[cdelgado]

1. Productive discussions frequently - if not universally - consist of opposing views. You are simply taking opposing views personally because most expressed views in this thread are not in agreement with those of your own . . . perhaps that should give you some pause and consider your own views a little more closely.

2. There is no ‘tirade’ of comments against YOU. Again, you are taking opposing views personally.

3. There is a BIG difference between ‘having the same view shoved down your throat’ and being in the minority with YOUR views. It only seems like other views are being shoved down your throat because, again, (1) and (2) above.

4. Indeed, there are other forums on the internet and you are 8 posts into this forum. As far as I can tell, all are welcomed to this forum. Not one post for which I am aware has attacked you personally. YOU are making it personal.

AVM

I think you should capitalize YOU a little more often to show the tolerance.

 

[AVM]

I think you should capitalize YOU a little more often to show the tolerance.

Your comments continue to be directed at those who oppose your view and not the topic at hand.

Think about that . . .

Regarding the Rennlist subforum on the Macan EV . . . that entire subforum (all threads combined) has less posts than this one thread on the Macan forum alone. The thread with the most posts BY FAR (183 posts currently) is about the launch of the Macan EV. The second post out of the gate is as follows and comments thereafter just echo this sentiment:

“Lack of interest on Rennlist based on the general lack of interest in EVs among car enthusiasts and a large portion of the car buying public. As a Porsche I'm sure it will be great but the coming Macan EV is the reason I ordered a new Macan GTS last year... much more interested in getting one of the last ICE models vs an EV version.”

This is not personal, but you are the person at the Notre Dame football game singing the USC fight song. Great!! Sing away, but do not call out the rest of the stadium for not singing along with you.

AVM

 

[grim]

Let me make this PERFECTLY clear.

EVERYONE who contemplates, owns, or just wants to discuss, ANY Macan is more than welcome. And I will refer directly to our Community Standards. Rule 1

We expect our members to treat each other respectfully on MacanForum.com. Although ideas and opinions may be challenged, name-calling, personal attacks, or other inappropriate behavior will not be allowed and may cause your account to be banned.

If anyone feels ANY of the standards have been violated, click on the three buttons on every post and report it and the reason why. @oqjnLu@>@W or myself will respond. Do not expect either of us to read every post in every thread. If you don't report it, we won't know about it.

As to pushback from the ICE vs EV segments, what did you expect to happen? If the end game comes true, a world of electric vehicles, did you expect the longtime Porsche faithful to embrace the new technology with smiling faces when they see THEIR world crumble before them? All you've got to do is understand the history of the marque. It came about because the founder built the car of his dreams. People bought them, drove them during the week, and raced them on weekends. The company went on to DOMINATE endurance racing. Its foundation is based on world class racing. To this day they still back race teams and build race cars. It's what they do. And the people who buy these cars have a passion and loyalty that you can see from the posts themselves, and this isn't even a sports car forum. If the vehicle is an appliance to you, then it doesn't matter. It's just an expensive washing machine. But if it's something more, something where you visit your garage to just polish or see your car, if it's what you dreamed about owning all your life or buy one after another, what did you expect to happen?

Some 911 purists laughed at the lower priced cars like the 914/924/944 and successors. And then the Cayenne and Macan were built and they were not viewed kindly by some sports car buyers. And yet, here we are, some owners owning BOTH the sports cars and 4 door cars. Things change, whether it be from air cooled to water cooled, or two door to 4 door, even rear engined to mid-engined. Suddenly the race cars are "mid-engined". Imagine that.

However, this is much different than mere vehicle design. It's a revolution in drivetrain technology that forces society to change. It forces owners to WAIT to refuel, yet we live in a society of instant gratification. NOBODY waits for anything. I've expressed my frustration in that the cost to upgrade for home charging, IMO, is simply not worth ROI. I suspect I am far from being alone. NOTHING is free. Everything has a cost.

There inevitably will be discussion on electric grids, resources, expenses, the advantages or disadvantages of EVs, aesthetics, hidden costs like insurance, the abuse the pavement takes if everyone drives heavier vehicles, new technologies, and old technologies. So be it. Its why forums exists, to discuss, and to help each other. To come together to discuss common interests. This is just the beginning. NOBODY has one of these cars yet. NOBODY know the complaints or the good things. Nobody knows the problems that will come with the first year cars. Nobody knows anything. It's all speculation.

