Very interesting insights @macan1 - thanks!

 

PASM vs AS

I believe @Macanuck or another member was alluding to this same point. For the track and taking the car to the limit just PASM is preferable. But in daily driving on the street people are not pushing the Macan this hard so the AS/PASM for ride comfort, lowering, etc., is the best option.


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PASM vs AS

I believe @Macanuck or another member was alluding to this same point. For the track and taking the car to the limit just PASM is preferable. But in daily driving on the street people are not pushing the Macan this hard so the AS/PASM for ride comfort, lowering, etc., is the best option.


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Hello,
I am about to purchase a 2021 Macan S; it is equipped with Adaptive Air Suspension incl. PASM and I'm not sure about this option? Any feedback? I am coming out of a 2017 Macan S that did not have it.

 

I also appreciate this feedback! thank you.

 

PASM vs AS

The way I read that is that the limits feel quicker and more noticeable with steel and PASM. Which is consistent with my experiences. As a road car that won't ever see its limits, I prefer how AS makes the limits feel more "infinite" (and it does by nature raise said limits as well; lower cog, stiffer spring rate and active ability to control load at each corner). When judging weight figures on tested cars on this forum a while back, they concluded that AS adds about 30 lbs. If true, not too bad, and very low so contributes to a lower cog. The weight of a Pano along with some loss of rigidity, at the top of the car, is much more dominant in this aspect.

When I asked the Porsche drivers at PWRS why AS was on all test cars, all 3 said that while it's not a "must", they said it essential to give the Macan its ultimate physics defying sharpness. I have a feeling a lot of this will be subject to different opinions (just as by regular consumers).

Nothing can fool personal feel, though. When I recently drove a PASM steel Macan, the extra body lean, higher cog and lack of relative sharpness when engaging in real world quick maneuvers was pretty apparent to me. More pitch, roll and dive. And the lower and tighter ride of AS really made turn in feel more direct and crisp. Whilst improving ride comfort sophistication at the same time.

Maybe if I tracked the car to need to feel the limits sooner before they come, I'd prefer a lowered steel PASM. But being that I want to car to feel as "limitless" as possible, I find what they seem to allude to as to why I feel AS feels so much sportier and more dynamic to me in real world driving conditions.

 

When judging weight figures on tested cars on this forum a while back, they concluded that AS adds about 30 lbs. .

Dam depending on the time of the year my fat butt can add 30lbs to the weight of the car....I'm wondering how that will effect performance

 

I agree with @K-A. Having spent some time in the wheel wells of both my Macan and my wife's Q5 during my winter-summer changeover, I can report that subjectively, the AS unit is relatively light. It is all aluminium and is mostly hollow.



The Q5 steel springs are big and heavy. So I doubt they are that different in weight. It is the compressor and reservoirs that add the majority of the extra weight I suspect.

PASM shocks hardly add anything over normal shocks. They have just a few extra bits of valving compared to normal ones. They have the same diameter and mounting points.

AS certainly adds weight but I suspect 30 lbs is a reasonable quess. PASM cant add more than a pound or two.

 

A little while ago I mentioned I was going out to Leipzig (which is where the Macan is made) to do a 2 day Porsche sport driving course and I would ask the instructors about their preferences....so for fear of opening up the endless debate about AS vs PASM, here goes....

The consensus seemed to be for just PASM and not AS.

Your fear is well founded...

I've also attended a 2 day Porsche-Sport-Driving-School, but here in the USA. Instructors there also panned both AS and SC as being gimmicky and unneeded. The several 'cool' laps in a Macan, loaded with everything, (the way Porsche likes to sell them) including AS, at the Porsche World Road Show (PWRS) was inconclusive because it was so quick, maybe a minute or two at most. The two instructors both said they were equipped that way "because that's what Porsche (PCNA) gives us".

I listened closely, it matched my evaluations, and I believed them. 0 Be happy with what you have!

 

I personally like my PASM. The suspension felt tighter and in control in Sport especially on the twisties and more challenging back roads.

 

I also paid a visit to the factory last October, and was told the exact same thing by Porsche engineers regarding PASM only setup being preferable to AS setup with regards to sportiness of the vehicle. i.e. the PASM setup is the more track oriented option and the AS option is the comfort/off road option. The AS system just removes too much feel/connectedness from the vehicle. Some people like that and some people don't. However, when I previously mentioned this I was told that I didn't have proof so it didn't count. Waah!

