[grim]

This clip is NOT cross country, its only 800 miles. x-country is 3,000 miles. The biggest shocker is not how much longer it took for charging, but to me, the cost of electrons was the same as cost of gas. But I would never tolerate the extra time to travel. Travel time is wasted time.

 

[Footie]

In addition to many of the great points shared by you all, one of the fundamental challenges on EV is the use of battery unit! There isn't a good way to contain battery flaming issue, toxic fume, and waste, yet!

Auto makers are trying to gain market interesting by pumping up higher HP, quicker acceleration on EV, and both can be excelled in ICE with great driving dynamic if not better.

To many car enthusiasts, the mechanical and sophisticated ICE internal movement is what made ICE unique, similar to one would prefer mechanical timepiece vs digital timepiece counter part!

Would bet if Porsche continues to make new Macan or 718 in ICE using existing or new body, or even S/T edition for purist, the sales number would keep EV edition off the table.

I would have classed myself as a petrol head owning most of the performance versions of Audi, BMW and Porsche but the whole EV thing pricked my interested plus the financial benefits through my business that I took a punt as I thought if I didn’t like it I ship it within the year. Almost two years in and the brother bought his Taycan based on my car and I’ve had my deposit down for the Macan EV replacement since Oct 22.

I don’t see a problem with anyone wanting to stick with an ICE equivalent but by the same token I don’t think anyone should have a problem wanting to go the EV route. Genuinely I have yet to meet anyone who has spent a reasonable amount of time with an EV not amazing by them.

@Mii Whilst I agree Porsche should offer the Boxster/Cayman as an ICE the rumor is that Porsche has decided quite a while ago to switch them to electric, is this just chat and in reality they will be staying with engines we will probably know this year for sure.

One thing I have been wondering is as companies switch their models over completely to EV where will this leave the US market, especially as you say your infrastructure isn’t anywhere near up to the job?

 

[grim]

One thing I have been wondering is as companies switch their models over completely to EV where will this leave the US market, especially as you say your infrastructure isn’t anywhere near up to the job?

Consumers wont buy them. The facts are clear. Graphic attributed to Visual Capitalist, https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualized-ev-market-share-in-the-u-s/ I said EV penetration was 1%, this graphic includes plug in hybrids. A picture is worth a thousand words. CA only has 3.5% EV, you would think from the hype its more but that is false.

 

[Footie]

This clip is NOT cross country, its only 800 miles. x-country is 3,000 miles. The biggest shocker is not how much longer it took for charging, but to me, the cost of electrons was the same as cost of gas. But I would never tolerate the extra time to travel. Travel time is wasted time.

What is the average cost per KW in the US, over here in the UK it’s approximately 65-70p/KW which is roughly 3-4 times the price of charging at home which is why most people only get enough to get them back home to charge there.

 

[Mii]

@Mii Whilst I agree Porsche should offer the Boxster/Cayman as an ICE the rumor is that Porsche has decided quite a while ago to switch them to electric, is this just chat and in reality they will be staying with engines we will probably know this year for sure.

According to Automotive News Europe, original projected retirement timeline for Macan ICE was 2026, but that reportedly not happening anymore.

Instead, the new plan is to see how the EV will perform in terms of sales, especially since customer feedback revealed there just aren't enough chargers in the US.

Porsche Macan With Gas Engines Might Stick Around Longer Than Planned

Porsche informed its dealers the Macan ICE could continue to be sold in the United States longer than initially planned, so beyond 2025 or 2026.

www.motor1.com

If that's any indication, Porsche may unleash new Macan ICE edition with similar interior / body shell as Macan EV (or continue to make life cycle revisions of current Macan ICE, upping HP, driving dynamics, interior updates), and let the consumers decide the preference.

 

[Footie]

According to Automotive News Europe, original projected retirement timeline for Macan ICE was 2026, but that reportedly not happening anymore.

