We are no where NEAR moving out of early adoption. Lets look at some mainstream articles, not EV blogs or the EV haters. First, AXIOS

https://www.axios.com/2023/08/09/electric-cars-adoption-rates

The early “majority” is elusive. THEY CAN’T SELL THE CARS. It then lists all the things like Ford and GM stopping and “Toyota was right” In the end? “It's still early in the game for electric vehicles”

Business Insider

The EV plateau is coming. It's bad news for companies like Ford and Tesla.

“as the industry runs out of enthusiastic early adopters” The first signs of that came last month when Ford dealers told Insider they had to turn away Mustang Mach-E allocations.

The EV transition trips over its own cord

The early adopters have all, well, adopted. And everyone else isn’t feeling that willing to take risks in their car buying, said Jessica Caldwell, director of insights at Edmunds.

https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/heres-the-full-story-behind-electric-vehicle-adoption

“The U.S. consumer, several car dealers recently told TheStreet, is just not yet ready for fully electric vehicles. The adoption curve, they said, has stalled somewhere between the early adopters and the masses. And there's no timeline on when the masses might begin to embrace electrification”

Which brings us to this letter. THOUSANDS of US dealers, across all brands, wrote POTUS and basically said “STOP”, consumers will not accept EVs on your schedule.

https://evvoiceofthecustomer.com

Read it yourself and of course its professional written but the essence is simple.

Forget about it. Our consumers don’t want EVs. They rot on the lots. The goals are admirable but if the consumers don’t accept them, then its over. They will come when the time is right. You can’t push this, it happens when it happens.

There are many, many more discussions but basically, I now concur with EXRO. US sales are in the innovation stage. The name Tesla is now synonymous with “EV”. Norway might have moved onto the mainstream but the US really isn’t even in the early adoption of the technology stage. Although we see it in the news a lot, IRL, I see FEW EVs, very few. I see empty chargers in Walmart lots. Even CA has a tiny percentage of EVs. And so read the EXRO curve and I get it now. Its VERY immature and like other technologies will take decades to mature.

Just look at photo sensors. The first 1 MB sensors were primitive and there is way no film would be replaced with digital. 25 years later, an iPhone sensor is good enough for 99% of people’s cameras functions, but it took more than two decades for that to happen. A car is FAR more complex. It will take many decades.

Just my opinion, but definitely in the early adopter stage, or innovation stage if you accept that definition. Its no where near mainstream acceptance and the Chicago cold thing just made it worse, regardless of the reason.

One last thing, from the US gov

https://www.anl.gov/sites/www/files/2023-12/Total Sales for Website_November 2023.pdf

The number of EV, that is BEV, is increasing, 20%, 50%, but 50% of nothing is still nothing and journalists know this but love to throw out statistics.

It INCREASED 50%! Yeah So Year over Year Nov 23, from Nov 22 70 to 90K. That’s really good. 28.5 INCREASE in ONE YEAR

In reality, its just another 20K cars, which is a pittance. Statistics. You gotta love them.

 

This is CNBC, the financial news. EVs are rotting on the lots

 

The problem with electric vehicles is they are likely to catch fire when you are charging them. And for many people that’s going to be in their garage and the **** thing is going to set your house on fire while you’re sleeping.

Everybody in my California neighborhood that has an electric vehicle has an extension cord and they are charging the **** thing in the street.

 

The problem with electric vehicles is they are likely to catch fire when you are charging them. And for many people that’s going to be in their garage and the **** thing is going to set your house on fire while you’re sleeping.

Everybody in my California neighborhood that has an electric vehicle has an extension cord and they are charging the **** thing in the street.

Do you have data that supports this?

 

Yes I definitely agree it is a trait of early adopters, but not the definition of early adopters, which is why I included the definition.

I was referring to the number of registrations per year, not the total number of EVs out there. Total number of EVs is still low but growing. Like you said, 13 years average ownership. Therefore registrations per year will be a better indication of whether EVs can dominate the market.

Total registration is the only thing that matters if you want a "green" economy. 50% of nothing is nothing. Those numbers are only used for marketing purposes.

Look at us! We increase 50% year to year. just advertising.

Looks like we found conflicting data about charging at home based on my earlier post: "Home charging is a significant part of the electric vehicle (EV)1 ownership experience, with 88% of owners who say they charge their vehicle at home “often” or “always.” from JDPowers. One thing to note is that the spglobal data source includes Brazil, India, Thailand, and mainland China. I would wager the ability to charge from home is less common there.

From Electrek, an EV Blog, heavy advocates of EVs.

