[TigerMac]

One word from across the atlantic, and home of all Porsches.
Basically the current Macan EV appears to me not to be the final answer, but when looking at Taycan performance (have driven several times, also on the Hockenheimring, though behind an instructor, but with PASM off) it is a great car to drive. Nowadays accelerating in 2.4s is world class, combined with a great chassis and suspension it is solely fun to race. Not even my 1000cc Yamaha moto did go like this. Macan's real issue for me is that they copied too much from Audi in the first place. Macan configurator shows already a gearbox option button, but only for 1 gear. With the Taycan's choice of 2 gears for its engines, it would probably diffentiate from the ICE version and offer already an USP among other EVs in combination with an acceptable Porsche-style chassis & suspension.

 

[tmrqs]

One word from across the atlantic, and home of all Porsches.
Basically the current Macan EV appears to me not to be the final answer, but when looking at Taycan performance (have driven several times, also on the Hockenheimring, though behind an instructor, but with PASM off) it is a great car to drive. Nowadays accelerating in 2.4s is world class, combined with a great chassis and suspension it is solely fun to race. Not even my 1000cc Yamaha moto did go like this. Macan's real issue for me is that they copied too much from Audi in the first place. Macan configurator shows already a gearbox option button, but only for 1 gear. With the Taycan's choice of 2 gears for its engines, it would probably diffentiate from the ICE version and offer already an USP among other EVs in combination with an acceptable Porsche-style chassis & suspension.

I believe the configurator looks the way it does so it works for all Porsche cars.
Taycan will show 2 gears, Macan single transmission, Cayenne 8-Speed Tiptronic S, 911 something else, etc - but on the EVs, you don't get to choose the gearbox.

I don't see that as the Macan getting the option for different gears later on.

 

[ericsan13]

Actually, you did. You said "The very roads we hold so dear and helped vehicles dominate, were, and continue to be a result of government mandates", then referencing Federal Statutes, the earliest being from 1916.

The domination occurred without your governmental mandate. The motor vehicle became the dominate form of personal transportation in the US in, approximately, 1910. Its popularity grew explosively with the 1908 introduction of the inexpensive Ford Model T. Your 1916 Federal Statute was enacted to accommodate the already existing popularity of and domination by motor vehicles.

There is no mandate telling individuals what to buy. However, mandates that impact the type of new motor vehicles that can be manufactured and sold, impact the type of new motor vehicles that can be purchased.

Much of this seems academic at the moment. Despite the mandates, tax incentives, price cuts, and below market interest rates, EVs are not moving here in the US. The free market usually gets things right. When the product is improved, things should change.

I said they "helped", in the sense that there were synergistic forces at play. Developed roads via 'my' government mandates continue to help cars today. Take away the roads and tell me if cars will work. You cannot separate them.

Mandates that impact what you can buy are nothing new. Examples include refrigerants, firearms, drugs, hazardous chemicals, and even a full on ban of alcohol at one point in time. Where you draw the line is obviously debatable, but as far as I understand there is no federal mandate that eliminates ICE cars. They are at the state level and only several of the states have them. The automakers, though, influenced by incentives are acting on their own.

EVs have been moving (6.7% of sales in 2023 is nothing to sneeze at), but yes the transition could be faster and next year projections are currently flat. Technology continues to improve so hopefully we will see better EVs that Macan lovers will more readily accept. I say don't knock it until you've tried it. The Leaf went from 100 miles of range and a 80kW motor in 2010 to 226 miles of range and a 160kW motor in 2017. Progress is great and where you draw the line of compatibility with your lifestyle will entirely depend on your personal circumstances.

 

[ericsan13]

One word from across the atlantic, and home of all Porsches.
Basically the current Macan EV appears to me not to be the final answer, but when looking at Taycan performance (have driven several times, also on the Hockenheimring, though behind an instructor, but with PASM off) it is a great car to drive. Nowadays accelerating in 2.4s is world class, combined with a great chassis and suspension it is solely fun to race. Not even my 1000cc Yamaha moto did go like this. Macan's real issue for me is that they copied too much from Audi in the first place. Macan configurator shows already a gearbox option button, but only for 1 gear. With the Taycan's choice of 2 gears for its engines, it would probably diffentiate from the ICE version and offer already an USP among other EVs in combination with an acceptable Porsche-style chassis & suspension.

