[K-A]

That wasn't true. X73 in the 981 was stiffer springs, lower, and no PASM. Suncoast sells kits today to add it to a Boxster or Cayman.

I should have clarified I meant on a 911. You can’t get a low, stiff setup without being “forced” into the active shocks.

My .1 has low H&R springs and PASM and I still wish there was one mode stiffer than PASM sport.

ROW Macan GTS’s apparently get lower, tighter steel springs as standard but I haven’t heard much about how they compare to the GTS AS.

 

[.101354]

Has anyone explored or discussed shock replacement?
This is with the non pasm Macan s of course.
I am on the fence about putting new springs on my Macan S and If I do decide affirmatively then would also like to replace the shocks ( 62000 miles). Anyone with experience in this matter?

 

[oqjnLu@>@W]

How about coil-overs?

There's at least one forum member who has installed these.

 

[.101354]

Coil overs are one option and they do have certain advantages. One of the big disadvantages on this platform ( and anyone correct me if I am mistaken) if the lack of access for adjusting the rebound etc . This adjustment is usually done from the top part of the shock and that is just not easily accessible ?
I would prefer a set of springs with a shock that can function well with them. The Oem shocks are really good and they may be the best... I simply don’t know. Therefore opening the discussion. Perhaps billsteins would be a slight upgrade performance wise?

 

[roule]

How often do steel springs break?

Not often, but I have actually broken a coil spring on a German car. Mechanical and/or electrical failures are practically guaranteed to happen at some point on every car.

--- warning: going off topic here, on the basic subject of reliability and humans' bizarre interpretation thereof.

People seldom think about complexity when they purchase, nor do they get to see the bang for the buck. Porsche doesn't offer manual window cranks, and they will never reveal failure rates on any of their products. Yet everyone here prefers the more complex Porsche product over less complicated competitors. Admittedly, almost all automobiles are overcomplicated, but still, Porsches stopped being simple 2 decades ago.

That being said, even complex products like Porsches can be made to be safe. It's not about the complexity, its about the design and testing to prove that when failures do happen, they happen in a benign way. Some products simply cut corners. Tesla autopilots have killed multiple people in the past year (7 major incidents since 2016). Nobody has asked for them to be banned from public roads. Uncertified complex systems are being tested on your streets every day.

Meanwhile the bleeding hearts are demanding that no one should have the right to voluntarily fly on a Boeing 737 Max. Mind you, every airliner is tested up the wazoo and it proven to have a chance of single catastrophic failure of less than 1 in a billion assuming mechanic and pilot competence. Now some actors are trying to convince the public that the most safe vehicles on the planet are all bad, designed by evil engineers to be cheap. It's ludicrous. Boeing intentionally introduced an automated feature so that its new airplane would feel more like the old smaller ones despite being much bigger, with more powerful engines. Precisely how much more reliable is the old design over the new design? Zero. All model 737 airplanes are an order of magnitude safer than any car if the pilot turns off the nanny computer and flies the plane with stick and rudder, which is what they have always been trained to do. Until now. Now kids think that flicking off the computer and flicking it back on is the right thing to do. That's what you do in a Tesla when the screen crashes, don't you know?

Tesla automobiles have been given big thumbs down on consumer reliability ratings - including Model S having suspension issues, not to mention serious issues with its electronic driver aids, body hardware, climate system, etc. https://www.designnews.com/electron...m/electronics-test/tesla-s-reliability-issues-are-growing-pains/146880852459721 If a suspension component failed while driving, should Tesla immediately be subject to a sales ban and recall all automobiles immediately without allowing owners to drive them? That didn't happen and the press didn't jump on their opportunity to make Tesla pay. Too enamored with the CEO's personal dynamism perhaps?

But in the airplane world, bans can be enacted by political decree. Two incidents occurred to 737s operated by airlines that have previously been cited for less than ideal training and maintenance methods. One happened due to bird strike, one had an incompetent maintenance crew replace a faulty sensor with another faulty sensor without adequate ground testing to clear the plane. Both incidents were compounded by less than optimal pilot reaction largely as a fault of inadequate situational training. The flurry of warning messages didn't help the pilots correct the situation. Nevertheless, despite being dragged through the mud by the press, Boeing struggles to use reliability and enhanced training to convince regulators to allow airlines to buy the airplane.

Fatal automobile accidents in 2017: 40,100 souls lost, almost all of them partly attributed to driver error.
Fatal 737 Max accidents (2 total): 346 souls lost, and everyone working in airplane design, certification, etc is blamed.

If Tesla and Porsche continue down the road to higher complexity and automation, then broken suspension springs will be the least of their worries. I would fly a 737 Max tomorrow with zero "software updates" before relying on Porsche or Tesla driver nannies with my hands off the wheel. That's the difference between reliability verified by design and hundreds of thousands of hours of testing, and the automobile world which really is pushed to meet feature lists and price targets. When it breaks, just pull over and hope like heck nobody else runs you over.