Feel free to argue away, but please do not personally attack each other. Follow our community standards. Sometimes it's best to see BOTH sides. Personally, like I said before, I can see the point of a small electric around town runabout. But no way do I intend to pay the sunk costs with trenching, year long waits for the utility company, the cost of copper rising, labor rates for electricians.

It is what it is. In the US, the public and the market will decide. Elsewhere, that's up to wherever you live. Be happy. Your money, buy whatever you want. Feel good in your own decisions. You don't need to rationalize your acquisitions by getting anyone else opinions. You paid for it. They did not.

Please be nice to each other.

thank you

 

[yrralis1]

Rennlist doesn't have a thread. It has a subforum dedicated to EVs. Macan EV - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

I had not seen it but as long you posted it .

5393 lbs (2446 kg) - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

Macan EV - 5393 lbs (2446 kg) - That is how much a Macan Turbo weighs . In contrast a current GTS weighs 4400 pounds . Macan T is 4151 pounds . It doesn't matter that Porsche tried to redistribute the weight . There is no way to hide it !! Every journalist review talks about 3.1 seconds and more...

rennlist.com

 

[yrralis1]

I had not seen it but as long you posted it .

5393 lbs (2446 kg) - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

Macan EV - 5393 lbs (2446 kg) - That is how much a Macan Turbo weighs . In contrast a current GTS weighs 4400 pounds . Macan T is 4151 pounds . It doesn't matter that Porsche tried to redistribute the weight . There is no way to hide it !! Every journalist review talks about 3.1 seconds and more...

rennlist.com

As most can see who read the thread . If the ICE car guy is the minority and even questions anything (I questioned weight ) its IMMEDIATE zealot pushback .

Maybe its time for a divorce . An EV section can homogenize the view . . Problem is that no one can even ask a question . Any hint of skepticism is met hard .

 

[AVM]

This seems relevant . . . by 'Ionna' they mean; 'I own ya.'

AVM

https://www.autonews.com/mobility-report/ev-charging-network-ionna-taps-ev-connect-exec-seth-cutler-ceo?utm_source=breaking-news&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20240209&utm_content=hero-headline

 

[grim]

OK, climate change is controversal and violates rule 8. Please dont go there again. No one is going to convince anyone else of anything. The policy is zero tolerance. First and last warning. A couple of posts removed and a couple of members need to cool down for a few hours.

Otherwise, carry on and please be nice to each other

grim

 

[reguy]

The heart of any ice performance car is and has always been its engine. With its hundreds of parts, performance car owners, if they wished and developed the skills, could tinker with it to make it run better. Auto makers of performance cars made changes to the design of the engine and its internal parts to make the cars run better. I remember when one of the car magazines ran quarter mile runs between a Dodge Viper and a 911. Neither car was designed for quarter mile runs, but each was wickedly fast. Amazingly, the six cylinder 911 beat the ten cylinder Viper, each time. Porsche seemed to have some magical engineering infused into the drivetrain. If things go the way some people think, all of that will be gone, at least for me. I can’t get too excited over a battery pack. It will be very hard for Porsche to differentiate itself and to get car owners excited the way they did before. I’m glad the electric motor in my refrigerator keeps my food cold but I can’t get excited over it.

 

[grim]

I’m glad the electric motor in my refrigerator keeps my food cold but I can’t get excited over it.

Shadetree mechanics abound in every car enthusiasts forum and have since, well since combustion engines were invented.

I never thought about this POV before but the motors? Maybe Mr Appliance can fix them? Im not trying humor here, I really dont know. Who are the mechanics? EE degrees? Never thought of this before.

Can modders mod them? Is the hobby dead?

Can SEMA and the aftermarket make them faster? Will EVs kill the aftermarket industry or will some EEs make the cars quicker than the carmakers?

 

[meerec]

I'm not certain you can express your opinion because the response is often your opinion is wrong or invalid. If you espouse support for an EV because it fits your lifestyle, be prepared for a tirade of posts as to how that can't be true. Frankly, there are other places on the web where you can have a civilized discussion about EVs with wide ranging views, instead of having the same view being shoved down your throat for 47 pages.