Nice to hear from someone who sees the same issue I see. Macan EV is not a very differentiated product. Taycan differentiated via the 2 gear gearbox.

The unknown potential differentiator will be how it drives and feels. We will have to wait for reviews to see if it is a truly a Porsche or just an EV like any other, but with a Porsche badge. Though I have a feeling that the electric drive train will deliver power much better than my S which is very laggy without the cobb accessport.

 

[grim]

Why invent a printing press and put a bunch of monks with pens out of work? Oh, right. It ushered in an era where just about everyone on earth gets to learn to read

False equivalence. Try an example in a modern, capitalist environment and where the solution is MORE people will buy vehicles, as in more people could read books. Compare apples to apples.

So what's the solution? What is your end game?

I don't need an endgame. The endgame I refer to is the solution 280,000,000 US registered vehicles converted to EV. This analysis shows the aftermarket parts industry doing very well post pandemic

USA Aftermarket Car Parts Market - Trends & Size

The United States Aftermarket Automotive Parts & Components Market is growing at a CAGR of 2% over the next 5 years. Magna International Inc., Continental AG, ZF Friedrichshafen AG, DENSO Corporation and Lear Corporation are the major companies operating in this market.

www.mordorintelligence.com

It also speaks to the EV aftermarket parts. There are two components that I see, the SEMA type for the modders and the FRAM filter type, instead of buying OEM parts. This report indicates that the second part makers will just start making EV drivetrain components.

In the end, I believe Toyota is correct. While he is speaking worldwide that there will be 30% penetration, I expect he is correct for the US, IOW someday I can see 93M EVs registers on US roads and they never exceed 33% penetration.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-chairman-doubles-down-electric-111721568.html

Will the modders, that is those who modify their cars as a hobby buy EVs? I doubt it. The whole point is to tinker with the drivetrains. If true, the won't buy EVs anyway and therefore the SEMA type market not effected.

 

[reguy]

I said they "helped", in the sense that there were synergistic forces at play. Developed roads via 'my' government mandates continue to help cars today. Take away the roads and tell me if cars will work. You cannot separate them.

Mandates that impact what you can buy are nothing new. Examples include refrigerants, firearms, drugs, hazardous chemicals, and even a full on ban of alcohol at one point in time. Where you draw the line is obviously debatable, but as far as I understand there is no federal mandate that eliminates ICE cars. They are at the state level and only several of the states have them. The automakers, though, influenced by incentives are acting on their own.

EVs have been moving (6.7% of sales in 2023 is nothing to sneeze at), but yes the transition could be faster and next year projections are currently flat. Technology continues to improve so hopefully we will see better EVs that Macan lovers will more readily accept. I say don't knock it until you've tried it. The Leaf went from 100 miles of range and a 80kW motor in 2010 to 226 miles of range and a 160kW motor in 2017. Progress is great and where you draw the line of compatibility with your lifestyle will entirely depend on your personal circumstances.

See posts 999 and 1,000.

 

[ericsan13]

Will the modders, that is those who modify their cars as a hobby buy EVs? I doubt it. The whole point is to tinker with the drivetrains. If true, the won't buy EVs anyway and therefore the SEMA type market not effected.

Since you doubt it, modder right here. Added integrated dashcam and carplay to my Lexus, had accessport on my Macan, and added rock sliders to my Rivian. There is a huge aftermarket market for EVs. There's more to cars than drivetrain and if I can do more, I will. Just another different, new toy to play with.

 

[grim]

Since you doubt it, modder right here. Added integrated dashcam and carplay to my Lexus, had accessport on my Macan, and added rock sliders to my Rivian. There is a huge aftermarket market for EVs. There's more to cars than drivetrain and if I can do more, I will. Just another different, new toy to play with.

No access port for an ev

sure bling, cosmetics will remain but not hardcore stuff
no wild cams or exhausts no different gearing etc

 

[rcomeau]

False equivalence. Try an example in a modern, capitalist environment and where the solution is MORE people will buy vehicles, as in more people could read books. Compare apples to apples.



