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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited by Moderator)
Moved thread hijacked posts from Divexxtreme's review thread here...

- whoosh
 

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The PDK is "capable" of putting more power to the ground for sure, (see 911 turbo, GT3) but what hard parts are different?
I have seen claims (in German forums and elsewhere) that the Macan PDK is more closely related to the Audi DL501 unit (with some hardware mods and new software) than to the units used in the 911 or Panamera. Some definitive answer would be helpful in guessing possible HP/torque limits - PDK is whatever Porsche decides to call PDK. An early C&D blog review raises the point and then claims the Macan PDK is "genuine Porsche hardware", which sounds good, but doesn't mean anything. I don't care much, as the gearbox is just fantastic, but I would caution against extrapolating from 911 or Panamera Turbos.
 

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I have seen claims (in German forums and elsewhere) that the Macan PDK is more closely related to the Audi DL501 unit (with some hardware mods and new software) than to the units used in the 911 or Panamera. Some definitive answer would be helpful in guessing possible HP/torque limits - PDK is whatever Porsche decides to call PDK. An early C&D blog review raises the point and then claims the Macan PDK is "genuine Porsche hardware", which sounds good, but doesn't mean anything. I don't care much, as the gearbox is just fantastic, but I would caution against extrapolating from 911 or Panamera Turbos.
This is the first I've heard about any direct relation to Audi hardware for the PDK in the Macan. Perhaps the blame is on me for so heavily believing the marketing onslaught, but we've heard all along that the AWD system is "the same" as that from the 911 C4 models, including the rear-drive bias. I'm not aware of any Audi with the same torque split as this, but I'm admittedly not at all up to speed on their latest products. Can you share a link or other information that support this parallel to Audi?

The fact that the Macan is rated to tow over 4,400 lbs tells me that the trans is probably strong enough to deal pretty well with some more boost.
I think this is a reasonable thought but I recall when the original Touareg V10 TDI came out way back when that its tow capacity was the same as that of the V8 model. The reason for that was the frame and braking system that was shared between the cars was more limiting than the engine and transmission in the mighty diesel. So tow rating isn't entirely about the drivetrain. What we don't know yet is just where the limits are for the clutches. Who's going to find out first? :)
 

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Discussion Starter #4
They lowered the tow rating after a lot of us already had our orders in. Pretty much means it won't tow much. Think the PDK is the weak link in the towing equation.

Right. They lowered it from well over 5,000lbs. What I've read is it was done because of the rear brakes. Regardless, 911s and Panameras can't tow 4000 lbs, so the fact that the Macan can tells me the PDK box is probably stronger than people are giving it credit for.
 

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Right. They lowered it from well over 5,000lbs. What I've read is it was done because of the rear brakes. Regardless, 911s and Panameras can't tow 4000 lbs, so the fact that the Macan can tells me the PDK box is probably stronger than people are giving it credit for.
991s/911s and Panamera's were never designed to tow anything. The Macan absent a braked trailer can't tow anything. Even with a lightweight aluminum braked trailer like I have, it can't tow that either. Still believe the PDK is the weak link. Cayennes can tow much more than Macans.
 

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Likely the same as the kind of capability as the S6 with its 4.0 litre twin turbo v8 420 hp, 7 speed dual clutch.

The S4 also runs a 7 speed dual clutch off the 3.0 litre supercharged v6 333 hp.

Highly under rated figures on both of these cars too when Dyno tested.

The rs7 Dyno shows 589 hp and it didn't get a dual clutch.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
991s/911s and Panamera's were never designed to tow anything. The Macan absent a braked trailer can't tow anything. Even with a lightweight aluminum braked trailer like I have, it can't tow that either. Still believe the PDK is the weak link. Cayennes can tow much more than Macans.
Lol. I think we are doing circles here. I'm saying that the fact that Porsche allows the Macan to tow 4k lbs means that the PDK box has plenty of strength to take on some more boost. How much boost we don't know yet...but the tow capacity by itself, considering the stress that 2 tons puts on gears and clutch packs, gives me hope that the trans is relatively stout for a PDK box.

911s and Panameras, because they were never designed to tow anything, wouldn't necessarily have a reason to have a beefed up PDK box, while I think the Macan might because it can tow.

