no idea.

Did you know that every 991.1 GT3 original owner got a new engine?

https://autos.yahoo.com/news/porsche-putting-engine-every-911-gt3-fires-destroy-152900643.html

You don't know what you don't know

 

[grim]

Thats going to sound like I'm defending Porsche. No, I'm saying before one buys, do some research. Its all out there

1. Class action lawsuit on IMS
2. Class action lawsuit on coolant pipes
3. Everyone gets a new GT3 engine.



And suddenly producing 90,000 SUVs a year when they barely produced 50,000 units of all models.

 

[carsly]

And suddenly producing 90,000 SUVs a year when they barely produced 50,000 units of all models.

Not quite true. Volkswagen produced 8.8 million vehicles in 2021 Volkswagen car sales 2018 | Statista.

Porsche is as much a standalone company as is Cadillac (GM) or Lincoln (Ford), which is to say not at all. And those Cayennes and Macans are not bespoke Porsche designs, just look under the hood for VW and Audi markers on parts - of which you'll find quite a few. Heck, the new Macans don't even have Porsche engines any longer. If they can't figure it out producing 8.8 million vehicles a year, you have to wonder if they ever will.

 

[KenMacan]

Audi uses essentially the same engines!

 

[grim]

Not quite true. Volkswagen produced 8.8 million vehicles in 2021 Volkswagen car sales 2018 | Statista.

Porsche is as much a standalone company as is Cadillac (GM) or Lincoln (Ford), which is to say not at all. And those Cayennes and Macans are not bespoke Porsche designs, just look under the hood for VW and Audi markers on parts - of which you'll find quite a few. Heck, the new Macans don't even have Porsche engines any longer. If they can't figure it out producing 8.8 million vehicles a year, you have to wonder if they ever will.

Excuse me, I was thinking of US sales of 50,000. Porsche worldwide sales in 2011, 2012, and 2013, from their annual report, were 162K, 141K, and 119K, a tiny, tiny niche company, TINY.

Sorry, although the marque is under VAG, who owns VAG, the controlling interest in VAG? You know right? That would be Porsche SE. And who owns ALL the voting stock of Porsche SE? Look it up. Hint, the Porsche Family,

If you think they don't have influence over the marque, as they say, I got bridge to sell ya The Porsche family controls VAG. They have recently acquired MORE of the stock too.

About us

www.porsche-se.com

Of course the Macan platform is derived from the AUDI SUV platform. Thats a business decision. Audi gets the SUVs, Porsche gets the sports car. You really don't think that happened with the Porsche family knowing this?

 

[KenMacan]

Excuse me, I was thinking of US sales of 50,000. Porsche worldwide sales in 2011, 2012, and 2013, from their annual report, were 162K, 141K, and 119K, a tiny, tiny niche company, TINY.
Sorry, although the marque is under VAG, who owns VAG, the controlling interest in VAG? You know right? That would be Porsche SE. And who owns ALL the voting stock of Porsche SE? Look it up. Hint, the Porsche Family,

If you think they don't have influence over the marque, as they say, I got bridge to sell ya The Porsche family controls VAG. They have recently acquired MORE of the stock too.

About us

www.porsche-se.com

Of course the Macan platform is derived from the AUDI SUV platform. Thats a business decision. Audi gets the SUVs, Porsche gets the sports car. You really don't think that happened with the Porsche family knowing this?

And there are product line crossovers that target the same buyer like the SQ5 and of course RS models. I have owned 3 recent Audi models and know there is a difference. Broader market appeal with a more compliant ride and less steering feel for everyday use.

And for EVs you have the Audi GT versus the Taycan. But I would definitely buy a Porsche EV if I was spending 6 figures plus.

 

[.101354]

Grim you make good points. I guess this may mean that the Macan is a throwaway product of sorts then? A person buying a new 100K product probably can afford to replace an engine or a transmission but would he want too? People with money are usually smart. Some aren't lol but I think all get the point. Does it make sense to pay $25000 for a transmission on a car that has less than 70000 miles when the repair is a little more than one half the retail value? Heck no! People are not as passionate about Macans as they are the 911 etc. When you are passionate about something then that is different.
Ome of my points are repairs don't have to be as high as they are. There is really nothing mystical about our pdk transmission nor our engines. They can be fixed. But Porsche's stand is not to repair them but to replace them. Yes indy's can do it cheaper....but try to find the needed parts. For example...if you know the pdk is not working properly due to a bad solenoid in the mechtronic unit.....try to buy that solenoid. Porsche will not sell it to you. It should be a $50 part but no you have to buy the entire mechatronic unit with a retail price of over $3000. If you can find one. I am not sure but I think you can not obtain all the parts needed to rebuild our engines. Can we rebuild our turbo's?
I guess we could go around and around about this all day and really not get anywhere. I respect everyone's opinion, appreciate viewpoint sharing. I have learned much on this forum...most of it good...as a result of us all doing that. Let's not stop👍
It is a shame though. Porsche can do better. But then again the ice engined Macan will not be made much longer anyway.