Following

 

Despite the torrential rains here in NJ today I soldiered along with my service appointment for the "two-bolt fix" to get the repair done and bring all of you the service invoice complete with part numbers for the steel bolts and aluminum washers. YMMV with your dealership/repair shop of choice.

$113.49 was my total:

• 30 mins of labor at $190/hr = $95
• 2 steel bolts = $2.04
• 2 aluminum washers = $4.70
• Sales tax = $7.05

Getting this done before there was a meaningful leak or having to deal with an engine-out service... priceless!

 

Despite the torrential rains here in NJ today I soldiered along with my service appointment for the "two-bolt fix" to get the repair done and bring all of you the service invoice complete with part numbers for the steel bolts and aluminum washers. YMMV with your dealership/repair shop of choice.

$113.49 was my total:

• 30 mins of labor at $190/hr = $95
• 2 steel bolts = $2.04
• 2 aluminum washers = $4.70
• Sales tax = $7.05

Getting this done before there was a meaningful leak or having to deal with an engine-out service... priceless!

View attachment 254197

Just got a quote from Chandler Porsche in AZ to preform this two bolt upgrade. I do not know if there is a leak but glad I checked for a price. Chandler quoted $750.00 for the work I told them no thanks and will now take the car to an inde for the oil change as well. Another stroke job by a Porsche dealer. I used to travel 45 minutes one way to do business with them now they’ve lost all further business.

One word of advice get a price quote from your dealer first as some are not fair priced!

 

So is it always the same two bolts....in the same locations???

 

That repair looks to be cost effective, let's hope it resolves the issue for you @carsly

Mine will be going to the dealer in July-ish for an inspection of the oil issue, so I'm preparing to walk that line to get a fix. Mine is a 2015 S, with minor oil seepage, and I am not the 1st owner.

Since the bolts are steel and the block and cover are aluminum, in this application I (this is just me...I'm not a Porsche tech) would use a basic silver grade or copper grade anti-seize, and reduce the torque by 25%. As long as the clamping force is adequate (which it should be in that location/application), you can use anti-seize no problem. A little anti-seize goes a long way, a light coat would be more than enough here to avoid galvanic corrosion.

Myself, and others, have certainly used a light coat of anti-seize on the hub mating surfaces when installing alloy wheels on steel hubs, specifically to avoid rust and galv. corrosion. And I agree...anti-seize is not recommended on the threads of lug bolts, but my understanding is to not use it because the vibration and rotation of the wheels and suspension, which with additional thread lubrication, could cause the lugs to counter rotate and fall out of the hub/wheel. Not necessarily just because of the torque value and disparate metals.

But what do I know...I certainly do not want the experience of my wheels falling off because of some silver graphite lube

 

But what do I know...I certainly do not want the experience of my wheels falling off because of some silver graphite lube

No reason why we can't use a threadlock here, rather than a sealant [despite what I said above]. For corrosion or seizing to occur, air [oxidizing agent] with moisture are key elements. Exclude air and moisture by using a threadlocking compound and the conditions that can cause problems are removed.

The correct torque for these screws was mentioned earlier in this thread [I'll check up on it later] but I'd be slightly wary of reducing the torque. For M8 in A2/304 grade stainless the recommended torque is 21Nm dry or 19 Nm lubricated. For a light "lubricant" like threadlocking compunds, 20Nm would be fine. A 25% decrease in torque could cause the screws to loosen over time, particularly if an anti-seize, non-setting sealant, is used. Something like loctite 222, low strength or 243 medium strength would make it possible to undo the screws later if needed. If you're really ACD you could use 7471 primer for low or 7649 for medium strength loctite if you choose stainless steel fasteners but for the std. steel Porsche screws, the primer wouldn't be needed.

The replacement screws provided by Porsche might have a rating visible on top if they're anything above medium carbon steel, which would be a guide to applicable torque. I'd guess that they're nothing fancy but for this application high strength isn't essential [nor would the aluminiun alloy screws have been HT].

