The PDK is "capable" of putting more power to the ground for sure, (see 911 turbo, GT3) but what hard parts are different?

I have seen claims (in German forums and elsewhere) that the Macan PDK is more closely related to the Audi DL501 unit (with some hardware mods and new software) than to the units used in the 911 or Panamera. Some definitive answer would be helpful in guessing possible HP/torque limits - PDK is whatever Porsche decides to call PDK. An early C&D blog review raises the point and then claims the Macan PDK is "genuine Porsche hardware", which sounds good, but doesn't mean anything. I don't care much, as the gearbox is just fantastic, but I would caution against extrapolating from 911 or Panamera Turbos.

 

I have seen claims (in German forums and elsewhere) that the Macan PDK is more closely related to the Audi DL501 unit (with some hardware mods and new software) than to the units used in the 911 or Panamera. Some definitive answer would be helpful in guessing possible HP/torque limits - PDK is whatever Porsche decides to call PDK. An early C&D blog review raises the point and then claims the Macan PDK is "genuine Porsche hardware", which sounds good, but doesn't mean anything. I don't care much, as the gearbox is just fantastic, but I would caution against extrapolating from 911 or Panamera Turbos.

This is the first I've heard about any direct relation to Audi hardware for the PDK in the Macan. Perhaps the blame is on me for so heavily believing the marketing onslaught, but we've heard all along that the AWD system is "the same" as that from the 911 C4 models, including the rear-drive bias. I'm not aware of any Audi with the same torque split as this, but I'm admittedly not at all up to speed on their latest products. Can you share a link or other information that support this parallel to Audi?

The fact that the Macan is rated to tow over 4,400 lbs tells me that the trans is probably strong enough to deal pretty well with some more boost.

I think this is a reasonable thought but I recall when the original Touareg V10 TDI came out way back when that its tow capacity was the same as that of the V8 model. The reason for that was the frame and braking system that was shared between the cars was more limiting than the engine and transmission in the mighty diesel. So tow rating isn't entirely about the drivetrain. What we don't know yet is just where the limits are for the clutches. Who's going to find out first?

 

They lowered the tow rating after a lot of us already had our orders in. Pretty much means it won't tow much. Think the PDK is the weak link in the towing equation.

Right. They lowered it from well over 5,000lbs. What I've read is it was done because of the rear brakes. Regardless, 911s and Panameras can't tow 4000 lbs, so the fact that the Macan can tells me the PDK box is probably stronger than people are giving it credit for.

 

Right. They lowered it from well over 5,000lbs. What I've read is it was done because of the rear brakes. Regardless, 911s and Panameras can't tow 4000 lbs, so the fact that the Macan can tells me the PDK box is probably stronger than people are giving it credit for.

991s/911s and Panamera's were never designed to tow anything. The Macan absent a braked trailer can't tow anything. Even with a lightweight aluminum braked trailer like I have, it can't tow that either. Still believe the PDK is the weak link. Cayennes can tow much more than Macans.

 

Given that Porsche provides a towing limit spec...and has a receiver hitch as an available option leads me to believe...contrary to what I believe is an opinion as opposed to a stated fact...that the Macan actually CAN tow "something."

 

Likely the same as the kind of capability as the S6 with its 4.0 litre twin turbo v8 420 hp, 7 speed dual clutch.

The S4 also runs a 7 speed dual clutch off the 3.0 litre supercharged v6 333 hp.

Highly under rated figures on both of these cars too when Dyno tested.

The rs7 Dyno shows 589 hp and it didn't get a dual clutch.

 

991s/911s and Panamera's were never designed to tow anything. The Macan absent a braked trailer can't tow anything. Even with a lightweight aluminum braked trailer like I have, it can't tow that either. Still believe the PDK is the weak link. Cayennes can tow much more than Macans.

Lol. I think we are doing circles here. I'm saying that the fact that Porsche allows the Macan to tow 4k lbs means that the PDK box has plenty of strength to take on some more boost. How much boost we don't know yet...but the tow capacity by itself, considering the stress that 2 tons puts on gears and clutch packs, gives me hope that the trans is relatively stout for a PDK box.

