[yrralis1]

Everything is a tradeoff, right? If it's relevant to point out the implications of an EVs weight, which it is, then surely it's relevant to point out the implications of an ICE engine: pollution, heat, noise, wearing parts, routine maintenance, etc. On balance, which is better? You decide. In this thread some people want to talk about wear and tear on parking garages, whereas in the larger world people are talking about a much larger problem, which apparently is off limits here, but which certainly has bearing. No honest discussion of the merits and demerits of each technology is possible unless all the facts can be presented.

That said, I think it's great to have a rants thread like this. I just wish the rants were limited to this thread and didn't bleed over to discussions about the Macan EV itself, for those of us who are already aware of what the Macan EV weighs and just want to discuss its features. I don't intrude on threads related to ICE Macans (of which I own one) to protest, "But what about emissions!", so I wish the EV opponents would show the same consideration.

if you felt the initial threads were interrupted, it grew to the point where it’s not going to happen anymore. my initial post where I said “this is depressing“ summed up a lot of hurt to see a car that I care about so much go out like this. You are the next chapter with the Macan. Good luck. With your electric Porsche.

 

[ericsan13]

Its not about the tiny pittance of Macans on US roads but the end game. There are ~280,000,000 registered vehicles on the road in the US. If they are all increased by 25% in weight as the Macan has been, who is going to pay for the damage to the US road systems? Why is that never discussed?

This is a very slippery slope argument. The amount of EVs on the road is not going to change overnight. The SUV and hybrid craze has been continuing for a long time, adding significant weight to roads but you don't see anyone picking on those issues the same way. Even regular passengers have been bloating for a long time! But oh no, EVs! lol

And it gets worse. Just as houses were never intended to take the electric loads of car chargers, the roads were never designed to haul these battery cars

Again with houses, it will happen over time. I already showed data that half of houses can support L2 chargers (assuming L2 charging is even needed). The grid will adapt.

Going back to the adoption curve we're not close to the top of the bell where mass change will happen. Market forces will adjust to address these challenges. Supply and demand.

Whats the study show?

The costs of lives lost by F=MA rivals the benefit of CO2 reduction?

Make electric vehicles lighter to maximize climate and safety benefits

Tax heavy cars and shrink batteries to consolidate the gains from electrifying transport.

www.nature.com

Everything is a tradeoff but how can you calculate the people impact of CO2? Super debatable and already off topic.

 

[reguy]

Market forces will adjust to address these challenges.

Good thought. Let’s allow market forces to determine how and when evs enter the system, not mandates.

 

[GMPNW]

Good thought. Let’s allow market forces to determine how and when evs enter the system, not mandates.

Which market forces are you referring to? The production of every energy source of which I'm aware, including oil, is subsidized one way or another. The roadway system that biases how we travel is subsidized, as are mass transit systems. The advent of EVs did not introduce the interference of regulation in our transportation choices. Government has from the very beginning shaped transit by road, rail, sea and air. Markets are real but the idea that there ever has been, or could be, an unregulated market that allocated resources as you intend is a myth. And perhaps nowhere is this more evident than in transportation, which uses public lands to extract resources and public lands to move people and products.

 

[reguy]

Which market forces are you referring to? The production of every energy source of which I'm aware, including oil, is subsidized one way or another. The roadway system that biases how we travel is subsidized, as are mass transit systems. The advent of EVs did not introduce the interference of regulation in our transportation choices. Government has from the very beginning shaped transit by road, rail, sea and air. Markets are real but the idea that there ever has been, or could be, an unregulated market that allocated resources as you intend is a myth. And perhaps nowhere is this more evident than in transportation, which uses public lands to extract resources and public lands to move people and products.

Consumer market forces of course. When ice vehicles became predominate over horse and carriage it was not as a result of governmental mandates.

 

[ericsan13]

Consumer market forces of course. When ice vehicles became predominate over horse and carriage it was not as a result of governmental mandates.

The very roads we hold so dear and helped ice vehicles dominate were, and continue to be a result of government mandates. Federal Aid Road Act of 1916, Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1921, The National Interstate and Defense Highways Act to name a few. You can't even build a house without a driveway in most places if you wanted to. Mandates and incentives can be a good thing.

 

[reguy]

The very roads we hold so dear and helped ice vehicles dominate were, and continue to be a result of government mandates. Federal Aid Road Act of 1916, Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1921, The National Interstate and Defense Highways Act to name a few. You can't even build a house without a driveway in most places if you wanted to. Mandates and incentives can be a good thing.

Apples and oranges. Roads are public, cars are not.

