[M GTS]

ericsan
your right luxury car owners/enthusiasts lets throw them/us in as well may have investments, may have no debt, may own the world therefore do they care of the running costs let alone pulling in to the gas station to fill up....normally its a nice quick break, get some items, use the toilet, whats the rush or loss of time when in a privileged position business postion or otherwise.

Seems you have the time having been semi banned to summarise your comparisons but does it really matter or make your day any better.
Actually your saved charging time compared to gas fills is on 9.1hrs, couple of games of golf or more time to work.
Seriously sure isn't 2nd world problems.

Sorry you copped a semi ban by the way.

 

[yrralis1]

I know you are using NOBODY as an exaggeration, but let me offer a counter-perspective on this.

First, luxury car owners (hopefully) have a lot of investments. They are accustomed to the idea of waiting for a ROI. It's the same reason Temu 2+ week shipping can still coexist with Amazon 2-day Prime shipping. The trade-off has to be worth it, and it depends on your personal situation.

Second, I see that ICE vehicles are the ones waiting to refuel. They are captive at the pump, plus the time needed to drive there. One of the greatest benefits of an EV is that you can leave home with 80-100% of an equivalent tank of gas every day. Would you worry about range if you left the house with 240-300 miles of range every day? Yes, 'NOTHING is free' and everything has a cost, but that includes time getting gas too.

While I was semi-banned these past couple days, I did some math based on my driving history which I tracked on my road-trip car hybrid SUV (19,920 miles, 804 gallons, averaging 24.8MPG) pre-covid. In the three years between 2018 to 2020, I filled my tank 81 times. Let's say 10 minutes per trip, for a total of 13.5 hours. Note that if it were the Macan I'd be making a lot more trips to the pump.

Since all those fill-ups would've been unnecessary with an EV, I'll focus on the time spent on the 8 road-trips I did during that period. I calculate I would've had to make 8 charging stops outside of the house. Let's say that I did the full Macan EV charge of 10-80% in 33 minutes at fast charging stations each time and completely ignored destination chargers. That's 4.4 hours of charging outside the home.

~13.5 hours at the gas station or ~4.4 hours at the charging station. Hope that helps put time in perspective.

19,920 miles costed $2,379.14. At the lower end of the Macan WLTP energy consumption estimates, that's 5738 kWh consumed or $775 charging at home. Not as significant to me as the time spent, but the more you drive, the more larger the time/cost difference will be.

Just as one can leave home with a fully charged car he can also leave home with a full gas car. in fact, when you say 300 miles using that as an estimate based upon certain driving style, the downside is if something eats it up you’re stranded. In contrast I’ll go to the other extreme my 911 has an extended range fuel tank, in fact, most of the Porsches do, but the Macon does not yet. I have a 500 mile range on my 911. In a light small car like that I feel like it’s forever .

You know that feeling when your iPhone is about to die and you don’t have a charger it’s with that phone call that you’re expecting is about to happen and you realize it may not make it through the call. It’s when your phone makes a little noise and says game over. The EV is that +5000 pounds . With a gas car you got a little game over pitstop on every corner. You don’t even have to fill it all the way if five minutes is too long.

 

[rcomeau]

I think the whole anxiety thing is overblown. When I first got my EV almost 5 years ago, the drive from Montreal to Boston was a bit of a challenge because there were only a few fast chargers on the route. I had one white knuckle moment when I over estimated the range driving the mountains and barely made it to the charger. Today there are multiple charge stops despite New Hampshires slow progress on that front. On major highways, there are more chargers giving you choices as to when to stop, so different conditions can be managed easily (not as easily as gas cars yet, but it is getting better). When I am driving around home, range is meaningless as I can plug in anytime I want. I typically charge every 1-2 weeks.

 

[ericsan13]

ericsan
your right luxury car owners/enthusiasts lets throw them/us in as well may have investments, may have no debt, may own the world therefore do they care of the running costs let alone pulling in to the gas station to fill up....normally its a nice quick break, get some items, use the toilet, whats the rush or loss of time when in a privileged position business postion or otherwise.

Seems you have the time having been semi banned to summarise your comparisons but does it really matter or make your day any better.
Actually your saved charging time compared to gas fills is on 9.1hrs, couple of games of golf or more time to work.
Seriously sure isn't 2nd world problems.

Sorry you copped a semi ban by the way.

Yup, you're right. It's a nice break as long as you're not standing holding pump with people waiting behind you. I don't mind taking a 30 min break in the middle of a road trip. Some might though. But to do it 81 times in 3 years sounds like a lot to me and I don't even drive that often. If it were my Macan being driven that often it would've been 122 times in three years. Good thing it's my wife's short commute car.