How much a Cayenne can tow with a totally different transmission is irrelevant to what I'm saying. Beefed up autos are always stouter than dual-clutches, regardless of the manufacturer.
 

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Lol. I think we are doing circles here. I'm saying that the fact that Porsche allows the Macan to tow 4k lbs means that the PDK box has plenty of strength to take on some more boost. How much boost we don't know yet...but the tow capacity by itself, considering the stress that 2 tons puts on gears and clutch packs, gives me hope that the trans is relatively stout for a PDK box.

How much a Cayenne can tow with a totally different transmission is irrelevant to what I'm saying.
4K lbs is a wimpy tow rating - keep in mind that is with a braked trailer. Unbreaked is a rounding error.
 

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This is the first I've heard about any direct relation to Audi hardware for the PDK in the Macan. Perhaps the blame is on me for so heavily believing the marketing onslaught, but we've heard all along that the AWD system is "the same" as that from the 911 C4 models, including the rear-drive bias. I'm not aware of any Audi with the same torque split as this, but I'm admittedly not at all up to speed on their latest products. Can you share a link or other information that support this parallel to Audi?
Here's some concrete evidence that was quoted, an article in a local German newspaper from 2011:
VW Werk Kassel erhält Milliarden - und fertigt für Porsche | Wirtschaft

"Erstmals wird der Standort Baunatal auch für Porsche fertigen, sagt Stumpf. Das große DQ-Getriebe DL 501 ist für den Porsche Cajun gedacht – die Light-Version des Porsche Cayenne."

Something like this: "For the first time the [VW] Factory Baunatal will produce for Porsche, said Stumpf [member of the VW board]. The big DQ gearbox DL501 is meant for the Porsche Cajun, the light version of the Porsche Cayenne. "

Or a quote from a Porsche developer:

"Dann haben wir auch ein Doppelkupplungsgetriebe entwickelt; eine Ableitung des DL501-Audi-Getriebes, mit komplett neuer Software und einem ganz neuen Allradsystem, dem Porsche-Hang-On-Allradsystem....Die Änderungen von Porsche sehe ich als Chance und Risiko zugleich."

"We then also developed a dual-clutch gearbox; a derivative of the DL501 Audi gearbox, with completely new software and an entirely new all-wheel system, the Porsche-Hang-On-Allwheelsystem...I see the Porsche changes as an opportunity and a risk at the same time."

Apparently there are other arguments (e.g. the routing of the front-axle drive shaft) that speak for a closer relationship to the Audi than to e.g. the Panamera unit.
 

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@whoosh and @Cloudplay

Here's a article that states the exact opposite, in fact the author thought it might be a derivative, but was told specifically it was all Porsche.

2. The Seven-Speed PDK Is a Porsche Transmission

Our American-market Q5 uses an eight-speed, torque-converter automatic, but European Q5s are available with a seven-speed dual-clutch automatic. That fact made us suspicious that the Macan’s PDK transmission, with seven forward gears and the same two-clutch technology, was actually the Audi S tronic gearbox working under a pseudonym. It’s not. We’re told the Macan’s transmission is genuine Porsche hardware like the PDK used in the Panamera.
Seven Things You Need To Know About the 2015 Porsche Macan ?*News ?*Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog
 
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@whoosh and @Cloudplay

Here's a article that states the exact opposite, in fact the author thought it might be a derivative, but was told specifically it was all Porsche.



Seven Things You Need To Know About the 2015 Porsche Macan ?*News ?*Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog
This quote (translated by me, see my earlier post or the article below for the original German):
"We then also developed a dual-clutch gearbox; a derivative of the DL501 Audi gearbox, with completely new software and an entirely new all-wheel system, the Porsche-Hang-On-Allwheelsystem...I see the Porsche changes as an opportunity and a risk at the same time."

is from Porsche Head of Development Wolfgang Hatz, from Feb 11 2014. It is from a German car manufacturing trade publication, and the original is here
Porsche-Entwicklungsvorstand Wolfgang Hatz: "Einen Vierzylinder werden wir beim Macan sicherlich machen"

The C&D blog entry doesn't say it was "all Porsche". Porsche doesn't manufacture gearboxes. The C&D guy was told something that he translated into "genuine Porsche hardware", as I already quoted - that means whatever Porsche wants it to mean. It is a Porsche derivative of the Audi DL501, that's just a fact. Whether that makes it more or less Porsche than the ZF PDK in the Panamera I don't know. I also don't care much, as I think it is maybe the best gearbox I have ever experienced.
 