Jules

 

Thanks, fingers crossed. In my case, I wasn't losing any oil that I could measure (either via on-board display or during my annual oil changes), had no leaks that reached the underside of the car and just thought to have the dealer take a look-see during a brake fluid flush due to paranoia. Bolts were described as loose but not broken (thankfully) and no meaningful seepage/weeping but clearly something was evident on visual inspection. Rather than wait for a real leak I figured I'd be a guinea pig and go for this fix. I'm big on preventive maintenance.

If nothing else, dealers usually warranty their work for two years so if I end up having a leak later they should stand behind their diagnosis and repair for the next couple years buying me some peace of mind. Best $113.49 spent and information shared back with this community as I've amply benefitted as a member the last couple of years. It's the least I could do to support everyone here.

 

The issue of corrosion caused by different metals has got way out of proportion here. Pretty much every alloy engined motor bike or car made in the last 50 years has used steel fasteners in combination with aluminium heads or blocks without causing issues. There are several reasons for this ...

* The conditions that favour galvanic reactions are not there. An engine bay is protected from water and chemicals like salt plus air doesn't easily flow into the tight joints of thread-screw connections.

* Perhaps more importantly, the metal that might be corroded here by galvanic reaction, is not the steel but the aluminium, so if we have a couple of hundred kilos of aluminium engine block up against a few grams of fastener, what will happen is that the aluminium could [in unfavourable conditions] corrode and protect the steel. [Incidentally, steel is not a noble metal]. The net result will be an immeasurable loss of aluminium, the creation of some aluminium oxide and not rusting of the steel.

The difficulty with this Macan screw issue is the "out of sight out of mind" factor. Yes, you could probably use either a threadlock or anti-seize quite effectively because there are versions of both that would work here but for me I'd like to be sure that the fastener will not come loose at some point in time and I feel that a threadlock would do a better job in that respect.

Finally, Porsche are [apparently] recommending using steel screws and I'd be willing to bet they're not stipulating any form of either threadlock or anti-seize compound as part of the job.

The key issue here is to find a fastener that won't snap like the original part and can be tightened to such a torque as is required to keep the TCC from leaking. It's not really a great challenge but it is an opportunity to improve on the original Porsche configuration.

Jules

 

The issue of corrosion caused by different metals has got way out of proportion here. Pretty much every alloy engined motor bike or car made in the last 50 years has used steel fasteners in combination with aluminium heads or blocks without causing issues. There are several reasons for this ...

Not really, go onto thesamba.com, audizine.com or rennlist.com and you'll find like 2 decades of threads that go back and forth lol. And if you really want to have fun with semantics, go to bobistheoilguy.com. Seriously though, there will be someone actually doing the repair themselves, wanting to know what do to...either threadlock or anti-sieze. Like you said, the real answer is probably NOTHING, as is probably what Porsche is doing in their shop.

Neither of us is wrong, but like I stated, I would use anti-seize for the reasons previously given, and is strictly based on my experience turning wrenches and my personal choice based on that. And, if I ever do the repair myself, (which may happen if the dealership wants to collect more than I think I can do the work for), I will use a little anti-seize, and will report back my experience. I expect the results to be very anti-climatic

I could have sworn that someone on here did replace the bolts some time ago, and posted some results...IIRC, @Santirx maybe? I can't remember.

When you do yours @acronymous, let us know your experience and what you do.

As this thread grows, we'll see more results form others as well!

 

This is a very helpful and informative thread. I have a 2017 Macan Turbo that was just diagnosed with this issue on Friday during a routine oil change at a reputable independent shop. Car is 7 months out of warranty with only 10,400 miles. Dealer wants to do its own diagnosis before seeking any goodwill coverage from Porsche. They’re telling me the diagnosis alone will be $450-$900. Can I get a sanity check here? Isn’t it crazy to charge up to $900 for a problem that has already been diagnosed and may only be a couple hundred dollars to repair? I’m willing to pay something for the diagnosis ($150?) but up up $900 seems like a rip.

 

I paid $191 CDN (~$150 USD). This was fully refunded when the leak was confirmed. Your dealer appears to be scamming you.