 

This is like the most silly argument. Who the heck is taking a Macan out to a track. For heaven's sakes buy a SPORTS CAR, not an SUV.

Yeah, the immediate feedback of a spring system vs air suspension is probably better on the track.... surprise surpise, but SPRINGS on the Macan are so high, and you don't get to drop the car like AS on low mode (which makes a very REAL difference in maneauvering this SUV).

If you are some strange individual that bought a Macan to Track it ? Why o why??? Fine, get your steel springs, but please buy lowering links, please upgrade to ceramic brakes, add a roll cage, and rip out the seats while you're at it.

Such a silly silly topic.

 

Why not ?

Taking your DD to a track to learn how it behaves is a good thing to do.
I wish more people would do that to get the urge to go fast out of their systems, as well as getting a reality check on their drivers skills.

Besides, not everyone has the space/money/dedication to be able to have a dedicated track car. The Macan is a pretty competent tool to take to a track if you run in Groups A/B and just want to have a bit of fun on occasion.

As long as you stay within the limits of the car and yourself, and don't think that you can compete with the GTRs, 458s and Z06s in the higher groups it's all good.

 

I only tested steel --- but ordered AS...why?

- I drive aggressively ... I love off-ramps; I raced sports cars and open wheel cars for many years.

- However, I do not drive at 10/10ths of the limit on the road --- not worth it.....maybe 8.5/10ths.

- I needed it lower (for purely aesthetic reasons) --- so figured AS > lowering springs due to warranty, other good stuff (comfort, other adjustments)

To me -- the more 'plush' ride is just a nice to have ... but that's my take. I would probably agree with the instructors on track -- but other than maybe a few laps at a club track day for fun -- no plans to take the Macan hot lapping...and even for those few laps, it wouldn't be 10/10ths in an SUV with no extra safety equipment, better brakes, roll cage, etc.

(my 7.5 cents)

 

Well, for most of us it doesn't really matter. Good to know what the instructors think though.

However, we are not professional racers and we don't use nearly the full potential/capability of the Macan anywhere. If you do, get a 911/Boxster/Cayman.

So enjoy what you have and Peace!

 

I thought I remember reading on this forum that there was some SA conspiracy to get buyers to NOT order AS. Maybe the Porsche driving instructors and other factory employees are part of this conspiracy?

 

It's not a conspiracy it's logical for the dealers to sway people from the performance options and instead make sure they option infotainment and Bose so the car appeals to the mass market if you walk away from your order. A Macan with Info/Bose and base suspension will likely move faster off the lot than a Macan with PASM/AS and no navigation. Multiple SAs at different dealers told me I didn't need PASM/AS but kept questioning my lack of navigation.

 

I just returned from Leipzig and I have to say that my instructor gave me a much different impression than your experience. He was an excellent driver, was the European Carting Champion at 17, and was #3 in Formula Fords. While we were on the track I asked him if the Macan we were driving has AS, he said he wasn't sure (although he could have just looked down, we were going about a 100 mph and the conversation quickly moved on to what was going on with the car on the track). He said PASM was easily to identify. After a lap or 2 he said he didn't think that it was equipped with AS. It was his opinion that AS came into play more in day-to-day driving and was not a significant factor on the track. He also said that if he were buying the car with his own money, he would specify AS. It is one of the features that allows the Macan at one moment drive like a luxury car, and the next moment drive like a sports car. I have it and I am glad I do.

 

How could he not know if the macan had AS? Even an amateur like myself can just look at the buttons on the center console and figure it out.

I just returned from Leipzig and I have to say that my instructor gave me a much different impression than your experience. He was an excellent driver, was the European Carting Champion at 17, and was #3 in Formula Fords. While we were on the track I asked him if the Macan we were driving has AS, he said he wasn't sure. He said PASM was easily to identify. After a lap or 2 he said he didn't think that it was equipped with AS. It was his opinion that AS came into play more in day-to-day driving and was not a significant factor on the track. He also said that if he were buying the car with his own money, he would specify AS. It is one of the features that allows the Macan at one moment drive like a luxury car, and the next moment drive like a sports car. I have it and I am glad I do.

 

Is that the car with a down arrow?

 

I like fuzzy logic too!