 

[ericsan13]

Apples and oranges. Roads are public, cars are not.

"When ice vehicles became predominate over horse and carriage it was not as a result of governmental mandates."

Cars did not become predominate on their own without government mandates. Most of the vast road and highway system is public because of government mandates. Hope you can connect this.

 

[reguy]

You are putting the cart before the horse. Initially, when the automobile was introduced, it shared the same roads as horses. The choice between a horse and a car was made by individual consumers. With the popularity of the automobile, particularly the inexpensive Ford Model T in 1908, there became a demand for better roadways that could accommodate the widespread ownership and use of cars. That is what lead to the Federal Aid Road Act of 1916. So, public funds were used to build public projects intended to improve the lives of citizens. That's what a government should do. The most significant distinction is that the mandate involved public property (roadways) not private property (cars or horses). There was no governmental mandate that forced consumers to buy cars. Individuals decided on their own whether to purchase a horse or a car. It was the free market at work. At this point in time, most consumers have chosen ice over ev. That may change over time as evs evolve and improve and consumer concerns about them are addressed. Those concerns include price, weight, range, required additional equipment (charging equipment), and resale value, among others. A Federal Tax Credit available for many of the ev cars and state/local rebates don't seem to be helping much to move ev cars. If and when evs are improved and consumer concerns are addressed, they will then become more popular. That is how the free market works. It's not, a mandate telling individuals what type of personal property they can buy.

 

[reguy]

Price cuts for evs.

Ford is slashing prices for electric cars after sales took a nosedive last month

 

[grim]

Price cuts for evs.

Ford is slashing prices for electric cars after sales took a nosedive last month

 

[tmrqs]

That is a terrible video.

• Tesla slashes prices all the time leading to insane devaluations as well.
• The valuation pulled from Car Edge on the 2023 GT has nothing to do with the announcement, that’s how MMEs have been trending.
• They start by critiquing the move but then say Ford couldn’t do anything else.

A lot of rambling and no actual information - stretched over half a hour.

 

[ericsan13]

You are putting the cart before the horse. Initially, when the automobile was introduced, it shared the same roads as horses. The choice between a horse and a car was made by individual consumers. With the popularity of the automobile, particularly the inexpensive Ford Model T in 1908, there became a demand for better roadways that could accommodate the widespread ownership and use of cars. That is what lead to the Federal Aid Road Act of 1916. So, public funds were used to build public projects intended to improve the lives of citizens. That's what a government should do. The most significant distinction is that the mandate involved public property (roadways) not private property (cars or horses). There was no governmental mandate that forced consumers to buy cars. Individuals decided on their own whether to purchase a horse or a car. It was the free market at work. At this point in time, most consumers have chosen ice over ev. That may change over time as evs evolve and improve and consumer concerns about them are addressed. Those concerns include price, weight, range, required additional equipment (charging equipment), and resale value, among others. A Federal Tax Credit available for many of the ev cars and state/local rebates don't seem to be helping much to move ev cars. If and when evs are improved and consumer concerns are addressed, they will then become more popular. That is how the free market works. It's not, a mandate telling individuals what type of personal property they can buy.

I did not say one came before the other. I am simply saying that there are synergistic forces between cars and roads. Roads existed before cars but you cannot deny that government mandates to build roads and highways literally helped paved the path for cars.

There is no mandate telling individuals what type of cars they can buy. We are thinking 10+ years from now and the landscape may be vastly different, but I believe you can still buy used ICE cars.

 

[Stealthn]

I enjoyed that Ford video, it’s just another viewpoint. I would love a Taycan as a second or third vehicle, but not primary. Canada has finally caught on and the prices are FINALLY starting to drop, so I will wait until they get under $80k.
They talk about price drop, but what about range increase; you just bought an EV that will do about 250 miles and next years model will do 450…

 

[tmrqs]

I enjoyed that Ford video, it’s just another viewpoint. I would love a Taycan as a second or third vehicle, but not primary. Canada has finally caught on and the prices are FINALLY starting to drop, so I will wait until they get under $80k.
They talk about price drop, but what about range increase; you just bought an EV that will do about 250 miles and next years model will do 450…

Biggest issue won't be the range I feel but the time it takes to charge.
The range is fine but it is quite slow to charge making it a less than ideal road-tripper.

 

[ericsan13]

Biggest issue won't be the range I feel but the time it takes to charge.
The range is fine but it is quite slow to charge making it a less than ideal road-tripper.

The same can be said about charging speeds too. A newer model may charge faster than an older model. Also applies to charging infrastructure, for example a 400 kW charger will not be able to charge even a newer car faster as the max rate is still 400 kW.