911s and Panameras, because they were never designed to tow anything, wouldn't necessarily have a reason to have a beefed up PDK box, while I think the Macan might because it can tow.

How much a Cayenne can tow with a totally different transmission is irrelevant to what I'm saying. Beefed up autos are always stouter than dual-clutches, regardless of the manufacturer.

 

Lol. I think we are doing circles here. I'm saying that the fact that Porsche allows the Macan to tow 4k lbs means that the PDK box has plenty of strength to take on some more boost. How much boost we don't know yet...but the tow capacity by itself, considering the stress that 2 tons puts on gears and clutch packs, gives me hope that the trans is relatively stout for a PDK box.

How much a Cayenne can tow with a totally different transmission is irrelevant to what I'm saying.

4K lbs is a wimpy tow rating - keep in mind that is with a braked trailer. Unbreaked is a rounding error.

 

@whoosh and @Cloudplay

Here's a article that states the exact opposite, in fact the author thought it might be a derivative, but was told specifically it was all Porsche.

2. The Seven-Speed PDK Is a Porsche Transmission

Our American-market Q5 uses an eight-speed, torque-converter automatic, but European Q5s are available with a seven-speed dual-clutch automatic. That fact made us suspicious that the Macan’s PDK transmission, with seven forward gears and the same two-clutch technology, was actually the Audi S tronic gearbox working under a pseudonym. It’s not. We’re told the Macan’s transmission is genuine Porsche hardware like the PDK used in the Panamera.

Seven Things You Need To Know About the 2015 Porsche Macan ?*News ?*Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog

 

@whoosh and @Cloudplay

Here's a article that states the exact opposite, in fact the author thought it might be a derivative, but was told specifically it was all Porsche.



Seven Things You Need To Know About the 2015 Porsche Macan ?*News ?*Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog

This quote (translated by me, see my earlier post or the article below for the original German):
"We then also developed a dual-clutch gearbox; a derivative of the DL501 Audi gearbox, with completely new software and an entirely new all-wheel system, the Porsche-Hang-On-Allwheelsystem...I see the Porsche changes as an opportunity and a risk at the same time."

is from Porsche Head of Development Wolfgang Hatz, from Feb 11 2014. It is from a German car manufacturing trade publication, and the original is here
Porsche-Entwicklungsvorstand Wolfgang Hatz: "Einen Vierzylinder werden wir beim Macan sicherlich machen"

The C&D blog entry doesn't say it was "all Porsche". Porsche doesn't manufacture gearboxes. The C&D guy was told something that he translated into "genuine Porsche hardware", as I already quoted - that means whatever Porsche wants it to mean. It is a Porsche derivative of the Audi DL501, that's just a fact. Whether that makes it more or less Porsche than the ZF PDK in the Panamera I don't know. I also don't care much, as I think it is maybe the best gearbox I have ever experienced.

 

They lowered the tow rating after a lot of us already had our orders in. Pretty much means it won't tow much. Think the PDK is the weak link in the towing equation.

During my off-road factory test drive at Leipzig, there were two hills: a 45 degree hill for the Cayenne and a 35 degree hill for the Macan. According to the Porsche instructor, the Macan PDK was the limiting factor for the 45 degree hill - the Cayenne automatic handles it better. The 35 degree hill was steep enough (completely blind going over the top - drove between two poles).

 

And in other news... Someone split hairs...

 

+1 and now back to the impressions of the Turbo. You are up @driveextreme .........

 

And in other news... Someone split hairs...

Ha ha

 

New home for previous discussion in a different thread...

 

I believe Porsche was one the first to launch Dual Clutch boxes on consumer vehicles during the 997 model generation. They were built by ZF but I don't know if they are ZF designed or Porsche designed. I would assume the latter.

 

Ok, here we go again. What do I think are the facts?

* The Macan PDK is a derivative of the Audi DL501 s-tronic. Why do I think so? Because Wolfgang Hatz says so:
Porsche-Entwicklungsvorstand Wolfgang Hatz: "Einen Vierzylinder werden wir beim Macan sicherlich machen"

Why do I believe what he says? Because he is Hatz is a member of Porsche AG Board of Management in charge of Research and Development, and is additionally Head of Engines and Transmissions Development for the Volkswagen Group:
Wolfgang Hatz

I don't see how anyone would want to argue with that.