 

PASM vs AS

Uh oh, I sense anti-AS club coming in with personal attacks and inflammatory comments again?

Maybe we can not get into a pissing match this time. Let's just debate the SUSPENSIONS, please.

Anyway, to me, "fuzzy logic" could be thinking that a looser and higher spring rate, higher center of gravity, and sans an ability to control spring distribution from this heavy machine is somehow better for the track, (not to mention increased negative camber from AS which is very beneficial on a track) because the limits feel more natural, because one guy says it. Then another says the opposite, etc. it's all subjective.

Logic is Porsche, the most respected sports car company, using AS exclusively on their track driven Macan's (to raving reviews) or the *fundamental geometrical enhancements* it brings. Or how ONLY an AS model has achieved a .92 lateral g, etc.

Steel showcasing limits easier is exactly why I prefer AS and part of why you pay for it.

I also prefer PDCC on a 911. It's amazing on a track.

 

PASM vs AS

No delusion.

"My hearsay is better than your hearsay".

Fundamentally and *geometrically*, AS is better. This "because limits are more transparent with steel" is a knock to it, imo. There is nothing superior about higher and fixed, semi soft springs on a fundamental level, EXCEPT for in natural feel, which is subjective. And yes, that's my subjective opinion on the virtues of objective enhancements. AS makes the car feel more "limitless" because it's that good, imo.

I'll take what Porsche race drivers told me, "so there" lol.

Dealers by and large don't want performance options, period. They want an SUV demographic to consider this car, they need accessible options and a general price range, in case you walk. What an SA says about AS means little to nothing and is always in the dealers best interest. Thinking otherwise is generally giving into classic dealer tactics.

AS is on literally all of their company equipped track cars. For a reason. They also state it as being the best handling suspension on a Macan, and they back up the words with how they send the cars to track tests. Porsche knows best, I think.

 

Did I say Peace? (even though I am not a mod)

 

PASM vs AS




Unfortunately it's hard to debate the same group of guys who hurl insults to counter my reasonings for AS. "delusional", "fuzzy logic" etc. I haven't resorted to that once. Because AS is easy to objectively back up.

Edit. From here on I'll just debate the core suspensions and flag inflammatory posts by Motor and Nylon. Not gonna get tit for tat. But I'll debate the topic, just not the personality inflammatory aspects.

 

The op's statement was:

"The consensus seemed to be for just PASM and not AS. According to the instructors, the AS Macans are too snappy. The PASM car telegraphs the limit to the driver and let's you know when you are approaching it whereas the AS cars just tend to let go."

K-A's reply to this statement was:

'What that instructor basically says is that you can feel the limits easier with PASM steel. That is NOT a compliment unless you're trying to get to the cars limits on a track. "

1. This is obviously a straw-man response.
2. The fuzzy logic comment applies to the statement because since when do you go to a track with specific objective not to test the limits of your vehicle. i.e. obtain the fastest time around the course.
3. When was it a good thing for one not be able to feel the limits of the vehicle. i.e. to be deceived into losing control because you could not sense if the vehicle was about to break loose or not.

I think the AS system is great for comfort and off road applications. But if one does intend to track their Macan (most won't), AS is an option that should be left off despite what the marketing might have you believe. It's better to go with a steel setup and PTV.

Hearsay be damned! And no one is throwing any insults here. "Fuzzy logic" is not an insult.

 

PASM vs AS

The op's statement was:



"The consensus seemed to be for just PASM and not AS. According to the instructors, the AS Macans are too snappy. The PASM car telegraphs the limit to the driver and let's you know when you are approaching it whereas the AS cars just tend to let go."



K-A's reply to this statement was:



'What that instructor basically says is that you can feel the limits easier with PASM steel. That is NOT a compliment unless you're trying to get to the cars limits on a track. "



1. This is obviously a straw-man response.

2. The fuzzy logic comment applies to the statement because since when do you go to a track with specific objective not to test the limits of your vehicle. i.e. obtain the fastest time around the course.

3. When was it a good thing for one not be able to feel the limits of the vehicle. i.e. to be deceived into losing control because you could not sense if the vehicle was about to break loose or not.



I think the AS system is great for comfort and off road applications. But if one does intend to track their Macan (most won't), AS is an option that should be left off despite what the marketing might have you believe. It's better to go with a steel setup and PTV.



Hearsay be damned!