EV owners are becoming increasingly frustrated with home charging

A recent study by JD Power found that EV owners have become increasingly frustrated with their home charging experience for...

electrek.co

over two-thirds of EV owners use a Level 2 charger

Refers to JD powers

https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2023-us-electric-vehicle-experience-evx-home-charging-study

"2022 and 2023 model EVs are less satisfied with their home charging speed ... than owners of 2021 model EVs"

It should be clear that as the market matures, people become more critical of the problems. Just watch what happens if it hits mainstream. We live in a society of instant gratification where everyone wants everything NOW. They won't wait for anything so they go deep in debt to get it.

Electric rates are another issues and that's part of there JD Power survey. From Carbuzz

Buying An EV In 2022 Makes You An Early Adopter, And That's OK

Just know what you're getting into.

carbuzz.com

it's absurd to think that as electric cars become more commonplace, electricity isn't going to become more expensive. Energy companies know what the market can bear for fueling a car just by driving past a gas station. ... The idea that electric companies and charging networks won't use the same model to keep profits rising over the years is magical thinking.

I could not say it better. Its a CAPTIVE audience. They will have you. To an extent, some utility companies are regulated so they must go through some commission or regulator to raise rates, but they are ALREADY on track to dual rates. They offer a regular residential rate and a special "EV" rate. Once demand is bad, just watch those EV rates skyrocket BEYOND the residential rate

You see its one thing to charge too much for heat and cooling. Thats BAD. People will be furious. But a car? You don't really need a car do you? You could take the bus or just ride share. After all, TAAS, Transportation as a Service has been discussed many times.

Trapping yourself behind a utility company, a monopoly, is a bad idea. At least with oil, there are MANY different brands of gas stations. Don't like Shell, Dutch? Go buy some Exxon, or whatever. But Electicity? NO, you are trapped, and all those other tiny energy companies get the electricity on the SAME lines as the main utility companies.

This guy is right. If EV ever gets to say 50% market, 140M EV on the road, just watch how much you pay for electricity match gas prices.

 

And here is another roadblock

Addressing an Electrification Roadblock: Residential Electric Panel Capacity – Pecan Street Inc.

Pecan Street’s new analysis explores the opportunities for policymakers and utilities to remove a significant barrier to residential electrification. By incentivizing electric service panel upgrades for existing homes and requiring larger capacity panels for new construction, we can clear the...

www.pecanstreet.org

48,000,000 houses need their electric panels upgraded. Worse

Half of new houses need upgrades 😧 even thought they are 200 AMP. And why?

What are the hurdles to electrifying a home? Contractors and experts…

Installing heat pumps and induction stoves can be costly and complex, but they boost homeowners' health and comfort — and benefit the climate too.

www.canarymedia.com

Cause they want people to dump those gas furnaces for heat pumps. Look at the chart. I have one of these heat pumps and if you got gas or oil heat, you will probably be miserable with a heat pump. But that's another subject that OT for this discussion. But its good to know WHY panels need to upgraded when adding an EV.

Trust me on this, heat pumps do not work below 20 degrees. Instead a giant toaster comes on and you can just watch your electric meter flying at 9,000 RPMs, better than a GT3.

 

I struggle to understand what problems they are having with their home charging, the electricity price has went up, HELLO the electricity has went up on their entire bill in their home, are they complaining about using their Air-con, their TV, their washing machine etc. Let’s look at this price of 15 cents/KW, how does this price compare to going to a commercial charging station or better still let’s take the Taycan and its 83KW usage capacity (I think it’s that) which on average can do around 270-280 miles, so to cover 280 miles is costing those owners with a home charger less than $12.50, find me an ICE car which similar performance that will cost only $12.50 to cover 280 miles.

Next the complaint about they wished it could charge quicker, this again I am struggling with, you charge it during the wee small hours whilst you sleep so I reckon what they are doing is not topping it up often enough, if that means every night or every other night then so be it.

Fellow EVs users help me out here, am I wrong with my opinion here.

I hear people talking about when the numbers of EVs go up wait and see what they do to the price of the electricity on using them. How can they determine how the electricity is being used or what is connected to it?

If the electricity price goes up it will be across the board for every household.

 

You have a valid opinion.

The counter argument is usually that "I have to take it on a roadtrip once a year, and therefore I must have a fast charger" or "the charging station is so bad/slow". But yes, most of the time you can definitely get away charging it with the 120V already in your garage, consuming less wattage than a hair dryer. But yes there are those who don't have garages, have long commutes, and other reasonable excuses who will always be dead-set against EV and will be the loudest.

My prediction is that it will be a privilege to have an EV (people with newer houses, fast chargers, garages). Most EVs are already expensive compared to the average car and it's a luxury item. Same goes if you can afford a gas-guzzling Porsche. It's the cost you're willing to pay.