I told her about my analysis and she said it's insignificant. I told her the cost difference and she said across 3 years that's also insignificant. She is not wrong!

But what is important to me for whatever reason is that EVs are being painted as time wasters. To me, they are time savers! Everyone is different but let the data speak for itself. Tomorrow I'll leave the house with 60+ miles more range. I can drive like a maniac and not have to worry about eating my tank. Happy Valentines.

 

[ericsan13]

Out of business for two reasons I'd suggest:

Firstly, when a factory car is producing 1,000hp + it's already passed the point where that power is usable on the road. Maybe power distribution to the wheels could be even better controlled than now, for better grip but that's hardly going to be an aftermarket bonanza.

Secondly, and we're on familiar ground here, I'm sure Porsche will effectively tie up any loopholes that remain in their future versions of PIWIS so that it's impossible to play with their electronics.

Jules

As someone who loves modding and customizing, the future sure is coming fast. But something to keep in mind is that today's engineers may become the future's mechanics, assuming AI hasn't taken over. I am sure we will find a way to still make the cars our own. Just about anything can be hacked...just think Cobb Accessport.

 

[ericsan13]

Just as one can leave home with a fully charged car he can also leave home with a full gas car. in fact, when you say 300 miles using that as an estimate based upon certain driving style, the downside is if something eats it up you’re stranded. In contrast I’ll go to the other extreme my 911 has an extended range fuel tank, in fact, most of the Porsches do, but the Macon does not yet. I have a 500 mile range on my 911. In a light small car like that I feel like it’s forever .

You know that feeling when your iPhone is about to die and you don’t have a charger it’s with that phone call that you’re expecting is about to happen and you realize it may not make it through the call. It’s when your phone makes a little noise and says game over. The EV is that +5000 pounds . With a gas car you got a little game over pitstop on every corner. You don’t even have to fill it all the way if five minutes is too long.

Absolutely you can leave home with a full gas car. Many times I have had to make a deliberate trip the evening before a road trip to ensure I had a full tank of gas before my big trip. But that trip to the gas station had a heavy time cost associated with it.

I think rcomeau captured range anxiety well. In my area there are tons of unused charging stations and I have no fear of being stranded, especially for daily use when I can charge at home. I can even go to my local mall less than 2 miles away and charge for 100% free. Of course in your area that may not be the case. A road trip is my only concern, but I have 300 miles to figure out where to stop for a charge. Not a big deal to me.

By the way since my first iPhone 4 in 2010, the battery has never died. The battery is just that good and chargers plentiful enough that I don't have to worry about it. Hopefully you will feel that way eventually about EV range anxiety.

 

[BMinSFL]

Absolutely you can leave home with a full gas car. Many times I have had to make a deliberate trip the evening before a road trip to ensure I had a full tank of gas before my big trip. But that trip to the gas station had a heavy time cost associated with it.

I think rcomeau captured range anxiety well. In my area there are tons of unused charging stations and I have no fear of being stranded, especially for daily use when I can charge at home. I can even go to my local mall less than 2 miles away and charge for 100% free. Of course in your area that may not be the case. A road trip is my only concern, but I have 300 miles to figure out where to stop for a charge. Not a big deal to me.

By the way since my first iPhone 4 in 2010, the battery has never died. The battery is just that good and chargers plentiful enough that I don't have to worry about it. Hopefully you will feel that way eventually about EV range anxiety.

There are those who will forever fear the unknown, be hesistant and/or resistant to new things whereas others will dive-in, adapt, then realize, its different, but isn't so bad...maybe even better. I went through the same thing when having a kid. I feared the changes and how my life would never be the same. In the end, the day came, a lot of things changed, but I adapted and now life is better than before. I hope that same logic applies when I switch over one day in the coming decades.

 

[yrralis1]

There are those who will forever fear the unknown, be hesistant and/or resistant to new things whereas others will dive-in, adapt, then realize, its different, but isn't so bad...maybe even better. I went through the same thing when having a kid. I feared the changes and how my life would never be the same. In the end, the day came, a lot of things changed, but I adapted and now life is better than before. I hope that same logic applies when I switch over one day in the coming decades.

Don’t make stuff up about how people feel. This is not.” better.”. This is a forced Change with the Market never had a say in what the public would have chosen.

 

[yrralis1]

There are those who will forever fear the unknown, be hesistant and/or resistant to new things whereas others will dive-in, adapt, then realize, its different, but isn't so bad...maybe even better. I went through the same thing when having a kid. I feared the changes and how my life would never be the same. In the end, the day came, a lot of things changed, but I adapted and now life is better than before. I hope that same logic applies when I switch over one day in the coming decades.