 

Find another dealer.

i asked my dealer to take a look during my brake fluid flush. Diagnostic charge? Zero.

The key is ask them to look while getting some other service done. For a diagnostic only you‘re going to get hit for the time. And yes, $900 is them taking your wallet and laughing at you.

Find another dealer.

 

I would be wary if you're out of warranty. Service advisors will try to deploy a way to throw an engine-out job at you because they know they could bill you for whatever amount whereas if you're under warranty, they're limited by the warranty rate. Hence another reason why if you're under warranty, they will NOT perform an engine-out procedure (anymore) to address the infamous leak but instead, go with the engine bolt replacement to supplement my previous statement (#32 & #35) on page 2 of this thread.

 

Well I’m back… I had the “two bolt fix” done by the dealer March of 2021. It appeared to have worked and my last oil change i noticed a very small amount of oil and just chalked that up to residual from the underbody cover.
Fast forward a few months to a week ago. My a/c went out and being me I decided I would fix it myself. Used some dye and found the leak. Ordered the replacement low pressure hose and proceeded to attempt a fix. Very quickly I realized that this was not really something I wanted to mess with. They really have stuff packed in there. Anyways… this allowed me the opportunity to dig a little further than I have had to before. I removed the driver wheel liner and noticed a pretty fair amount of oil build up on the intercooler hoses and the area around. Pulled an intercooler house and it was dry inside. I moved back over to the under side passenger area where i had found fresh oil and began to move my way up. I ended up on the top of the motor under the engine cover where I tracked the leak to the “valley” below each of the valve covers where the injectors are. There was a decent amount of oil that has been there for a while so I mixed up some simple green and cleaned it off.
Fast forward a week and I decided that should be enough time to see where the leak was coming from. I noticed that there is a small amount of oil in the areas which had previously been clean an noticed that oil appeared to be leaking from timing cover bolts. As I looked closer I noticed that one of the bolts on the passenger side was missing the head (I’ll circle that in red). I grabbed a T30 and decided to check all the other ones I could see/reach. Using only my hand I found three other loose bolts. Two of which were broken off and barely hanging on.
I called Porsche Plano whereI has the initial fix was done (not really sure what kind of answer I was looking for…) and get disconnected twice trying to contact a service advisor. Try again and get a parts guy and explain briefly my problem. He said that the same aluminum bolt is still recommended.
So here I sit in my thinking chair wondering where I should go from here. I’m out of warranty so I’m thinking I will order the steel bolts and replace the ones I can reach. I can only assume the service department never checked these bolts the first time. One of the bolts I may not be able to replace because the end is not exposed. (I’ll circle the three bolts that were still in the cover in yellow.)
So I guess this rant may belong in this thread. Maybe the oil leak thread. Just wanted everybody to be aware that there are potentially more broken bolts. I haven’t seen anything ever mentioned about these. I’m struggling to enjoy this vehicle…

 

Great investigative work but it does seem to confirm that these bolts, all of them, are not up to the job. No wonder Porsche isn't saying anything. A cursory check of the number of these fasteners used to hold the engine together is truly scary and a recall to replace all of them might as well be "install a new engine".

Seems to confirm my point above about the possibility of having broken screws even before there's any oil leaks.

The one you can't replace ... is that the one circled in yellow in pic 2? If so, I think you've just made a good case for replacing each and every screw that has goes into something with a blind end.

Jules

 

Great investigative work but it does seem to confirm that these bolts, all of them, are not up to the job. No wonder Porsche isn't saying anything. A cursory check of the number of these fasteners used to hold the engine together is truly scary and a recall to replace all of them might as well be "install a new engine".

Seems to confirm my point above about the possibility of having broken screws even before there's any oil leaks.

The one you can't replace ... is that the one circled in yellow in pic 2? If so, I think you've just made a good case for replacing each and every screw that has goes into something with a blind end.

Jules

YES!