* So what about the DL501? It was supposedly developed by Audi (see dual-clutch wikipedia entry). Some parts are made by Borg-Warner (wet clutches, some valves). There are two sources that claim that it is manufactured in a Volkswagen factory:

"Alle Varianten (DQ200, DQ250, DQ500 und DL501) werden im Volkswagenwerk Kassel gefertigt." -> "All variants [of the 7 speed DSG] (DQ200, DQ250, DQ500 and DL501) are manufactured in the Volkswagen factory Kassel"
Fahrzeuggetriebe ? Wikipedia

"Erstmals wird der Standort Baunatal auch für Porsche fertigen, sagt Stumpf. Das große DQ-Getriebe DL 501 ist für den Porsche Cajun gedacht – die Light-Version des Porsche Cayenne. " (I translated that earlier in the thread)
VW Werk Kassel erhält Milliarden - und fertigt für Porsche | Wirtschaft

* Why do I discount the C&D statement that "We’re told the Macan’s transmission is genuine Porsche hardware like the PDK used in the Panamera"? Because it doesn't mean anything. Porsche doesn't manufacture the Panamera PDK (ZF does) or the Macan PDK (VW does). Both gearboxes were developed by Porsche in some form of collaboration with the supplier and are presumably not used in the exact some form by anyone else. So if Porsche wants to call them both "genuine Porsche", why not.


* While there were some claims that it would make more sense for Porsche to use the same ZF unit as in other models, one needs to recall that the Macan is based on the MLB VW group platform, and other models on this platform (A6, RS5, Q5 3.0 TDI) also use the DL501.

So, for me all the evidence points to the Macan gearbox being a Porsche-developed variant of the Audi DL501, manufactured in the Kassel VW factory, using key components from suppliers like Borg Warner. Borg Warner for example supplies parts for the ubiquitous ZF 8-speed, so who knows if there are also some ZF connections to the Macan gearbox (either parts or collaboration in development, or licensed technology), but it does not appear to be a ZF gearbox in the way the Panamera gearbox is.

 

Just wanted to come back to this, because there really is a dearth of concrete information about who manufactures the Macan PDK, and how much of it is Audi or VW (DSG) derived.

I think you've made one leap here that is not proven, and that is whether ZF manufactures this box. It would seem fairly key as ZF makes the other Porsche PDKs while VW sources B-W parts for the DSG and makes them in another factory. You have a quote above that states all variants of the DL501 are made by VW, but to me that could read: all VW/Audi variants (DL/DQ), but not necessarily the PDK. There are sources on the internet (I have been through a ton of material, a lot of it translated from German), claiming the Macan PDK is in fact made by ZF. Curiously (and somewhat disappointingly), ZF does not list the Macan on their website.

The general sense I get is the the Macan PDK is a variant of the DL501, certainly uses the case and mounts, but ideally the gears/ratios and certainly the programming and design tweaks including the AWD interface are Porsche, made by ZF.

All-wheel-drive, with electronically controlled, map-controlled multi-plate clutch. - from the Porsche website.

Does this really mean much, or do we know if this box is really just a reprogrammed DSG ? Nope.

 

Instead of adding to my lengthy previous reply let me also quote another relevant fact. The whole discussion arose from speculation about the torque limit of the Macan PDK. Most places quote the Audi DL501 as originally having a 550Nm torque capacity, which coincides with the Macan turbo peak torque. For the European SQ5 (peak torque 650Nm), Audi switches to the ZF 8 speed automatic. So if one is after bulletproof reliability, it is not obvious how much room there is with the Macan PDK (580Nm should be ok, as that is the 3.0 TDI peak torque). There are also claims of reliable 700Nm tuned Audis with the DL501, but the standards for considering something sufficiently reliable might be different between tuners and a major manufacturer.

 

Nm, misread something

 

My understanding was that Porsche used the Audi trans case and put the Porsche PDK guts inside.

 

Anyway, it works right?