 

The price per kwh in California, from PG&E, averages from $0.30-$0.72 per kwh. I would love to see $0.15 per kwh.

 

I think those EV-haters you will never convince, they will continue to throw up a reason why they don’t want to switch to one…. which I don’t have a problem with, if they don’t want one then don’t buy one because there are plenty other cars on sale to chose from, in fact far more than there are EVs.

Yup I am not trying to convince them. Just trying to counter some of the negativity and false perceptions. I was surprised to find a EV thread that is so anti-EV. Hopefully Porsche has better luck with enthusiasts.

Their perception is their reality.

Ain't that the truth.

Trapping yourself behind a utility company, a monopoly, is a bad idea. At least with oil, there are MANY different brands of gas stations. Don't like Shell, Dutch? Go buy some Exxon, or whatever. But Electicity? NO, you are trapped, and all those other tiny energy companies get the electricity on the SAME lines as the main utility companies.

This guy is right. If EV ever gets to say 50% market, 140M EV on the road, just watch how much you pay for electricity match gas prices.

Multiple discussions over other forums about how it's pretty much impossible to meter electric rates specific to EVs. They'll have to raise rates for everyone and in the meantime I'll have long recovered the cost, not that cost was a deciding factor for me.

Their a huge difference between the perception of those with an EV and those without, for a start those that have an EV still own an ICE car or have previously owned one so they actually have a benchmark to compare whilst those that don’t own one have only their opinions with no experience.

Yes I currently have a ICE, ICE w/turbo, hybrid, and EV. Each has it's merits. But I do believe that majority will realize they are holding onto a blackberry when iphones/androids have been out for years. But there will always be those still in love with their blackberry (and maybe they have a good reason to). I think sports car enthusiasts will have the most difficult perception to change.

 

Not sure if this has been discussed but if you look at the size of Britain and size of the US and how many people who live in both you are comparing apples to oranges. The US is much larger and has many more people as result I just don’t see how they would be able to get enough charging stations in the us to make it make it work. Then there is the issue I keep hearing about home charging, if you live In a condo that is not brand new there is no charging options and to get it installed is near impossible. My building is 19years old and our building has been waiting well before Covid to have the Building setup, the electric company does not want to do it, how do I know my wife is the president of the condo board. We even went as far as getting the electric vault updated to accommodate all of the ev charging but the electric company wants nothing to do with it. So how do you deal with charging if you live in a condo in a huge metropolitan area. To make matters worse there is no land and everyone is pushing for more affordable housing which equates to more condos.

 

Multiple discussions over other forums about how it's pretty much impossible to meter electric rates specific to EVs. They'll have to raise rates for everyone and in the meantime I'll have long recovered the cost, not that cost was a deciding factor for me.

See above, they can do it now.

I have a separate meter, one for daytime and another for night, we have two rates with cheaper being at night. The reason it’s cheaper is they continue to make electricity even if it’s not used because it cost more to turn off and on again so it never stops and because of this it’s better to have us using electricity and get something for it than it going to waste. I doubt it’s any different in your neck of the woods so I reckon they will continue to offer a better rate for off perk usage.

Thats TOU. We have digital smartmeters. There are no more meter readers, the digital ones can transmit usage periodically. I can pull up, to the hour, exactly how much power was used. TOU has been around for decades and doesnt require a separate meter because its the entire house.

With two meters, the ev can be on TOU and the rest of the house on residential rates, which is cheaper than peak TOU rates.

I can see my hourly usage, outside temp, and cost. On tuesday it was below freezing all day. Until 1pm spent about 45-50 cents an hour, I then put on the wood stove, temp dropped to 17F but electricity dropped to 17 cents an hour, by midnight the stove was out, 16F, and heat running, electric up to 50 cents. They know exactly what you spend money on and when.

 

The price per kwh in California, from PG&E, averages from $0.30-$0.72 per kwh. I would love to see $0.15 per kwh.

13.5 cents per kWh for me here in Washington, taxes inclusive & year-round. Amazing that Cali rates are so high considering Cali has the most EVs.

I have a separate meter, one for daytime and another for night, we have two rates with cheaper being at night. The reason it’s cheaper is they continue to make electricity even if it’s not used because it cost more to turn off and on again so it never stops and because of this it’s better to have us using electricity and get something for it than it going to waste. I doubt it’s any different in your neck of the woods so I reckon they will continue to offer a better rate for off perk usage.

Mine is a flat rate, but I would love to see peak pricing. My utility uses a lot of renewable sources so probably why we're not coal rolling and using peak pricing. I still try to charge at night though to help the grid.

See above, they can do it now.