It’s funny that you bring up the word “long trip”. The people who loved the Taycan locally with those who did a lot of short trips within a narrow range for work and leisure. It was the people who lived in Miami, but had a job either in North Miami or even Fort Lauderdale who traded in the car. They couldn’t deal with it. They forgot to charge it one night and got hammered in traffic. They were terrified. I drive to Fort Lauderdale normally is 45 minutes with no traffic. With traffic it can take 90 minutes. That’s 90 minutes of sitting in gridlock in the hot sun with the AC blasting wondering if you were going to become a giant paperweight on the highway.

This goes beyond range. The car itself does not drive as well. In fact, there is a certain linear seamlessness to the normally aspirated cars of the GT segment. Porsche tried to match it and even came up with a pretty good car in the sports car segment , but make no mistake. They kept the GT traditional. They are fighting Tooth and Nail to keep it that way.

You bring up the range you bring up the cost of the electricity. You bring up the convenience. Who’s going to pay for all the reconstruction of the roads when you’ve got a bunch of titanic vehicles driving on them ? When a compact SUV gains 1000 pounds, I can only imagine what the rest of the auto industry will become. It’ll become like a bunch of military tanks on the highway tearing up the streets and eventually someone is going to have to pay for that.

I could almost understand some of this , if Porsche arrived here on their own volition. They didn’t. In fact, it’s been just the opposite. They are clinging to their GT segment as the sacred cow and ready to sacrifice the Macan in the hopes that the non-driving buyer segment of people who just want trendy appliance will cough up the big money to have one.

 

[grim]

I went through the same thing when having a kid.

Thats a false equivalence, an informal fallacy. @yrralis1 is correct. Unless someone forced you to have a child, there is no comparison between these events.

A comparable analogy would be …

You like cooking and have an expensive gas stove, not a cheap consumer gas stove owned by the masses. But you decide that since the governnent wants to ban gas stoves you see the handwriting on the wall and give up your gas range for an electric range. And you do it when the market penetration is 1% of all ranges being electric because some states say they will mandate this consumer behavior.

 

[rcomeau]

Don’t make stuff up about how people feel. This is not.” better.”. This is a forced Change with the Market never had a say in what the public would have chosen.

I am old enough to recall the phase out of leaded gas. It was to remove lead from the air which was thought to be dangerous for human health, particularly for children. Car manufacturers said engines would wear out faster. Gas manufacturers said it would increase the price of gas. Car enthusiasts said their vintage cars could not handle unleaded gas. Sometimes things get forced on you and you may not agree in the justification. We'll have to have this discussion again in 20 years to see who was right and who was wrong.

 

[reguy]

I know you are using NOBODY as an exaggeration, but let me offer a counter-perspective on this.

First, luxury car owners (hopefully) have a lot of investments. They are accustomed to the idea of waiting for a ROI. It's the same reason Temu 2+ week shipping can still coexist with Amazon 2-day Prime shipping. The trade-off has to be worth it, and it depends on your personal situation.

Second, I see that ICE vehicles are the ones waiting to refuel. They are captive at the pump, plus the time needed to drive there. One of the greatest benefits of an EV is that you can leave home with 80-100% of an equivalent tank of gas every day. Would you worry about range if you left the house with 240-300 miles of range every day? Yes, 'NOTHING is free' and everything has a cost, but that includes time getting gas too.

While I was semi-banned these past couple days, I did some math based on my driving history which I tracked on my road-trip car hybrid SUV (19,920 miles, 804 gallons, averaging 24.8MPG) pre-covid. In the three years between 2018 to 2020, I filled my tank 81 times. Let's say 10 minutes per trip, for a total of 13.5 hours. Note that if it were the Macan I'd be making a lot more trips to the pump.

Since all those fill-ups would've been unnecessary with an EV, I'll focus on the time spent on the 8 road-trips I did during that period. I calculate I would've had to make 8 charging stops outside of the house. Let's say that I did the full Macan EV charge of 10-80% in 33 minutes at fast charging stations each time and completely ignored destination chargers. That's 4.4 hours of charging outside the home.

~13.5 hours at the gas station or ~4.4 hours at the charging station. Hope that helps put time in perspective.

19,920 miles costed $2,379.14. At the lower end of the Macan WLTP energy consumption estimates, that's 5738 kWh consumed or $775 charging at home. Not as significant to me as the time spent, but the more you drive, the larger the time/cost difference will be.