Exactly. That’s why today makes my LAST day here. I’m done with the trolling here. I’m removing myself completely from this forum.

 

[rcomeau]

I guess someone was thinking, push the product and then we'll see if it can be supported.

Summer Has Long Stressed Electric Grids. Now Winter Does, Too. - The New York Timeswww.ny


"For years after the 2008 financial crisis, annual electricity demand was essentially flat. The Obama administration promoted energy efficiency .... and consumers used less electricity to save money."

"But that trend has reversed in recent years as businesses have built hundreds of large data centers, each of which can use as much power as a small city, and as individuals have bought more electric cars and appliances. A major contributor in the winter is the increasing use of electricity to power heaters at homes and businesses that previously used oil or gas furnaces."

"U.S. grids are also struggling because they are importing less power during the winter from Canada."

"Aging and poorly maintained U.S. power lines and utility equipment are another major problem ....."

"growing demand for electricity would require upgrades and additions to the grid to keep the lights on, including continued use of some fossil fuels."

They said the same when everyone got an AC. The grid today is not the grid of 20 years ago and the grid in 20 year from now is not the grid of today. Most of the anti-EV arguments base their arguments on the state of things today and assume that nothing will evolve. If the rid does not evolve, EV adoption will put more stress on an inadequate grid. No argument there. The grid will adapt is the counter-argument. Don't skate to where the puck is, skate to where the puck will be.

 

[rcomeau]

The heart of any ice performance car is and has always been its engine. With its hundreds of parts, performance car owners, if they wished and developed the skills, could tinker with it to make it run better. Auto makers of performance cars made changes to the design of the engine and its internal parts to make the cars run better. I remember when one of the car magazines ran quarter mile runs between a Dodge Viper and a 911. Neither car was designed for quarter mile runs, but each was wickedly fast. Amazingly, the six cylinder 911 beat the ten cylinder Viper, each time. Porsche seemed to have some magical engineering infused into the drivetrain. If things go the way some people think, all of that will be gone, at least for me. I can’t get too excited over a battery pack. It will be very hard for Porsche to differentiate itself and to get car owners excited the way they did before. I’m glad the electric motor in my refrigerator keeps my food cold but I can’t get excited over it.

Maybe the guts of an EV are boring compared to an ICE, but the performance is there and we are early days in this new technology. Batteries will get lighter and better. Motors will get better. Lots of new and better to look forward to and get excited about and the lingo of the process will evolve as it did with ICE engines. Some of us appreciate strong and quiet over loud and strong. You say all EVs are alike, but yet some of are here looking at the Macan EV instead of a Kona or Polestar. Why?

 

[reguy]

You say all EVs are alike, but yet some of are here looking at the Macan EV instead of a Kona or Polestar. Why?

Why? Brand loyalty, status, perhaps? I liked it when you could change the cam, switch stock exhaust to headers, and on and on. Yes, more parts to maintain but that was the cost or price for the magic. Porsche did all that stuff with the stock engine and transmission. The magic would be gone for me. I realize you and others are happy with the EV mode. That’s great for you. People have different likes and preferences.

 

[grim]

Why? Brand loyalty, status, perhaps? I liked it when you could change the cam, switch stock exhaust to headers, and on and on. Yes, more parts to maintain but that was the cost or price for the magic. Porsche did all that stuff with the stock engine and transmission. The magic would be gone for me. I realize you and others are happy with the EV mode. That’s great for you. People have different likes and preferences.

Thats the hobby part, the mods, its the journey, not the end game that matters. Thats also why many modders get burned on resale in that nobody wants THEIR mods. They want their OWN journey and their own mods.

I was serious about my last question. In the end game, where 280M cars are now EVs, is the aftermarket industry dead? Do they need thousands of EEs to "tune" these cars? Or is an entire industry out of business?

Or more likely, those that view them as appliances dont care about the aftermarket industry, SEMA, and the like, because you just plug it in and drive, and not modify it to make it your own.

I got no idea.