Lol yes, if you volunteer to get separate meter you apparently get a discount based on that program. And if you wanted to, you could choose not use their separate meter. Nothing stops you from using your normal 120V plug for an EV. How are they going to prove your EV was plugged in? Look through your garage? Good luck. I could even set my plug on a smart timer to make it look like it's not an EV charging constantly.

Guess what can happen when there are TWO meters

One outcome is net-metering, where the utility pays you to store electricity at night when there is excess production and return it during the day. Net effect is you get a discount for reducing the strain on the grid. Oh wait, several utilities already do this.

 

Lol yes, if you volunteer to get separate meter you apparently get a discount based on that program. And if you wanted to, you could choose not use their separate meter. Nothing stops you from using your normal 120V plug for an EV. How are they going to prove your EV was plugged in? Look through your garage? Good luck. I could even set my plug on a smart timer to make it look like it's not an EV charging constantly.

I can look at my hourly usage, that they report wirelessly and tell you exactly what is going on, its obvious from the time of day, temp, and usage. I can see when the hot water heater goes on, the heat, the AC. They know cause they tell me, estimate, whats being used for, and the base usage, the amount you always use like outside lights at night, fridge, instant on electronics. They know. They can see millions of users and see the patterns. It does say its an estimate and they do profile but they do it to the dollar, eg hot water cost in Dec was $24. I can see exactly my base usage, which is interesting to know… they know.

 

You ain't seen nothing yet...

Request Rejected

 

There are plenty of people in the US who drive each day much more than the "average" number of miles. Range is a real concern for those people.

Also, according to the article below, people who buy EV drive fewer miles than the average US driver.

It's not just that tiny barely existent "road trip" crowd who are the EV hold outs.

Are You a Super Driver? Some States Want to Help You Go Electric. - The New York Timeswww.nytimes.com

"While the average American driver travels about 13,400 miles per year, people who buy electric vehicles today tend to drive them less than that,..." [ rest of the sentence has been deleted because of Forum Rule violation: NO discussion about climate change/global warming/etc. ]

 

There are plenty of people in the US who drive each day much more than the "average" number of miles. Range is a real concern for those people.

Also, according to the article below, people who buy EV drive fewer miles than the average US driver.

It's not just that tiny barely existent "road trip" crowd who are the EV hold outs.

Are You a Super Driver? Some States Want to Help You Go Electric. - The New York Timeswww.nytimes.com

"While the average American driver travels about 13,400 miles per year, people who buy electric vehicles today tend to drive them less than that, limiting the climate benefits of switching to a cleaner car."

I fall into the latter category doing on average only 8K miles per year and yet after I calculated the saving on fuel price compare to my M5 and even with the one extra full set of tyres I need on the i4M50 over a 3 year period than I need with the M5 I still save approximately £5K driving the i4.

If you are driving 20K miles per year that is still only an average of 55 miles per day so you could easily charge daily at night on average about 3-4 hours per night. Of course this requires actually remembering to put it on the charge but it’s a habit every EV owner already does.

 

I came across this, which is your question



You have to read the comments but the two most important ones are from an EE and a director of machine learning of a utility company. From the EE, ALL electric devices have signatures. They KNOW the signatures. Just imagine a big data base in the sky where every device has certain characteristics, it's signature. The Machine Learning director, yeah, but its not there yet, not mature. Written a year ago. Why do this? Load balancing. We all know electric is on demand. Thats why wind and solar sucks compared to hydro or fission. But basically an unlimited source, all the time, unlike for hydro or if splitting atoms. Now read

Electricity Monthly Update - Energy Information Administration

www.eia.gov

The smart meters are two way. My utility company offers incentives to shut your AC down in the summer during peak loads. Thats a VERY bad idea around here. Its the humidity, not the temp, but that is how pitiful the grid really is. Do you want a monopoly, electric, to control your devices in the house? The grid cannot handle things NOW, never mind adding a 100 X as much load for all EVs, that's just nuts. Not going to happen. We know it, they know it, everyone knows it. So? What to do? My house didn't even have a circuit for a Microwave. They NEED to expand everything. But DATA is everything.

But that's not good enough, along comes this guy, 2016, there's an App for that

Sense - Control your home energy use

Sense's consumer app makes homes smarter, empowering people to make better use of their energy, lower electricity bills, and reduce their carbon footprint.

sense.com

For a mere $300, your smart phone can tell you exactly what devices take your electricity. This is on the consumer. Not buying it. I don't need no app to tell me my bill goes up when the hot water goes on. Like duh. Some verbiage

Find Out Which Appliance Is Sucking All Your Power

Sense’s $299 gadget identifies individual devices in the home and exactly how much electricity they are using.

www.technologyreview.com

But that's doesn't help the power company. Read The Determination of Load Profiles and Power Consumptions of Home Appliances This is some really scary stuff in here. They can know when you opened your refrigerator door!!!! Thats freaky. They know EVERYTHING, but that's still not good enough, cause it needs sensors.