IIRC, the root cause of the TCC oil leak is the fact that one or more of these Torx fasteners has failed to remain
securely attached to the engine block. Initially it was reported that they (the Torx screws) were fracturing. If the TCC does not remain
securely clamped to the engine block, it will result in some amount of oil seepage past the sealant and the metal gasket(s).

 

Sorry for the formatting guys. My thinking chair involves alcohol.

Yes, the yellow circle in the second picture is going to be the problem bolt.

It’s interesting that the new bolts come with a washer. I’m guessing to keep it from moving? It looks like there are two more a little deeper that I’ll be able to get to as well. I’m really hoping that will get the job done. If it doesn’t I’m not totally sure I have the desire to remove the whole front of the car… but I’m cheap and I have trust issues so that’s probably what will end up happening.

Was the torque spec for the new steel bolt decided? I feel like I’ve screenshot a bunch of stuff but I can’t find it. I think for the time being I’ll order eight bolts. Six for the top that i just found and then I’m going to go ahead and replace the two that Porsche did since I don’t trust them.

I’ve got some video I took that I may try and post on YouTube. I’ll need to edit it some but I’ve never messed with that so it might be a few days.

 

Another brief update. I called around to a few dealerships today to see if i could get ahold of the bolts and washers. Porsche Dallas was the only one that had the bolts and washers. He had eight of them but they were all reserved. I asked him if he could see what they were reserved for and he said they were all for Macans…

FCP Euro has them in stock for a lot cheaper if anybody is needing to order some.

 

[QUOTE="Bingr, post: 2700829, member: 155993
Another brief update. I called around to a few dealerships today to see if i could get ahold of the bolts and washers. Porsche Dallas was the only one that had the bolts and washers. He had eight of them but they were all reserved. I asked him if he could see what they were reserved for and he said they were all for Macans…

FCP Euro has them in stock for a lot cheaper if anybody is needing to order some.
[/QUOTE]

If you're talking about the steel screws they supply I wouldn't be too troubled about a genuine Porsche part. According to their part number they are screws for retaining one of the air bags. The washer does matter. Is it a split spring type washer, a wave spring washer or a plain [steel?] washer?

 

Yeah definitely not concerned about the steel bolts. FCP has the genuine stuff. The bolts were actually VW and the washers were Porsche. I’ll have to report back on the washers after i get them. Nobody has an actual picture of them so as of now it’s a mystery. Looks like they will be here by the end of the week hopefully.

 

So are the aluminum bolts recommended as Santirx used or the steel with aluminum washers that UWdawgfan used?

 

Porsches updated service bulletin is recommending steel bolts with aluminum washers.

 

During a routine oil change my Indy mechanic found oil "seepage" on the TCC of my 2015 Macan S. He recommended the two bolt replacement and quoted me $600 for the repair (his bills usually run about 65% of my local dealer charges) They called Fidelity Warranty (extended warranty) on my behalf and Fidelity will cover all but my $250 deductible. Before proceeding, decided to check with my local Porsche dealer who also will do two bolt replacement and will also deal with Fidelity as well. They did not give me an estimate for the job.Given that I'll be paying the same $250 deductible at both places, decided to give the Porsche dealer my business on the off chance that the job turns out to be more involved once they get into it.

 

Please see the attached service bulletin. I believe, it addresses all the questions.

 

The link is to a service bulletin for the Cayenne MY 2011-2018. Is there another specifically for the Macan?

Symptom-based workshop manual
Service
210/21 ENU 1533
1
Engine Symptom - Loose/Broken Screws and Oil Leaks in the Area of the Chain Housing Cover and/or Camshaft Phaser (SY 210/21)
Revision: Model Year: Model Series: Concerns: Symptom:
This bulletin replaces bulletin WTY 2000.2, dated March 30, 2021.
As of 2011 up to 2018
Cayenne (92A)
Chain housing cover and camshaft phaser
Oil leak at the chain housing cover and/or camshaft phaser or a loose or broken screw in the chain housing cover.  Screws for chain housing cover

 

Thanks 911_Love. Interesting but not surprising that Porsche have the gall to put out a glossy service bulletin to cover this issue while still not taking responsibility for shoddy design.