Porsche Macan With Gas Engines Might Stick Around Longer Than Planned

Porsche informed its dealers the Macan ICE could continue to be sold in the United States longer than initially planned, so beyond 2025 or 2026.

www.motor1.com

If that's any indication, Porsche may unleash new Macan ICE edition with similar interior / body shell as Macan EV (or continue to make life cycle revisions of current Macan ICE, upping HP, driving dynamics, interior updates), and let the consumers decide the preference.

I think everyone should have the option to pick whether they want ICE or EV, the EV is on a unique platform to that of the regular ICE version and as such it’s a little bit bigger so I think each will have completely different dynamics.

EVs in general have a lower centre of gravity and this is especially true for SUV versions, so it will be interesting to see how different these two versions will feel and behave.

 

[grim]

What is the average cost per KW in the US, over here in the UK it’s approximately 65-70p/KW which is roughly 3-4 times the price of charging at home which is why most people only get enough to get them back home to charge there.

It depends, by state, on how electricity is generated

Cost of Electricity by State, Electric Rates by State

The cost of electricity by state in 2025 vs 2024 can be shown here at Quick Electricity. The US EIA is constantly gathering the latest data on electric rates by state.

quickelectricity.com

65 pence ~85 cents. Thats crazy high. Avg about 16 cents, I see about 12 cents, That equals ~ 9 or 10 pence

But if you drive from Chicago to NYC you aint charging at home and thats not a long trip. Drive NYC to LA, truckers go long haul across the country all the time.

 

[Footie]

It depends, by state, on how electricity is generated

Cost of Electricity by State, Electric Rates by State

The cost of electricity by state in 2025 vs 2024 can be shown here at Quick Electricity. The US EIA is constantly gathering the latest data on electric rates by state.

quickelectricity.com

65 pence ~85 cents. Thats crazy high. Avg about 16 cents, I see about 12 cents, That equals ~ 9 or 10 pence

😱 You are only paying 9-10p/KW at a charging station, that is nuts. Surely that’s way cheaper than an equivalent sized ICE with similar performance, even with your much cheaper fuel prices. The only negative I can see will be charging times and possible waiting times to get a charging unit if busy.

Still can’t get my head around those prices. 🤪

But if you drive from Chicago to NYC you aint charging at home and thats not a long trip. Drive NYC to LA, truckers go long haul across the country all the time.

At the moment EVs aren’t really an alternative to ICE for long trips and these long trips is very much an American thing.

We use to holiday in Florida and regular met up with a family from New York who always drove down rather than hop on a plane, couldn’t never understand this logic because the cost saving wasn’t that huge and the length of time on the road was nuts but hey their choice.

 

[grim]

😱 You are only paying 9-10p/KW at a charging station, that is nuts

No, thats residential elec cost, dont know at charging station, its complicated

https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-a-tesla/

I think the worst for at home is the sunk cost for

1. hardware
2. electrician
3. permits
4. bigger amperage to house

When do you break even to recover the sunk cost? The less you drive, the longer it takes.

 

[Footie]

No, thats residential elec cost, dont know at charging station, its complicated

https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-a-tesla/

I think the worst for at home is the sunk cost for

1. hardware
2. electrician
3. permits
4. bigger amperage to house

When do you break even to recover the sunk cost? The less you drive, the longer it takes.

I see, so similar sort of prices to what we usually pay at home though the Ukraine war has effected the electric prices a bit at the moment so are paying a bit more at the moment. Still 3-4 times cheaper than what I would be paying for an equivalent performance ICE car.

I wonder is our higher voltage in Europe 240v compared to your 110v part of the issue, for me I didn’t have an issue adding the charger to our home, even the brother didn’t have an issue and his house was built 60 years ago. Charger including fitted even without the government supplement would be less than £650-750 and my complete electric bill to date for 12500 miles is 5892KW and roughly £765. With my previous M5 Comp this would have cost me about £2680. Pretty decent saving for so little miles.

 

[Robert M]

I see, so similar sort of prices to what we usually pay at home though the Ukraine war has effected the electric prices a bit at the moment so are paying a bit more at the moment. Still 3-4 times cheaper than what I would be paying for an equivalent performance ICE car.