Enter ... "Non-intrusive Electric-vehicle Load Disaggregation Algorithm for a Data-driven EV Integration Strategy"

Request Rejected

Gotta love these names. Yes, they are hunting down EXACTLY what EV chargers are doing by reading the smart meter usage. and

Request Rejected

You gotta love modern technology. Of course they can find your charger. So is this being used? Oh yeah, its coming. Lets take a look see at CO, their pilot program. You have to love their names too. Disaggregation? What a great name for "ripping apart your smart meter usage and determining who is using an EV charger!"

Electric Vehicle Load Detection and Disaggregation Pilot

And you think you are going to hide your L1 charging? 😂 Guess again. Quote:

"Detecting the EV level of charging speed – i.e. – level 1 (L1), level 2 (L2), possibly level 3 (L3) charging speeds"

More interesting, here is one of the comments, from a company complaining, HEY, USE MY SOFTWARE! 😃

https://www.dora.state.co.us/pls/efi/efi_p2_v2_demo.show_document?p_dms_document_id=975860

Sure enough, there are companies that already do this like Sagewell

EVFinder Advanced AI and Machine Learning

I bet you thought I was joking about hunting down your EV. Nope. Gotta love their name EVFINDER 😅 There are others like Bidgely AI-Powered EV Detection and Estimation Helps Utilities Realize the Promise of the EV Revolution These are not sold, AFAIK, to consumers but are B2B so chances are you will never hear of them. Technology moves faster and faster, a few papers on this

AUTOMATED DETECTION OF ELECTRIC VEHICLES IN HOURLY SMART METER DATA

A Deep Generative Model for Non-Intrusive Identification of EV Charging Profiles

Just like the hardware in EVs is in its infancy, the ability to determine if your EV is charging via AFI meters is also in its infancy, but its necessary to load management. Its coming, and they WILL know exactly how you are charging, how much, and how long. There will be a data base of electronic signatures. And once they got that data, what's next? 🙂 its all about supply and demand. If there were 100% penetration of the vehicle market, all ICE gone, all fossil usage gone, you must know they will get what the market will bear. They will hunt down and track your charging because its takes up too much of the available bandwidth.

See they aren't going to cut off your heat in the winter, but they can certainly increase your rates for charging a car.

They are telling you that the technology exists NOW, its in the innovative state, they EXPECT to use it in the future. Pay attention, they are telling you 😀

You will not be "hiding" your EV charging among other electric devices.

 

You will not be "hiding" your EV charging among other electric devices.

Why not? If you can hide speeding with radar detector blockers, internet piracy with VPN, internet transactions via crypto black market, it's just a matter of time before they come up with ways to hide EV charging. Technology will find a way.

 

These is a change of the totally negative direction this thread has taken but after watching the AutomannNL video of the Lotus Eletre and its acceleration time between 100-200km/h was just as quick as they achieved with the Cayenne Turbo GT, this Lotus has the same horsepower figure as the top spec Macan EV but the Macan has reportedly an extra 300Nm of torque…. so my question is will the Macan EV be even quicker than the might Cayenne Turbo GT. 😱

 

Why not? If you can hide speeding with radar detector blockers, internet piracy with VPN, internet transactions via crypto black market, it's just a matter of time before they come up with ways to hide EV charging. Technology will find a way.

So you are saying criminals commit crimes? Its hard to argue against that. BTW, radar "blockers", jamming, is a federal felony. Of course so is internet piracy. There are legit reasons for VPNs, like some people have stalkers. But the VPN is going to turn over their info when given a warrant. And, of course, tampering with a utility meter is surely a state felony everywhere. Good to know that Criminals commit crimes

I knew Norway were well ahead of the rest of Europe with regards to sales but didn’t realise they were out selling their ICE equivalents but 4 to 1, that is amazing. Obviously if a government is fully committed to the change to EVs then getting the infrastructure in place is very doable.

Norway has reached 25% penetration into registered vehicles. Its in the Early Adopter Stage, Source

Early Adopters of Electric Vehicles: The EV Adoption Curve

Early adopters of electric vehicles are the 2nd adopter group on the EV adoption curve as per Diffusion of Innovations theory for electric car innovations.

www.exro.com

Global EV Data Explorer – Data Tools - IEA

Global EV Data Explorer - Data tools. A data tool by the International Energy Agency.

www.iea.org

It is the only country in the Early Majority stage in the world. Norway also sources 88% of its electric power from Hydro and export oil. Hydro is good, about an unlimited supply and not dependent upon the whims of weather. Hydro is a great advantage for them.