Well it's still rooted in ad hominem, but that's better.

Fair enough. But to me, a car like this is better when its limits are felt much raised. And nobody had seemed to "lose it" with a Macan yet, AS or otherwise.

In a 911, it's different. But with a bigger, tall and heavy car, active enhancements are pivotal to lake the car feel smaller and like a "sports car". Which is why all high range luxury/performance 4 doors use AS or some form of active springs.

The Macan bringing AS is imo a testament and essential as to how serious it is to play in the "mass defying" 4 door crowd. I think it gets so many polarizing comments here because the Macan plays in a lower price range.

Again, my issue with PASM steel was that I could feel too much more pitch and roll. And it felt noticeably higher. So in those respects, yes, the limits feel much more tangible, but in the real world, that's the last thing I want, personally. AS makes the limits feel unattainable which I prefer.

With your history to me, "fuzzy logic" is undermining and an insult. And you know it's intended to start a flame war because I'd have to defend it. Why don't we not make disguised "jokes" about members and keep
expressing why we prefer the different suspensions.

 

<yawn>:|

 

So I can't discuss the merits of the argument or call out the logic on a topic because of 'history' and for fear of someone being offended. Give me a break!

 

Break or Brake ?

?



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You guys are hilarious ! Thank you for the afternoon chuckle . PASM , AS PTV , MTV , DDT all good ! Ok , not DDT ?


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You guys are hilarious ! Thank you for the afternoon chuckle . PASM , AS PTV , MTV , DDT all good ! Ok , not DDT

Agree, hilarious, but also ridiculous. First let me say that I have AS and I probably would order it again. What I like about it most is that I can set the PASM on Sport+ and when I go through turns the car has absolutely no noticeable body lean, but even at Sport+ it's incredibly comfortable -- almost like grandpa's Lincoln (well -- maybe not quite that). Now I'm talking about "real world driving", not the 0.5% of the time that someone might be on a track or off-road.

On the other hand, if you look at the "head-to-head" comparison drive of the Macan Turbo versus the Merc GLA 45 AMG that is linked in another thread, the guy who did that test drive didn't like having no lean. He liked the GLA better specifically because it had some body lean when he went through corners at high speed.

So why do I mention this stuff. It's because each of us like a different feeling in our drives. Sure, you can cite this test statistic, or that test statistic, or some test driver's opinion or a race driver's opinion, or whatever. But it all comes down to what the person who buys the vehicle likes. And as I said in other posts, "different strokes for different folks" (and those of you who have been around since the early '70's will remember that phrase).

My advice is that each of us should drive the car in various configurations and just get what we like. If what you like is different than what I like, that's just fine.

 

Oh please, cry me a river.

 

PASM vs AS

Let's also note that it wasn't said that PASM steel is "better handling" for a track. It's not. AS' lower, stiffer, negative camber, active load balancing, are fundamental handling increasers. Porsche identifies this explicitly (and naturally uses AS almost exclusively for track events because of it).

It's said, subjectively, that you can feel the limits more naturally with steel. Again, that can be a huge negative to what many of us seek from an active suspension, to make a heavy road car feel more like a "sports car". The lack of limit sensing of AS is essentially what people pay for. It gives an experience of limit raising, imo. That feeling of no lean and rails like handling with ultimate comfort is what makes the suspension, imo.

 

Let's also note that it wasn't said that PASM steel is "better handling" for a track. It's not. AS' lower, stiffer, negative camber, active load balancing, are fundamental handling increasers. Porsche identifies this explicitly (and naturally uses AS almost exclusively for track events because of it).

It's said, subjectively, that you can feel the limits more naturally with steel. Again, that can be a huge negative to what many of us seek from an active suspension, to make a heavy road car feel more like a "sports car". The lack of limit sensing of AS is essentially what people pay for. It gives an experience of limit raising, imo. That feeling of no lean and rails like handling with ultimate comfort is what makes the suspension, imo.

Well said. I agree.

 

PASM vs AS

Again, this is a discussion about AS vs PASM, and please stop trying to take it O/T as to instigate a pile on from the same clique to a specific member.

What I do agree on with most is that regardless of track benefits, AS is most benefited on the road (and in keeping with what @thkemp's own instructor said). Again, that's where the comparative "limitless" feel makes it so excellent especially on a car like this, day to day, on real world roads, imo.