I wonder is our higher voltage in Europe 240v compared to your 110v part of the issue, for me I didn’t have an issue adding the charger to our home, even the brother didn’t have an issue and his house was built 60 years ago. Charger including fitted even without the government supplement would be less than £650-750 and my complete electric bill to date for 12500 miles is 5892KW and roughly £765. With my previous M5 Comp this would have cost me about £2680. Pretty decent saving for so little miles.

Our homes are 110V. A 110V charger can be used but your charging times would be astronomically long. So in order for a 240V system to be installed would require an electrician. Slots have to be open in the panel, conduit and cabling have to be run through the attic or outside the house depending on how long of a run it is, wires have to be fished through the walls, sheetrock needs to be cut, an outlet needs to be added, and the charger needs to be mounted. You're not getting that done for a few dollars US or for a few GBP or whatever other currency is being used. Plus we get charged for the permit and have to wait while the inspector gets around to your house to do the final inspection. And let's hope you don't need a panel upgrade. If you do you need to tack on another $3,500 or more.

 

[Footie]

Our homes are 110V. A 110V charger can be used but your charging times would be astronomically long. So in order for a 240V system to be installed would require an electrician. Slots have to be open in the panel, conduit and cabling have to be run through the attic or outside the house depending on how long of a run it is, wires have to be fished through the walls, sheetrock needs to be cut, an outlet needs to be added, and the charger needs to be mounted. You're not getting that done for a few dollars US or for a few GBP or whatever other currency is being used. Plus we get charged for the permit and have to wait while the inspector gets around to your house to do the final inspection. And let's hope you don't need a panel upgrade. If you do you need to tack on another $3,500 or more.

Yep it appears that the US is much more problematic to fit a charger than here. In the case on mine the electrician was here a total of 50 minutes.

You do get the impression that whilst America as a country were at the forefront of the EV revolution it will be else where in the world that takes up that baton and runs with it.

 

[///Bruce]

Still won’t park an EV in my garage….

 

[grim]

Yep it appears that the US is much more problematic to fit a charger than here. In the case on mine the electrician was here a total of 50 minutes.

You do get the impression that whilst America as a country were at the forefront of the EV revolution it will be else where in the world that takes up that baton and runs with it.

@Robert M has done a great job explaining some of the challenges but it can be even worse.

US houses were never meant to carry such electrical loads. IAMN an electrician but my understanding is that houses were built with 30, 60, 100, 150, or 200 AMP services. 30 would be pre WWII. Some new McMansions 400 AMP. But many, many houses have 60. OTOH, England or the London area was pretty much gutted with the Blitz so most of your new houses around London are probably built in the mid 50s or later?

When I was young, we had no dishwasher. No one ever conceived of a built-in device that washes the dishes. Clothes came out of the washer and onto a clothes line. clothes Pins were a real thing. Wet clothes were dried outside. Modern dryers are 30 AMP 240V ALONE. You seeing the point? Microwaves? LOL. I replaced a stove fan with an over the stove microwave that pulls 1600W. 15 amp circuits are 1800W. I had to get someone in to put a dedicated 20 AMP circuit JUST for the microwave.

IOW, houses were NEVER designed for future electric loads. Who knew someone would invent a microwave? Or powerful stereo equipment? Or all the computing devices? Or people having a TV in every room?

The second issue is how the houses are heated and A/C. Back in the day no one had AC. Now it's everywhere. Houses can be heated with: gas (and gas stoves), electric, oil furnaces. I remember a COAL furnace, yes a coal truck dumped coal and you had to shovel it. Electric is nothing but huge toasters talking big energy. The biggest energy pulls, in order, are when its all electric:

1. Heat (and or A/C)
2. Hot water heater
3. Dryers

So if the house has gas, then you can get away with a much smaller electric service because gas is doing the heating for the house and water and clothes.