 

So you are saying criminals commit crimes? Its hard to argue against that. BTW, radar "blockers", jamming, is a federal felony. Of course so is internet piracy. There are legit reasons for VPNs, like some people have stalkers. But the VPN is going to turn over their info when given a warrant. And, of course, tampering with a utility meter is surely a state felony everywhere. Good to know that Criminals commit crimes

"Laser jammers are widely considered legal but are subject to a few more restrictions than radar detectors, depending on the state."

Are Radar Detectors Legal? Detailed State-by-State Guide (2025)

Are radar detectors legal where you live? This guide covers the radar detector laws for all 50 U.S. states.

www.automoblog.net

Those were just examples. Plus it'll be a while before the law catches up to reality, and that's IF they even decide to charge separate rates for EV charging. But who knows, maybe a separate meter will fuel the growth/modernization of the power grid.

Plus think about this. In the meantime, while they are not charging more for meters, EV owners are saving a ton on fuel (and time at the gas station).

At 8000 miles per year, that's 2078 kWh at 3.85mi/kWh. Or $280 for a Model Y.

At 8000 miles per year, that's 500 gallons of gas for my Macan S. That's $2,000 in my state. A $1,720 savings every year at just 8k miles.

 

"Laser jammers are widely considered legal but are subject to a few more restrictions than radar detectors, depending on the state."

Are Radar Detectors Legal? Detailed State-by-State Guide (2025)

Are radar detectors legal where you live? This guide covers the radar detector laws for all 50 U.S. states.

www.automoblog.net

You said RADAR not LASER. RADAR is radio and a felony, I know they are examples.

Those were just examples. Plus it'll be a while before the law catches up to reality, and that's IF they even decide to charge separate rates for EV charging. But who knows, maybe a separate meter will fuel the growth/modernization of the power grid.

They do now. Separate meter. Its real now, different rate on TOU

 

You said RADAR not LASER. RADAR is radio and a felony, I know they are examples.

They do now. Separate meter. Its real now, different rate on TOU

Sure, but my point still stands. There are both legal and illegal ways to avoid the theoretical, not-yet-implemented charging penalties against EVs. In the meantime EV owners are benefiting from all sorts of subsidies/benefits including lower rates TOU meters for charging at night, large savings vs gas in general, home charging stations, panel upgrades, etc. I don't see these benefits changing to penalties for a very long time since government is trying to move people over to EVs.

 

^As I have already said here in the UK two meter readings is a thing but here it’s used to get a cheaper rate for night time electricity be that charging your car or just using your dishwasher or washing machine at these times for cheaper electricity.

If American electricity firms use this to ripe you off then I can’t help you there but at least here it’s used for the opposite and it’s great.

 

You guys have beat this horse to death!!!

 

And yet people are still coming to see the spectacle. It's their horse to beat.

 

Don't fret, the stuttgarten has many horses to beat and they are adding one more model for us.

 

I remember when the Cayenne was introduced ... the hatred for that car was thick and yet most of them couldn’t get the whole concept that without this car Porsche were going bankrupt

I believe the Cayenne helped, but I believe It was ex-toyota employees that taught Porsche JIT inventory followed up by the release of the 986, as R&T describes below, was the first answer.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/car-design/a28621/a-look-back-at-the-car-that-saved-porsche-20-years-of-the-boxster/

"While the management team at Porsche agreed that a relatively inexpensive roadster was what the company needed, it knew it had to find a more efficient way to build the car. In 1992, Porsche turned to former Toyota engineers to help implement the Japanese company's "just-in-time" production method. ... the Boxster was a runaway success"

Sure its true the air-cooled crowed hated the Cayenne and certainly the Cayenne improved the bottom line

Between 1996 and 2003, the Boxster was Porsche's best-selling model until the Cayenne came along. And by 2007, buoyed by a growing lineup, Porsche had become the most profitable automobile manufacturer in the industry on a per-unit basis.

By the late 90s, SUVs in America were taking over from MiniVans. They started small and grew into monsters, like the Escalade and H1 Hummer. America loves everything BIG. From Porsche, they realized sports cars alone wouldn't cut it.

The origin: why Porsche announced an SUV in 1998

In the mid-1990s, Porsche had to make a far-reaching decision in order to ensure its long-term economic success.

newsroom.porsche.com

Interestingly enough, they really didn't understand what America wanted despite the Minivans. From a Reddit AMA from a Porsche Employee



If you look through it, they didn't understand Americans needed cupholders 😂 and BIG ONEs

The world is ever changing and so companies have to adapt, this is nothing different to that Cayenne all those years ago

There is a HUGE difference, a MASSIVE Difference. In the early 90s they were dying because they didn't understand the marketplace and modern manufacturing techniques. They had to have the Japanese teach them. They had to replace the 924/944 ... line with something similar to the Miata or MR2. They could not exist by the 911 along.