That's an interesting calculation. I think to make the comparison more complete, one would need to factor in the cost difference of each type of vehicle, and also consider the cost of insurance and maintenance of each type and the amount spent to purchase and install home charging equipment. Also, and this one would be difficult to calculate is to what degree the average cost per mile of each type changes over time. EVs apparently become less efficient over time, more so than ice. Again, it's an interesting comparison simply from a financial perspective, and putting aside all of the intangible factors which will obviously differ for each person.

 

[rcomeau]

EVs don't become less efficient over time, the batteries lose capacity (but again, that seems to be overblown as I have not noticed this in almost 5 years which is consistent to those in EV forums). Teslas have been around for a long time and we have decades of experience with hybrids and it seems the batteries will live as long as the frame. Like ICE cars, this will not be 100% correct (my buddy with an Audi with the defective engine will attest). Losing capacity does not equate to higher operating costs, You pay less to charge less, so the cost/mile stays the same.

In many cases, the cost of purchase is higher but the cost of operating is lower (electricity is cheaper than gas, no oil changes, fewer brake changes etc...) so you end up roughly equal. Batteries continue to drop in price so for regular (non-luxury cars, where price dominates buying choices which is less the case for luxury cars), the overall cost of ownership will be lower than their gas equivalents (already starting to happen).

 

[BMinSFL]

Thats a false equivalence, an informal fallacy. @yrralis1 is correct. Unless someone forced you to have a child, there is no comparison between these events.

A comparable analogy would be …

You like cooking and have an expensive gas stove, not a cheap consumer gas stove owned by the masses. But you decide that since the governnent wants to ban gas stoves you see the handwriting on the wall and give up your gas range for an electric range. And you do it when the market penetration is 1% of all ranges being electric because some states say they will mandate this consumer behavior.

That wasn't intent of my comment or example. It was to illustrate that once you try or are exposed to something new, you adapt quickly and the fears are many times, unfounded.

 

[reguy]

ericsan
your right luxury car owners/enthusiasts lets throw them/us in as well may have investments, may have no debt, may own the world therefore do they care of the running costs let alone pulling in to the gas station to fill up....normally its a nice quick break, get some items, use the toilet, whats the rush or loss of time when in a privileged position business postion or otherwise.

I think friendly arguments are best advanced by asserting facts and not generalizations and stereotypes that you believe apply to those advancing the contrary position. Also, I don't think the ability to have more time to use the toilet in any type refueling station is a highly regarded factor to most people.

 

[yrralis1]

That wasn't intent of my comment or example. It was to illustrate that once you try or are exposed to something new, you adapt quickly and the fears are many times, unfounded.

The market dictates the cars that sell . This analogy of having a child is red herring . The thoughts involved in having a child are very different than buying a car !!!

 

[BMinSFL]

The market dictates the cars that sell . This analogy of having a child is red herring . The thoughts involved in having a child are very different than buying a car !!!

My comment had nothing to do with buying a car and it used a example and not an analogy. You can move on.

 

[yrralis1]

My comment had nothing to do with buying a car and it used a example and not an analogy. You can move on.

You made the assumption that people are entrenched in their views and unwilling to change . EV is being forced on Porsche , You were not forced to have a child .

 

[grim]

If you are going to take every issue and blow it out of proportion to make an argument, well, there is not much point in arguing... I have been driving an EV for 4+ years (and ICE cars for 35+ years) and my real world experience is (so no theoretical arguments, this is my lived experience)

Specifics about what a mirror might do or rear wiper might not be signifiant, but Porsche says aerodynamics is huge.

Under the skin: Why electric car aerodynamics are so important | Autocar

Car efficiency and aerodynamics go hand-in-hand, but what does that mean for range?

www.autocar.co.uk

The Porsche R&D Manager indicates that drag, IRL, accounts for about 50% of the loss in their drive cycle testing compared to 10% for ICE.

Similary, they make a big deal about the aerodynamics for the Taycan

https://media.porsche.com/mediakit/taycan/en/porsche-taycan/die-aerodynamik

 

[grim]

I expect the techs would need a combination of skills related to computers, electricity and general mechanics.

Out of business

I looked a little into this and there are two issues. First, is the performance related aftermarket. Yeah, that's going to likely die. The counter argument tends to be the same. So what? The buggy and whip evolved to the car and many more jobs. The problem with that argument is one is going from few parts to thousands of parts. This is going from thousands of parts too few. I view it a lame argument. But I suspect they dont care about those jobs.

The second part is the parts aftermarket. You dont need to buy an OEM oil filter, buy a Fram oil filter. The counterargument is that ICE cars will be here for 50 years, so dont worry about it. I find that amusing. its still an admission that the jobs will be lost.