So now you want to put in 64 amps, 50 amp draw 240V. Many houses certainly can't handle it if they are all electric. So now the big money comes. Increase the service to the house and a new panel.

Then as Robert M said, you better hope the panel is close to where the charger is going. I know mine would be on the entire opposite side of the house and the lines to be pulled would be long.

IOW, its not anywhere as simple as it sounds.

What you see in that initial 1% of vehicles are the early adopters with low hanging fruit. The easy stuff. It in no way represent the bulk of the US issues with electric charging at home. And that ignore the electrical pull from the grid if everyone plugged in.

So for example, its night time in the winter and 12F here. Thats -11C, Heat pumps don't work good below 20F. So the giant toaster goes on. That can pull 50 amps. Taking a shower? Could be 30 amps for the hot water heater. Dryer on? 30 more amps. Then there is the background load, the bare money to survive. That could be the refrigerator and every device in the house that is always on and you would be amazed how much that adds up. Just look at all the little LED lights on in every room, all a parasitic draw. Adding another 50 AMPs to charge ONE car? I think it will overload many houses that were never intended to have such a load. But the EV advocates NEVER talk about that. 🙈🙉🙊

These are sunk costs and the time to the breakeven point has to be calculated. If you get rid of the house, or car, prior to breakeven, who want to throw money away?

 

[Footie]

@Robert M has done a great job explaining some of the challenges but it can be even worse.

US houses were never meant to carry such electrical loads. IAMN an electrician but my understanding is that houses were built with 30, 60, 100, 150, or 200 AMP services. 30 would be pre WWII. Some new McMansions 400 AMP. But many, many houses have 60. OTOH, England or the London area was pretty much gutted with the Blitz so most of your new houses around London are probably built in the mid 50s or later?

When I was young, we had no dishwasher. No one ever conceived of a built-in device that washes the dishes. Clothes came out of the washer and onto a clothes line. clothes Pins were a real thing. Wet clothes were dried outside. Modern dryers are 30 AMP 240V ALONE. You seeing the point? Microwaves? LOL. I replaced a stove fan with an over the stove microwave that pulls 1600W. 15 amp circuits are 1800W. I had to get someone in to put a dedicated 20 AMP circuit JUST for the microwave.

IOW, houses were NEVER designed for future electric loads. Who knew someone would invent a microwave? Or powerful stereo equipment? Or all the computing devices? Or people having a TV in every room?

The second issue is how the houses are heated and A/C. Back in the day no one had AC. Now it's everywhere. Houses can be heated with: gas (and gas stoves), electric, oil furnaces. I remember a COAL furnace, yes a coal truck dumped coal and you had to shovel it. Electric is nothing but huge toasters talking big energy. The biggest energy pulls, in order, are when its all electric:

1. Heat (and or A/C)
2. Hot water heater
3. Dryers

So if the house has gas, then you can get away with a much smaller electric service because gas is doing the heating for the house and water and clothes.

So now you want to put in 64 amps, 50 amp draw 240V. Many houses certainly can't handle it if they are all electric. So now the big money comes. Increase the service to the house and a new panel.

Then as Robert M said, you better hope the panel is close to where the charger is going. I know mine would be on the entire opposite side of the house and the lines to be pulled would be long.

IOW, its not anywhere as simple as it sounds.

What you see in that initial 1% of vehicles are the early adopters with low hanging fruit. The easy stuff. It in no way represent the bulk of the US issues with electric charging at home. And that ignore the electrical pull from the grid if everyone plugged in.

So for example, its night time in the winter and 12F here. Thats -11C, Heat pumps don't work good below 20F. So the giant toaster goes on. That can pull 50 amps. Taking a shower? Could be 30 amps for the hot water heater. Dryer on? 30 more amps. Then there is the background load, the bare money to survive. That could be the refrigerator and every device in the house that is always on and you would be amazed how much that adds up. Just look at all the little LED lights on in every room, all a parasitic draw. Adding another 50 AMPs to charge ONE car? I think it will overload many houses that were never intended to have such a load. But the EV advocated NEVER talk about that. 🙈🙉🙊

These are sunk costs and the time to the breakeven point has to be calculated. If you get rid of the house, or car, prior to breakeven, who want to throw money away?