These are MARKET forces, FREE ENTERPRISE. People had choices.

Today its NOT MARKET FORCES. Its FORCED on Europe by their laws, for whatever reasons they chose, they do so by legislation. Porsche HAVE NO WILLING CHOICE. Thats vastly different than changing things because the market would not buy their cars anymore.

CHOICE IS GOOD. Mandates BAD 🚫

I see Zero mandates in the US despite all the hype. Goals, yes, forced legislation? No. Its totally unlike Europe. Without electrifying, Porsche would be forced out of business by European politicians, not by the free market. This is COMPLETELY different than PAG in the 1990s/early 2000s

Sorry, I have to disagree with your premise.

 

I believe the Cayenne helped, but I believe It was ex-toyota employees that taught Porsche JIT inventory followed up by the release of the 986, as R&T describes below, was the first answer.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/car-design/a28621/a-look-back-at-the-car-that-saved-porsche-20-years-of-the-boxster/

"While the management team at Porsche agreed that a relatively inexpensive roadster was what the company needed, it knew it had to find a more efficient way to build the car. In 1992, Porsche turned to former Toyota engineers to help implement the Japanese company's "just-in-time" production method. ... the Boxster was a runaway success"

Sure its true the air-cooled crowed hated the Cayenne and certainly the Cayenne improved the bottom line

Between 1996 and 2003, the Boxster was Porsche's best-selling model until the Cayenne came along. And by 2007, buoyed by a growing lineup, Porsche had become the most profitable automobile manufacturer in the industry on a per-unit basis.

By the late 90s, SUVs in America were taking over from MiniVans. They started small and grew into monsters, like the Escalade and H1 Hummer. America loves everything BIG. From Porsche, they realized sports cars alone wouldn't cut it.

The origin: why Porsche announced an SUV in 1998

In the mid-1990s, Porsche had to make a far-reaching decision in order to ensure its long-term economic success.

newsroom.porsche.com

Interestingly enough, they really didn't understand what America wanted despite the Minivans. From a Reddit AMA from a Porsche Employee



If you look through it, they didn't understand Americans needed cupholders 😂 and BIG ONEs



There is a HUGE difference, a MASSIVE Difference. In the early 90s they were dying because they didn't understand the marketplace and modern manufacturing techniques. They had to have the Japanese teach them. They had to replace the 924/944 ... line with something similar to the Miata or MR2. They could not exist by the 911 along.

These are MARKET forces, FREE ENTERPRISE. People had choices.

Today its NOT MARKET FORCES. Its FORCED on Europe by their laws, for whatever reasons they chose, they do so by legislation. Porsche HAVE NO WILLING CHOICE. Thats vastly different than changing things because the market would not buy their cars anymore.

CHOICE IS GOOD. Mandates BAD 🚫

I see Zero mandates in the US despite all the hype. Goals, yes, forced legislation? No. Its totally unlike Europe. Without electrifying, Porsche would be forced out of business by European politicians, not by the free market. This is COMPLETELY different than PAG in the 1990s/early 2000s

Sorry, I have to disagree with your premise.

We are all pointing the finger at governments for pushing EV agenda but no one seems to be questioning why this is and that amazes me. What is the real reason?

Every brand is heavily involved in their development right across the world, you look at China and they are probably leading the drive towards EV greater than any other country despite being late to the party. There has to be a logical reason for this shift beyond the claim it’s to do with climate change.

 

So much for getting an incentive for Porsche.

Source: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/every-ev-qualified-for-u-s-tax-credits-in-2024/
Attribution: “Visual Capitalist”

 

Those incentives will drop even more though if you make over a certain annual income so many people won't qualify. Because who else can afford an EV?

 

Federal tax credit applies if you lease.

 

On the value point, I had posted an article earlier about how equivalent cars are cheaper to own as EV, sometimes before incentives.

Thats 18 month old. This study is new, 3 months old and its not some auto journalists writing. The perspective is holistic, the entire cost

OVERCHARGED EXPECTATIONS:
UNMASKING THE TRUE COSTS OF ELECTRIC VEHICLES
October, 2023

It looks holistically at the cost. The EVs are not selling, Some EV companies lose money on every car, and the best quote was about there is no Moore's law for batteries. Don't hold your breath about battery costs coming down.

You can read the report and argue either side, both sides like to put out their reports. They evangelize and try to sell their points. Youtube is full of doom and gloom. And the other side too. Take your pick.