Jules

 

I've been talking to a few dealers around the area the get a quote on the fix and the prices have been all over the place. I'm wondering what others have been quoted.

Dealer 1: ~$650
Dealer 2: ~$1000
Dealer 3: ~$1200

All of which are saying they aren't even sure when they would be able to do the fix because the bolts are very much on backorder...

 

I posted my quote, and then a copy of my actual service invoice once the work was completed, in post #51 in this thread. Others have shared quotes as well.

I can't speak to your dealers, but if you read the bulletin there is a triage process. I expect some of the variance is due to which bolts need to be replaced and/or if they are loose or already broken (more labor). And of course, profiteering.

 

I think this is what you want.

 

I've had a bit of trouble with the so called "two bolt fix", shown here as an extract from the pdf. because checking back on the work done by Santirx and Bingr the problem isn't "two bolt" it's at least "4 bolt" which includes 1 and 2 as shown here [on the left side 1 is top left corner of the left "wing", two is top right corner of the right "wing" of the TCC.]

In addition I think I'm right in saying that Santirx and Bingr replaced the screw on the top right corner of the left wing of the cover and the top left screw of the right wing of the cover. [Sorry, arrows might have made this easier to understand but I think the words are clear enough.]

For anyone having the "two bolt fix" surely a "4 screw (they're actually screws in this situation not bolts, sorry for the pedantry) fix" would make sense and add very little to both the parts and labor?

Jules

 

View attachment 256954
I've had a bit of trouble with the so called "two bolt fix", shown here as an extract from the pdf. because checking back on the work done by Santirx and Bingr the problem isn't "two bolt" it's at least "4 bolt" which includes 1 and 2 as shown here [on the left side 1 is top left corner of the left "wing", two is top right corner of the right "wing" of the TCC.]

In addition I think I'm right in saying that Santirx and Bingr replaced the screw on the top right corner of the left wing of the cover and the top left screw of the right wing of the cover. [Sorry, arrows might have made this easier to understand but I think the words are clear enough.]

For anyone having the "two bolt fix" surely a "4 screw (they're actually screws in this situation not bolts, sorry for the pedantry) fix" would make sense and add very little to both the parts and labor?

Jules

@acronymous, in my case, I replaced exactly those screws, labeled 1 and 2 in your drawing.

 

So, leaks didn’t get fixed. They had the wrong bolts. The correct ones are on back order from Porsche.
I put a quart in today. Maybe a month wait. Probably only drive it locally for now. They fixed some other minor issues. Dave T.

 

Several weeks ago I called the service department at my Porsche dealer. I told them that my 2017 GTS (production competition date of 20 March 2016) had the TCC oil leak and that I had one year remaining on my Fidelity extended warranty. Without hesitation their reply was "our next loaner car is available on June 26, 2022. Drop the car off, and we will need to car for several weeks to take the engine out". So I did. The car was available on July 21, 2022. The invoice amounted to $10,283.83. Fidelity paid for everything except my $250 deductible. Obviously, there were more than 2 bolts to fix as you can see from the attached 3 pages of invoice

. Frankly, this reminds me of my BMW 650 N63 "stealth recall" of several years ago. That is, known issues but only addressed if reported by the customer.

 

Several weeks ago I called the service department at my Porsche dealer. I told them that my 2017 GTS (production competition date of 20 March 2016) had the TCC oil leak and that I had one year remaining on my Fidelity extended warranty. Without hesitation their reply was "our next loaner car is available on June 26, 2022. Drop the car off, and we will need to car for several weeks to take the engine out". So I did. The car was available on July 21, 2022. The invoice amounted to $10,283.83. Fidelity paid for everything except my $250 deductible. Obviously, there were more than 2 bolts to fix as you can see from the attached 3 pages of invoice
. Frankly, this reminds me of my BMW 650 N63 "stealth recall" of several years ago. That is, known issues but only addressed if reported by the customer.

Glad to see Fidelity covered it.

 

Just had this done at the dealer yesterday.

$740 (less 10% PCA discount).

Moving on...