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They lowered the tow rating after a lot of us already had our orders in. Pretty much means it won't tow much. Think the PDK is the weak link in the towing equation.
During my off-road factory test drive at Leipzig, there were two hills: a 45 degree hill for the Cayenne and a 35 degree hill for the Macan. According to the Porsche instructor, the Macan PDK was the limiting factor for the 45 degree hill - the Cayenne automatic handles it better. The 35 degree hill was steep enough (completely blind going over the top - drove between two poles).
 

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Discussion Starter #15

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New home for previous discussion in a different thread...
I believe Porsche was one the first to launch Dual Clutch boxes on consumer vehicles during the 997 model generation. They were built by ZF but I don't know if they are ZF designed or Porsche designed. I would assume the latter.
 

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Ok, here we go again. What do I think are the facts?

* The Macan PDK is a derivative of the Audi DL501 s-tronic. Why do I think so? Because Wolfgang Hatz says so:
Porsche-Entwicklungsvorstand Wolfgang Hatz: "Einen Vierzylinder werden wir beim Macan sicherlich machen"

Why do I believe what he says? Because he is Hatz is a member of Porsche AG Board of Management in charge of Research and Development, and is additionally Head of Engines and Transmissions Development for the Volkswagen Group:
Wolfgang Hatz

I don't see how anyone would want to argue with that.

* So what about the DL501? It was supposedly developed by Audi (see dual-clutch wikipedia entry). Some parts are made by Borg-Warner (wet clutches, some valves). There are two sources that claim that it is manufactured in a Volkswagen factory:

"Alle Varianten (DQ200, DQ250, DQ500 und DL501) werden im Volkswagenwerk Kassel gefertigt." -> "All variants [of the 7 speed DSG] (DQ200, DQ250, DQ500 and DL501) are manufactured in the Volkswagen factory Kassel"
Fahrzeuggetriebe ? Wikipedia

"Erstmals wird der Standort Baunatal auch für Porsche fertigen, sagt Stumpf. Das große DQ-Getriebe DL 501 ist für den Porsche Cajun gedacht – die Light-Version des Porsche Cayenne. " (I translated that earlier in the thread)
VW Werk Kassel erhält Milliarden - und fertigt für Porsche | Wirtschaft

* Why do I discount the C&D statement that "We’re told the Macan’s transmission is genuine Porsche hardware like the PDK used in the Panamera"? Because it doesn't mean anything. Porsche doesn't manufacture the Panamera PDK (ZF does) or the Macan PDK (VW does). Both gearboxes were developed by Porsche in some form of collaboration with the supplier and are presumably not used in the exact some form by anyone else. So if Porsche wants to call them both "genuine Porsche", why not.


* While there were some claims that it would make more sense for Porsche to use the same ZF unit as in other models, one needs to recall that the Macan is based on the MLB VW group platform, and other models on this platform (A6, RS5, Q5 3.0 TDI) also use the DL501.

So, for me all the evidence points to the Macan gearbox being a Porsche-developed variant of the Audi DL501, manufactured in the Kassel VW factory, using key components from suppliers like Borg Warner. Borg Warner for example supplies parts for the ubiquitous ZF 8-speed, so who knows if there are also some ZF connections to the Macan gearbox (either parts or collaboration in development, or licensed technology), but it does not appear to be a ZF gearbox in the way the Panamera gearbox is.
 

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Instead of adding to my lengthy previous reply let me also quote another relevant fact. The whole discussion arose from speculation about the torque limit of the Macan PDK. Most places quote the Audi DL501 as originally having a 550Nm torque capacity, which coincides with the Macan turbo peak torque. For the European SQ5 (peak torque 650Nm), Audi switches to the ZF 8 speed automatic. So if one is after bulletproof reliability, it is not obvious how much room there is with the Macan PDK (580Nm should be ok, as that is the 3.0 TDI peak torque). There are also claims of reliable 700Nm tuned Audis with the DL501, but the standards for considering something sufficiently reliable might be different between tuners and a major manufacturer.
 
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