I don't need an endgame. The endgame I refer to is the solution 280,000,000 US registered vehicles converted to EV. This analysis shows the aftermarket parts industry doing very well post pandemic

USA Aftermarket Car Parts Market - Trends & Size

The United States Aftermarket Automotive Parts & Components Market is growing at a CAGR of 2% over the next 5 years. Magna International Inc., Continental AG, ZF Friedrichshafen AG, DENSO Corporation and Lear Corporation are the major companies operating in this market.

www.mordorintelligence.com

It also speaks to the EV aftermarket parts. There are two components that I see, the SEMA type for the modders and the FRAM filter type, instead of buying OEM parts. This report indicates that the second part makers will just start making EV drivetrain components.

In the end, I believe Toyota is correct. While he is speaking worldwide that there will be 30% penetration, I expect he is correct for the US, IOW someday I can see 93M EVs registers on US roads and they never exceed 33% penetration.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-chairman-doubles-down-electric-111721568.html

Will the modders, that is those who modify their cars as a hobby buy EVs? I doubt it. The whole point is to tinker with the drivetrains. If true, the won't buy EVs anyway and therefore the SEMA type market not effected.

I don't see the false equivalence. Your argument is that a currently viable and vibrant market will suffer because as this moment, we don't see a purpose for aftermarket companies for EV cars since there will be little modifications, so you seem to argue against adopting EVs because it will hurt Fram and other aftermarket companies. My argument is that every big change in society (and ICE to EV is huge) will have winners and it will have losers, That is called creative destruction. Rotary phone dial makers lost their business when touch tone phones came out. Is there a credible argument that we should have stayed on rotary phones? I bet some of those suppliers figured out how to make and sell push buttons instead (not everyone is static and some see change as opportunity, not threat). What % of people who buy cars are into mods? I'd bet under 5%. Among those, I bet some will find ways to express themselves with EVs, and yet others will keep their ICE cars for that purpose. This is not representative of the other 95% who think modding is putting on a racing stripe decal on the hood.

What I meant as an end-game, I don't understand your fundamental vision. You argue that you worry about aftermarket. Ok, so what do you suggest then? What is your vision for transport in 10-20 years? Do we stay with ICE cars forever to keep Fram in business? EVs will be price equal to their ICE counterparts in a few years as batteries continue to drop in cost (they won't get cheaper than ICE because there is no incentive for manufacturers to go below what is already an established and accepted price point). In that time, a lot of the charging issues on the road will be addressed as infrastructure and the grid catch up. Do you expect the average buyer to stay with ICE cars out of nostalgia when EVs are cheaper to operate?

 

[rcomeau]

No access port for an ev

sure bling, cosmetics will remain but not hardcore stuff
no wild cams or exhausts no different gearing etc

People said that iPhones wold not take off because the could not be modded (can't install your own software, can't upgrade RAM etc...). Turns out, most people don't care about that and Apple is the most popular phone. Still plenty of Android users with their modified code on their phones, but that is a margin thing, and the rest of the world are content adding their personal choice for the phone case.

 

[reguy]

When one compares an iPhone to a car, that says it all. I have never been interested in having my iPhone, refrigerator or washing machine modded, but the ice of a car, absolutely yes.

 

[rcomeau]

Sorry, I was using an analogy. I've been told that seems to be my primary form of communication.

 

[grim]

People said that iPhones wold not take off because the could not be modded (can't install your own software, can't upgrade RAM etc...). Turns out, most people don't care about that and Apple is the most popular phone. Still plenty of Android users with their modified code on their phones, but that is a margin thing, and the rest of the world are content adding their personal choice for the phone case.

An appliance, although it caused a huge stink requiring the Librarian to grant a specific exemption to the DMCA. Read

https://www.macanforum.com/threads/pay-attention-to-this-you-might-want-to-know-about-it.167633/

and the exemptions, which specifically allowed jailbreaking.

https://www.copyright.gov/1201/2018/2018_Section_1201_Introduction_and_Recommended_Regulatory_Language.pdf

And yes, in 2022/23 iPhone sold the best, they are electronic appliances. But that didn't stop the rest of the smartphone world to basically force an exemption to the DMCA law. It mattered to them so much they wrote comments to the Librarian that were accepted basically forcing the exemption to the DMCA. Its also why you can "tune" your ECU. Without those exemptions, all those mods you see would likely be illegal and the auto alliance, AFAIK Porsche included, argued against permitting these exclusions.