 

Don't forget the PDK is used in the 991 turbo S.

Now we need a Macan owner to volunteer his vehicle for 50 launch controls

If the PDK in the Macan is 'Porsche', then it should be no issue. The real question is whether that PDK after repeated launches will still work properly at 100,000miles.

How Many Times Can You Use Launch Control on a 2014 Porsche 911 Turbo?

 

Don't forget the PDK is used in the 991 turbo S.

Now we need a Macan owner to volunteer his vehicle for 50 launch controls

If the PDK in the Macan is 'Porsche', then it should be no issue. The real question is whether that PDK after repeated launches will still work properly at 100,000miles.

How Many Times Can You Use Launch Control on a 2014 Porsche 911 Turbo?

@Dyim Wow! Does anyone know if the computer tracks how many times this is used on a vehicle?

 

From the main manual pdf:

Stress on components increases dramatically
when starting with maximum acceleration in
comparison with driving off normally. The number
of times you can drive off with Launch Control is
therefore limited. Using Launch Control too often
can damage the transmission. f Only use Launch Control very carefully.

I don't know if this means lifetime, session, temperature limits or is just a CYA statement

 

I will not be surprised if somehow Porsche can track how many times LC is used. I am pretty sure I read somewhere there is also a log that they can pull to check engine over-revs. There is no question in my mind LC probably incur more wear and tear on the PDK and can potentially hasten its demise in the long run.

AFAIK, using LC does not void the warranty.

 

Launch controll

I have a BMW 3 series and the manual says exactly the same as Porsches, it s not recomended to use launch control to frequently.

 

Hello, it is sure that the Macan PDK is produced by VW Kassel. Assembled by Handtmann. Mr. Hatz said:
Then we have also developed a dual clutch transmission ; a derivative of the DL501 - Audi - gear ,complete with new software and a whole new wheel drive system,the Porsche hang-on - wheel drive system .
It is the same like in the Audi Q5. Sorry thats fact.

 

Facts require sources. So. . . source please ? Porsche says they developed this PDK although "derived" from a DL501 (which has no clear meaning), so no it is not "same like in the Audi Q5", unless you have more factual information.

 

Well, it seems that for us Macan S owners, tuning the car to reach stock Macan Turbo power levels should be safe for the PDK.

 

Hi, here is also a link in German for my statement(best you use the translate option)
VW Werk Kassel erhält Milliarden - und fertigt für Porsche | Wirtschaft
The DL501 – 7 speed Longitudinal is also build-in in Audi A4, S4, A5, S5, Q5, RS5

 

That looks like verification that the Macan PDK is built in Kassel by VW. Interesting. Now just need to know what the actual difference is between the DL501 and this PDK.

Thanks for the link.

 

According to Porsche when I went to training on the Macan last year, Porsche is using the Audi transmission with improved clutch pack and different control module (programing). the PTM clutch pack is in the transfer case bolted to the back of this transmission, its the same Borg Warner transfer case we use in the Cayenne. This PDK also has a maximum torque rating of 400 lb ft and is why the Macan is detuned compared to the Cayenne and Pananera turbo sixes. Dual clutch tranmissions are not inteded for extreame offroad use, at very low speed you are slipping the clutch pack the entire time, this is why the Cayenne is designed for true off road use with its 8 speed tiptronic and the Macan can go off road but not the same extent as the Cayenne. The tow rating is based off the platform and not the transmission. The Audi Q5 with a traditional 8 speed has the same tow rating as the Macan so it wouldn't be the transmission keeping the capacity down.
For anyone bothered by the fact that Audi makes our transmissions, just look to the other 50% of the componets on the car also being supplied by VAG as well as the body in white and most of the hard parts on the car sans engine. Porsche has also used parts sharing for years on the high production Cayenne, its how costs are kept down. Our Cayenne VR6, Diesel and Hybrid are also all Audi engines and the same ( Asian) tiptronic transmission has been used in all the Cayennes, Touregs and Q7s.

 

Thanks for the info @England. Look forward to further insights from you. Welcome to the forum.

 

Yes thanks @England great tech info. Welcome to the forum. Good to have a Porsche insider with the real info on the Macan.