Agree with you on range but what would bring us from good to great is L3 fast chargers all over. Right now it's just adequate (outside of large metro areas).

 

[yrralis1]

I just came back from a Honda dealership. A friend was looking at the CRV . LX come without essentials (ir disc braces , allow wheels , etc). EX comes with essentials but awful color combinations and a sandpaper steering wheel (similar to the standard Porsche dash ) , EXL has essentials but its more money and looks dated .

Turn to the Hybrid and it comes with EVERYTHING !!!!! It has all the aesthetics that the others lack but what's under the hood is very different . I asked to start it . Sales guy says "its already on " . I asked how can a person in a parking lot not get run over by not hearing the car. He rolled the car forward and it make loud Star Trek noises .

My point above is the made the MUCH BETTER LOOKING car the hybrid and almost deliberately kept the ICE car looking like an old worn out toaster . Of course he wants the sport now !!!

EV will play this same card .

 

[ericsan13]

I stumbled upon some great battery maintenance knowledge that will help our lucky new Macan EV owners:

Summary:
1. Don't store at 100% charge. If you cook your battery for 200 days at a temp of 122F at 100% charge, your battery will lose 40% capacity. Store at 30% charge for 400 days at 122F and the battery will still have 85% capacity. Doesn't matter if it's cold.
2. Plug in after every trip. Low depth of discharge is ideal. If you constantly go from 60% to 40% (~50 mile trips) and charge it back, your battery will have 85% capacity after the equivalent of 3200 full cycles. That's roughly 800,000 miles before your battery reaches 85% capacity.
3. Don't regularly charge to 100%. Stay below 75% unless you want to take a road trip. Charging to 100% once in a while does not hurt.

Edit: Applies to NMC batteries (typically longer range, performance EVs). Does not apply to LFP batteries.

 

[reguy]

I did not say one came before the other. I am simply saying that there are synergistic forces between cars and roads. Roads existed before cars but you cannot deny that government mandates to build roads and highways literally helped paved the path for cars.

There is no mandate telling individuals what type of cars they can buy. We are thinking 10+ years from now and the landscape may be vastly different, but I believe you can still buy used ICE cars.

Actually, you did. You said "The very roads we hold so dear and helped vehicles dominate, were, and continue to be a result of government mandates", then referencing Federal Statutes, the earliest being from 1916.

The domination occurred without your governmental mandate. The motor vehicle became the dominate form of personal transportation in the US in, approximately, 1910. Its popularity grew explosively with the 1908 introduction of the inexpensive Ford Model T. Your 1916 Federal Statute was enacted to accommodate the already existing popularity of and domination by motor vehicles.

There is no mandate telling individuals what to buy. However, mandates that impact the type of new motor vehicles that can be manufactured and sold, impact the type of new motor vehicles that can be purchased.

Much of this seems academic at the moment. Despite the mandates, tax incentives, price cuts, and below market interest rates, evs are not moving here in the US. The free market usually gets things right. When the product is improved, things should change.

 

[rcomeau]

I looked a little into this and there are two issues. First, is the performance related aftermarket. Yeah, that's going to likely die. The counter argument tends to be the same. So what? The buggy and whip evolved to the car and many more jobs. The problem with that argument is one is going from few parts to thousands of parts. This is going from thousands of parts too few. I view it a lame argument. But I suspect they dont care about those jobs.

The second part is the parts aftermarket. You dont need to buy an OEM oil filter, buy a Fram oil filter. The counterargument is that ICE cars will be here for 50 years, so dont worry about it. I find that amusing. its still an admission that the jobs will be lost.

So what's the solution? What is your end game? We stop evolving because someone will lose their job? That argument has been made since the dawn of time. Why invent a printing press and put a bunch of monks with pens out of work? Oh, right. It ushered in an era where just about everyone on earth gets to learn to read. It created the publishing industry that created millions of jobs, facilitated he dissemination of the entirety of human knowledge to everyone and created an informed and educated public and electorate to help us go from kingdoms and dictators to democratic countries. Do you think the monks cared about any of that? Presumably some became writers in there own right (not just mechanically copying the bible for their while lives) and maybe write a book or two and others got to read them. Others may have ended up in poverty not finding a new purpose for their skills.

Not every new innovation turns out to be good, but no one can say in advance which ones will be a mistake (ahem... compact fluorescent lights...) and which ones will transform the world? Time will tell if EVs are like LED lights or if they will be the compact fluorescents of the history of transportation, but it is looking more like they will be LEDs. Sorry for those who made bulb filaments, but they had a good run.