Which is why I wrote America might have started the EV revolution but the baton will be carried on else where.

Even very old houses over here will have had their wiring brought up to date at some point, definitely beyond the levels you are referring to. That said there are houses not far from my business that don’t have garages or even driveways so self charging appears to be not an option for them and I am sure this is repeated else where in every country so governments will have to come up with a solution if they expect us to make the switch to EV, that’s if their ban of ICE sales by 2035 it be believed.

I know was are jumping ahead of the present which is the Macan EV but in the near future next 10 years battery technology has to have reached a point where we can drive our EVs to the equivalent to a filling station and top up in 5-10 mins and drive away, only then can they truly replace fossil fuel cars.

Is this possible? I reckon so especially when you think in less then 70 years or so man took to the air and then landed a man on the moon.

 

[trusted]

Got a random data point re EV infrastructure cost.
A friends underground garage management just approved all 80 spots for added EV hookup.
Cost to lay the main cable and stuff 500K. Additional cost per spot 6K-8K depending on location.
He has two spots. That's a 20K bill. And he doesn't even have a EV.

Although not a true EV I just had the "pleasure" to drive a MG HS Plug-in Hybrid for two weeks.
This was arguably the absolute worst car I've ever driven. Drive one if you get the chance...it's a treat lol.
Maybe I'll take the time for a detailed write up.

 

[grim]

😭

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-yearlong-review-update-1-sunrun-backup-power/

I have a common 100-amp electrical panel and the Lightning's charger draws up to 80 amps

 

[reguy]

Got a random data point re EV infrastructure cost.
A friends underground garage management just approved all 80 spots for added EV hookup.
Cost to lay the main cable and stuff 500K. Additional cost per spot 6K-8K depending on location.
He has two spots. That's a 20K bill. And he doesn't even have a EV.

Although not a true EV I just had the "pleasure" to drive a MG HS Plug-in Hybrid for two weeks.
This was arguably the absolute worst car I've ever driven. Drive one if you get the chance...it's a treat lol.
Maybe I'll take the time for a detailed write up.

Wow, expensive work! Not sure of the arrangement involving your friend but it sounds like a condo. If so, it would seem likely a vote of unit owners would probably have been required given the nature and cost of the project. Also, while the cost still hurts, that will likely result in an increase in the cost basis of each unit owner’s property so it would reduce a potential taxable capital gain on the sale of the unit, but given the Federal $250k exemption per owner on owner occupied, primary residence, property ($500k if jointly owned) the increase in basis may not be needed.

 

[Footie]

Got a random data point re EV infrastructure cost.
A friends underground garage management just approved all 80 spots for added EV hookup.
Cost to lay the main cable and stuff 500K. Additional cost per spot 6K-8K depending on location.
He has two spots. That's a 20K bill. And he doesn't even have a EV.

Although not a true EV I just had the "pleasure" to drive a MG HS Plug-in Hybrid for two weeks.
This was arguably the absolute worst car I've ever driven. Drive one if you get the chance...it's a treat lol.
Maybe I'll take the time for a detailed write up.

The reason for the sizeable bill is 80 slots will probably need the nearest power station upgraded to take the extra load, we did this for our business when we expanded last time and that bill was £160K, so add in all the install for all 80 units doesn’t sound too bad.

BTW when we changed one of our manager’s cars we looked at a Golf GTD and the Golf GTE plug-in Hybrid, the Hybrid is crap and can’t imagine why anyone would consider them. Either go EV or ICE not in between.

 

[Footie]

😭

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-yearlong-review-update-1-sunrun-backup-power/

I have a common 100-amp electrical panel and the Lightning's charger draws up to 80 amps

Would a generator not be a cheaper solution if power outages are common? A commercial generator wouldn’t be more than 20K and that’s something to run a sizeable business not a modest home.