 

[grim]

Yet everyone here prefers the more complex Porsche product over less complicated competitors.

Not everyone but I get your point. Many people preferred the X73 suspension for the Caymans which was not PASM. I would prefer a roll up window over power windows any day. The more complicated, the more parts break.

Admittedly, almost all automobiles are overcomplicated, but still, Porsches stopped being simple 2 decades ago.

Yes and no. They used to have the X73, then didn't, then brought it back. You don't have to get PASM just like you don't need PASM or air suspension on a SUV. Life will go on. They took away the MT on the GT3, then brought it back. The GT4 is MT only. I would say the more consumer oriented products are complicated. The more purist products are more simple.

That being said, even complex products like Porsches can be made to be safe. It's not about the complexity, its about the design and testing to prove that when failures do happen, they happen in a benign way. Some products simply cut corners. Tesla autopilots have killed multiple people in the past year (7 major incidents since 2016). Nobody has asked for them to be banned from public roads. Uncertified complex systems are being tested on your streets every day.

Meanwhile the bleeding hearts are demanding that no one should have the right to voluntarily fly on a Boeing 737 Max. ...


Mind you, every airliner is tested up the wazoo and it proven to have a chance of single catastrophic failure of less than 1 in a billion assuming mechanic and pilot competence. Now some actors are trying to convince the public that the most safe vehicles on the planet are all bad, designed by evil engineers to be cheap. It's ludicrous. Boeing intentionally introduced an automated feature so that its new airplane would feel more like the old smaller ones despite being much bigger, with more powerful engines. Precisely how much more reliable is the old design over the new design? Zero. All model 737 airplanes are an order of magnitude safer than any car if the pilot turns off the nanny computer and flies the plane with stick and rudder, which is what they have always been trained to do. Until now. Now kids think that flicking off the computer and flicking it back on is the right thing to do. That's what you do in a Tesla when the screen crashes, don't you know?

Tesla automobiles have been given big thumbs down on consumer reliability ratings - including Model S having suspension issues, not to mention serious issues with its electronic driver aids, body hardware, climate system, etc. https://www.designnews.com/electron...m/electronics-test/tesla-s-reliability-issues-are-growing-pains/146880852459721 If a suspension component failed while driving, should Tesla immediately be subject to a sales ban and recall all automobiles immediately without allowing owners to drive them? That didn't happen and the press didn't jump on their opportunity to make Tesla pay. Too enamored with the CEO's personal dynamism perhaps?

But in the airplane world, bans can be enacted by political decree. Two incidents occurred to 737s operated by airlines that have previously been cited for less than ideal training and maintenance methods. One happened due to bird strike, one had an incompetent maintenance crew replace a faulty sensor with another faulty sensor without adequate ground testing to clear the plane. Both incidents were compounded by less than optimal pilot reaction largely as a fault of inadequate situational training. The flurry of warning messages didn't help the pilots correct the situation. Nevertheless, despite being dragged through the mud by the press, Boeing struggles to use reliability and enhanced training to convince regulators to allow airlines to buy the airplane.

Fatal automobile accidents in 2017: 40,100 souls lost, almost all of them partly attributed to driver error.
Fatal 737 Max accidents (2 total): 346 souls lost, and everyone working in airplane design, certification, etc is blamed.

If Tesla and Porsche continue down the road to higher complexity and automation, then broken suspension springs will be the least of their worries. I would fly a 737 Max tomorrow with zero "software updates" before relying on Porsche or Tesla driver nannies with my hands off the wheel. That's the difference between reliability verified by design and hundreds of thousands of hours of testing, and the automobile world which really is pushed to meet feature lists and price targets. When it breaks, just pull over and hope like heck nobody else runs you over.

OK. I think maybe you don't like the attention being given to the planes crashing vs the car accidents. I can guess the reason. Carriers. Carriers get big attention. Plane goes down, lots of lawsuits, lots of press attention - people are dying. Meanwhile, Tesla crashes and burns? The press buries it because "My climate" Can't have the public know about those fires. It doesn't fit the agenda of the MSM?

I agree with your assessment. Not relevant to the subject here but in a tangental way OK.

 

[.101354]

All very interesting and some good discussion points but if we could.....anyone ever replaced their shocks yet.... excluding coil Overs?

 

[.101354]

not much discussion concerning the shocks? That's interesting.
Personally I am on the fence concerning lowering coils and shock replacement versus a good set of coilovers. Coilovers presently are slightly preferred at the moment.

 

[Chalbecca]

Hey guys, so I'm ordering a 2022 Macan S with steel spring suspension because where I live, the climate is pretty much arch-nemesis to air suspension and since I plan on owning the car for at least 7 years, up to 9, I cannot go with AS and expect it to not have any problems.