The question is whether Porsche buyers will care that much about value. I see affluent Porsche buyers buying because of brand name, and much less concerned with pricing and tech. Will it drive and excite them as a Porsche?

The affluent are the 911 crowd. I agree, they won't care much. This is not the 911 crowd. This is the utilitarian appliance buyer crowd. These are utility vehicles meant for DD, for hauling cargo and people. They are far different crowds, although some people definitely own both the sports car and SUV. Since this is the SUV crowd, then most definitely they care about value We got threads worried about MPG!

Many of the new car buyers moved up from Acuras and Lexus, and constantly compare the vehicles. Baruth’s article in TTAC explained this well

Avoidable Contact: Cayenne Won't Help Ya, Cayenne Won't Do You No Good.

“When,” I asked her, “did you realize that you, were, well, you know, an actual prostitute?”“Well,” she said, rubbing her cigarette out in the waffle-patterned wrought-iron table, shielding her eyes against the sun as it set in the distance, “I’d been dancing for a while, and there was kind of a...

www.thetruthaboutcars.com

 

I genuinely feel for you guys over in the States, for some reason that I am sure someone can explain the powers at be chose 110v for your power supply when most of the rest of the world went for 220v and there was the one picked for charging EVs. So I do see the point you make when you complain about the cost involve to adapt to a decent supply to take an EV.

All the above will be a serious stumbling point for EVs to catch on in the US in particular but I will say that most motoring journalists are very negative towards EV to the point that some of their comments are laughable. One example was a UK journalist on YouTube called Harry’s Garage who reviewed the new i5M60, lots of complains some I happened to agree with but he kept going on about its excessive weight yet recommended going for the hybrid version instead, the i5M60 is 2400Kgs so properly heavy but the 550e he suggested weighs 2230kg so hardly much of a difference. LOL

I don’t doubt the Macan EV will get its fair share of bad press because quite if it does impress them most don’t want the change and will excuses not to like it.

The only reviews where you get more balanced opinions is the Scandinavian journalists because they don’t have issues with supply or charging infrastructure which suggests to me that when we all finally catch up to them we all will be a bit more interested in the technology.

 

I don’t doubt the Macan EV will get its fair share of bad press because quite if it does impress them most don’t want the change and will excuses not to like it.

Whats Jeremy Clarkson think? He doesnt like Porsches.

 

Thats 18 month old. This study is new, 3 months old and its not some auto journalists writing. The perspective is holistic, the entire cost

OVERCHARGED EXPECTATIONS:
UNMASKING THE TRUE COSTS OF ELECTRIC VEHICLES
October, 2023

It looks holistically at the cost. The EVs are not selling, Some EV companies lose money on every car, and the best quote was about there is no Moore's law for batteries. Don't hold your breath about battery costs coming down.

You can read the report and argue either side, both sides like to put out their reports. They evangelize and try to sell their points. Youtube is full of doom and gloom. And the other side too. Take your pick.

Wiki: The Texas Public Policy Foundation (TPPF) is an American conservative think tank based in Austin, Texas.[2]

Factchecking the Texas Public Policy Foundation – Deceleration

Greg Harman In recent months, an Austin-based think tank, the Texas Public Policy Foundation, has been holding regular (lightly attended) meetings to

deceleration.news

"TPPF is a pay-to-play service that churns out papers that sound and look intellectually sound."

The whole doc reads like a hit piece. Yikes no thanks. The car and driver article does a much better job using a apples-to-apples comparison.

The affluent are the 911 crowd. I agree, they won't care much. This is not the 911 crowd. This is the utilitarian appliance buyer crowd. These are utility vehicles meant for DD, for hauling cargo and people. They are far different crowds, although some people definitely own both the sports car and SUV. Since this is the SUV crowd, then most definitely they care about value We got threads worried about MPG!

Many of the new car buyers moved up from Acuras and Lexus, and constantly compare the vehicles. Baruth’s article in TTAC explained this well

Avoidable Contact: Cayenne Won't Help Ya, Cayenne Won't Do You No Good.

“When,” I asked her, “did you realize that you, were, well, you know, an actual prostitute?”“Well,” she said, rubbing her cigarette out in the waffle-patterned wrought-iron table, shielding her eyes against the sun as it set in the distance, “I’d been dancing for a while, and there was kind of a...

www.thetruthaboutcars.com

Didn't you say EV makes sense for utility vehicles meant for DD, for hauling cargo and people? Anyway if you make the value argument it depends on which side of the coin you believe (established auto journalist vs. conservative think-tank). Car and driver does a direct comparison based on EV/ICE alternatives. Ultimately if what you say is true, then we should be able to compare value directly between ICE and EV Macan in the future and people will vote with their wallets. I don't think the average buyer is very rational and will do a side-by-side cost comparison though.