 

[V3rlon]

2. Why are aerodynamics any more important with the EV than ICE Macan? Not so ‘obvious’ to me.

AVM

everything that impacts range hits EVs harder. You put roof rails on it, your range goes down. Put a bike rack on the rails? Your range goes down more. Put a bike on the rack? Even more. Gain 5 pounds over the holidays? Range goes down. All of these impact the EV more than the comparable ICE. It doesn’t seem to be a linear percentage of range.
Then factor in something like cold. It’s 45 outside instead of 65 (F, sorry metric friends) and you are compounding issues.

it’s like an EV is a tiny 2 cylinder engine that gets 100 mpg, but has a 3 gallon tank. Everything that hits the range hits it HARD.

Then, consider that even the most optimistic look at a refuel (20% to 80%) is like 5 time longer than a generic stop. Of course then, you have to take that max range from the website and multiply it by 0.6.

So, instead of my 425 your 300 mile range becomes 180 but if you bring the wife and you put a couple of bikes on the roof, you creep down to maybe 140, or even the high 90s in cold weather and it takes you 30 minutes or more to refuel to get your next 100 miles while I can be topped off to another 425 miles (highway) in less than 5 minutes. Unless we are at a Buckey’s, my wife is still coming back from the bathroom.

 

[rcomeau]

everything that impacts range hits EVs harder. You put roof rails on it, your range goes down. Put a bike rack on the rails? Your range goes down more. Put a bike on the rack? Even more. Gain 5 pounds over the holidays? Range goes down. All of these impact the EV more than the comparable ICE. It doesn’t seem to be a linear percentage of range.
Then factor in something like cold. It’s 45 outside instead of 65 (F, sorry metric friends) and you are compounding issues.

it’s like an EV is a tiny 2 cylinder engine that gets 100 mpg, but has a 3 gallon tank. Everything that hits the range hits it HARD.

Then, consider that even the most optimistic look at a refuel (20% to 80%) is like 5 time longer than a generic stop. Of course then, you have to take that max range from the website and multiply it by 0.6.

So, instead of my 425 your 300 mile range becomes 180 but if you bring the wife and you put a couple of bikes on the roof, you creep down to maybe 140, or even the high 90s in cold weather and it takes you 30 minutes or more to refuel to get your next 100 miles while I can be topped off to another 425 miles (highway) in less than 5 minutes. Unless we are at a Buckey’s, my wife is still coming back from the bathroom.

If you are going to take every issue and blow it out of proportion to make an argument, well, there is not much point in arguing... I have been driving an EV for 4+ years (and ICE cars for 35+ years) and my real world experience is (so no theoretical arguments, this is my lived experience):

• I hardly notice adding a roof rack. I've made many trips with my Kayak on the roof and not noticed a big change (a few% maybe).
• Cold weather definitely lowers range. My Jag was 15-30%. It lowers ICE car ranges as well, but nit as much. This only matters on road trips as when charging at home, it changes little. It does warm up faster (instant heat), so not all bad.
• Certainly adding passengers and cargo had zero effect on range
• Charging on long road trips definitely adds to the time. The Macan has more range than a lot of EVs and charges faster, so it cuts that down somewhat. When I stop at one of those highway stops to get coffee, I expect that the charge time for the Macan to only a few minutes more than the lineup at the coffee shop anyway. It takes a minute to plug in, so I am in line at the coffee shop (and charging) while a gas car is still filling up, so there is a small gain in time there. So add 10 min to those stops over gas stops. OTOH, I never need to go to a gas station at home. It take 30 sec to plug in and I don't care that it takes the night to charge, I am not standing by the car then. So 10 min/week in time gained to pay back on the road trips (so it evens out in the end). No standing by a smelly gas dispenser in the cold holding a cold metal filler handle and no smelling gas on my hands for the rest of the day driving.
• Car does chew more on the tires, but not ridiculously. I got 4 seasons out of each my summer and winter tire sets (~30k miles on each). Tire companies are evolving to make EV-specific tires to handle the extra loads (no more than a huge ICE SUV and no one is complaining about all that weight on their tires).

Anyway, all this is academic. We all get to choose what is important to each of us when buying. I've driven a lot of gas cars and loved each of them. I've had most, if not all of the early adopter issues with my EV but the difference when driving is so striking that I'll never get a gas car again. I don't miss the engine roar as much as I expected and driving the occasional ICE car and I definitely miss the instant torque a lot more. Just my preferences.

 

[reguy]

Thats the hobby part, the mods, its the journey, not the end game that matters. Thats also why many modders get burned on resale in that nobody wants THEIR mods. They want their OWN journey and their own mods.