I've been watching a lot of MY2022 Macan reviews (whatever is available to date), and almost all of them mention how stable, the amount of grip and how amazingly it corners for an SUV to a point where reviewers forget they're in a SUV rather than a sports car. All of the reviewed cars have Air Suspension.

So much question to you is, how does Steel Spring suspension perform/compare to AS? (ignoring the comfort benefits and focusing strictly on performance). Can you say it's the same in terms of grip, stability, etc...?

I really wish I could option AS, but I am really worried about potential of issues when exposed to high amounts of moisture and extreme temperature swings in winter time that I get where I live, oh and an unimaginable amounts of road salt as well. I'm From Ontario, Canada.

Thanks.

 

[oqjnLu@>@W]

Look to your US neighbors in the northern parts of that country - temperature extremes that vary little from Canada as well
as high salt usage on the roads in the winter months.

There are Macan owners and forum members from both VT and CO - and likely other northern US states.

I have driven Cayennes with steel springs and my Macan is AS equipped. The Cayennes remind me of pickup trucks the way
they ride, with the coil springs. The AS design definitely offers a better ride, and it's adjustable from plush to sporty.

There are other forum members with high mileage Macans. I do not recall (m)any posts about AS issues and I've been reading
forum posts for several years.


Good luck!

 

[Opt1k]

Ride on AS with 20" is similar to the ride on 18" with steel springs. I would get AS.

 

[wwahl]

I'm a Washingtonian who skis a lot. My '18 S has never faltered with the AS. I'm in a lot of snow and salt. The AS combined with the PSAM is really unbeatable.

 

[SoCalS5]

.....how does Steel Spring suspension perform/compare to AS?....

The benefit of the Air Suspension is the relative ease of lowering the car's ride height & center of gravity. And because the Air Suspension uses air cylinders, the ride becomes more firm when the car is lowered.

You can achieve largely similar results by installing lowering springs on a steel suspension Macan. The steel suspension will likely give you better feel and feedback than the Air Suspension.

There are numerous threads discussing the installation of H&R, Eibach, and TechArt lowering springs.

 

[Chalbecca]

The benefit of the Air Suspension is the relative ease of lowering the car's ride height & center of gravity. And because the Air Suspension uses air cylinders, the ride becomes more firm when the car is lowered.

You can achieve largely similar results by installing lowering springs on a steel suspension Macan. The steel suspension will likely give you better feel and feedback than the Air Suspension.

There are numerous threads discussing the installation of H&R, Eibach, and TechArt lowering springs.

So basically if I'm not interested in lowering the vehicle or it's centre of gravity steel springs are just as good?

 

[wwahl]

So basically if I'm not interested in lowering the vehicle or it's centre of gravity steel springs are just as good?

If they were so hot Porsche wouldn't be having such a success with their AS. What SoCalS5 is advocating should have been a Porsche Official Option.

 

[SoCalS5]

So basically if I'm not interested in lowering the vehicle or it's centre of gravity steel springs are just as good?

The suspension geometry is very similar, whether you have steel or Air Suspension.

According to the alignment specs, the Air Suspension has slightly more negative camber front and rear, compared to the steel suspension.....so technically, that gives AS a very small advantage. And in low mode, an AS car will sit 10mm lower, which gives it another slight advantage in terms of lower center of gravity and even more negative camber.

But overall, the handling differences between AS and steel are small enough to be ignored for the majority of street driving. The steel suspension is perfectly fine, if you prefer to keep it simple.

 

[wwahl]

The suspension geometry is very similar, whether you have steel or Air Suspension.

According to the alignment specs, the Air Suspension has slightly more negative camber front and rear, compared to the steel suspension.....so technically, that gives AS a very small advantage. And in low mode, an AS car will sit 10mm lower, which gives it another slight advantage in terms of lower center of gravity and even more negative camber.

But overall, the handling differences between AS and steel are small enough to be ignored for the majority of street driving. The steel suspension is perfectly fine, if you prefer to keep it simple.

Where is this factually documented? Have you run tests of any sort? Why am I suspect. This appears to be a personal opinion.

 

[oqjnLu@>@W]

...you need to download the Service Manual:

NOTE: They also start - S vs. Turbo - from different ride height values

 

[SoCalS5]

Where is this factually documented?....

Good question.

As the post above correctly indicates, the specs I referenced were from the Service Manual. The Service Manual and the Parts Manual are my typical go-to resources.

 

[jdm996cab]

PASM vs AS

I believe @Macanuck or another member was alluding to this same point. For the track and taking the car to the limit just PASM is preferable. But in daily driving on the street people are not pushing the Macan this hard so the AS/PASM for ride comfort, lowering, etc., is the best option.


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App

Hello,
I am about to purchase a 2021 Macan S; it is equipped with Adaptive Air Suspension incl. PASM and I'm not sure about this option? Any feedback? I am coming out of a 2017 Macan S that did not have it.