 

[grim]

I don't see the false equivalence.

Two reasons

The Monks were a medieval, non-profit. They did not require transcribing scrolls to make a living. OTOH, those that build and install aftermarket parts live in a modern, capitalistic market, in the US and DO make their living making money through the work. These are completely different life.

Second, sure the results were books anyone could read, exploding the market for books. There is nothing that says building new EVs explodes the market for cars. Zero. False Equivalence.

Your argument is that a currently viable and vibrant market will suffer because as this moment, we don't see a purpose for aftermarket companies for EV cars since there will be little modifications, so you seem to argue against adopting EVs because it will hurt Fram and other aftermarket companies. My argument is that every big change in society (and ICE to EV is huge) will have winners and it will have losers, That is called creative destruction.

I don't see it as a big change. Its just another fuel source. They are still cars. They all have wheels, radios, bumpers. The only thing that changes is the drivetrain.

There is NOTHING new here. Been there, done that. It's OLD. Electric cars competed with steam and ICE for the first three decades of the 20th century. Mrs. Ford drove an Detroit Electric car. They were for the "rich". See a pattern there? They lost then, as @reguy has noted. They cost too much money. This is OLD news, a rehash. BTW, Mr. Porsche built P1, his First EV back in 1897? It's OLD.

What I meant as an end-game, I don't understand your fundamental vision. You argue that you worry about aftermarket. Ok, so what do you suggest then?

I had a simple question. Post 953

I was serious about my last question. In the end game, where 280M cars are now EVs, is the aftermarket industry dead? Do they need thousands of EEs to "tune" these cars? Or is an entire industry out of business? Or more likely, those that view them as appliances dont care about the aftermarket industry, SEMA, and the like, because you just plug it in and drive, and not modify it to make it your own.

I got no idea.

I suspect those that are interesting in serious mods won't buy EVs. The shade tree mechanics won't either because its either a hobby, to fix cars, or to save money rather than going to a shop.

What is your vision for transport in 10-20 years?

Didn't I just explain that a few posts ago? To repeat, I agree with Toyota

"I believe Toyota is correct. While he is speaking worldwide that there will be 30% penetration, I expect he is correct for the US, IOW someday I can see 93M EVs registers on US roads and they never exceed 33% penetration.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-chairman-doubles-down-electric-111721568.html"

 

[grim]

When one compares an iPhone to a car, that says it all. I have never been interested in having my iPhone, refrigerator or washing machine modded, but the ice of a car, absolutely yes.

I modded my Dishwasher once. It needed a new filter and the OEM prices were outrageous. So I bought "fram" equivalent filter. It worked fine for 1/3 the cost of OEM. 😀 that is the aftermarket parts part of the industry where the MM law comes into play. Manufacturers must allow you to use aftermarket parts and not deny warranty coverage.

 

[ericsan13]

It just seems you guys have different interests, which is purely subjective. Some people deeply enjoy their appliances. You just don't enjoy this type of EV 'appliance' because it has no traditional engine to mod (among other complaints). Yet in my eyes there are plenty of other things to mod. Is it difficult to understand that other people have other interests you don't like? If you don't like it because there's not enough aftermarket parts to your liking, simply stay away.

 

[reguy]

It’s more than the reason you mention, but I’ll be happy to steer clear as long as attractive alternatives, such as the ice Macan, remain available.

 

[TigerMac]

No access port for an ev

sure bling, cosmetics will remain but not hardcore stuff
no wild cams or exhausts no different gearing etc

How about temporary e-engine overboost/overcurrent (similar to what is offered in the Taycan already), suspension improvement/ lowering/stiffening, coding, etc...

 

[windblow]

No access port for an ev

sure bling, cosmetics will remain but not hardcore stuff
no wild cams or exhausts no different gearing etc

No need of access port for an ev when you have instant torque blowing ice away every time. Been a modder for the past 40 years and I’m happy to let the vehicle mod itself with monthly ota updates without losing its warranty!!

 

[grim]

fyi

MB Reverses Global EV STRATEGY …