I was serious about my last question. In the end game, where 280M cars are now EVs, is the aftermarket industry dead? Do they need thousands of EEs to "tune" these cars? Or is an entire industry out of business?

Or more likely, those that view them as appliances dont care about the aftermarket industry, SEMA, and the like, because you just plug it in and drive, and not modify it to make it your own.

I got no idea.

I expect the techs would need a combination of skills related to computers, electricity and general mechanics.

 

[V3rlon]

If you are going to take every issue and blow it out of proportion to make an argument, well, there is not much point in arguing... I have been driving an EV for 4+ years (and ICE cars for 35+ years) and my real world experience is (so no theoretical arguments, this is my lived experience):

• I hardly notice adding a roof rack. I've made many trips with my Kayak on the roof and not noticed a big change (a few% maybe).
• Cold weather definitely lowers range. My Jag was 15-30%. It lowers ICE car ranges as well, but nit as much. This only matters on road trips as when charging at home, it changes little. It does warm up faster (instant heat), so not all bad.
• Certainly adding passengers and cargo had zero effect on range
• Charging on long road trips definitely adds to the time. The Macan has more range than a lot of EVs and charges faster, so it cuts that down somewhat. When I stop at one of those highway stops to get coffee, I expect that the charge time for the Macan to only a few minutes more than the lineup at the coffee shop anyway. It takes a minute to plug in, so I am in line at the coffee shop (and charging) while a gas car is still filling up, so there is a small gain in time there. So add 10 min to those stops over gas stops. OTOH, I never need to go to a gas station at home. It take 30 sec to plug in and I don't care that it takes the night to charge, I am not standing by the car then. So 10 min/week in time gained to pay back on the road trips (so it evens out in the end). No standing by a smelly gas dispenser in the cold holding a cold metal filler handle and no smelling gas on my hands for the rest of the day driving.
• Car does chew more on the tires, but not ridiculously. I got 4 seasons out of each my summer and winter tire sets (~30k miles on each). Tire companies are evolving to make EV-specific tires to handle the extra loads (no more than a huge ICE SUV and no one is complaining about all that weight on their tires).

Anyway, all this is academic. We all get to choose what is important to each of us when buying. I've driven a lot of gas cars and loved each of them. I've had most, if not all of the early adopter issues with my EV but the difference when driving is so striking that I'll never get a gas car again. I don't miss the engine roar as much as I expected and driving the occasional ICE car and I definitely miss the instant torque a lot more. Just my preferences.

Not trying to blow it out of proportion. There are numerous looks at this where it is tested and measured, including such subtle things as putting on the roof rack all the way up to pulling a trailer. It MEASURABLY impacts EVs harder than ICE.

Cold weather (as defined as 20F or lower) saps 15% off a gas engine, though you can push that to 30% if you make numerous trips of less than 4 miles and allow the engine to warm up each time.

Cold weather (as defined as less than 40F) hits an EV for 31% on up to 50% for numerous short trips of less than 10 miles, and is further impacted by things like heating the cabin (heat for an ICE is “free” as it uses heat the engine makes anyway). Again, this is tested and measured.

I have a coworker with a Model Y who is a huge fan of EV and an excellent engineer. He has a very different approach to road trips than me because of it.

 

[ericsan13]

However, this is much different than mere vehicle design. It's a revolution in drivetrain technology that forces society to change. It forces owners to WAIT to refuel, yet we live in a society of instant gratification. NOBODY waits for anything. I've expressed my frustration in that the cost to upgrade for home charging, IMO, is simply not worth ROI. I suspect I am far from being alone. NOTHING is free. Everything has a cost.

I know you are using NOBODY as an exaggeration, but let me offer a counter-perspective on this.

First, luxury car owners (hopefully) have a lot of investments. They are accustomed to the idea of waiting for a ROI. It's the same reason Temu 2+ week shipping can still coexist with Amazon 2-day Prime shipping. The trade-off has to be worth it, and it depends on your personal situation.

Second, I see that ICE vehicles are the ones waiting to refuel. They are captive at the pump, plus the time needed to drive there. One of the greatest benefits of an EV is that you can leave home with 80-100% of an equivalent tank of gas every day. Would you worry about range if you left the house with 240-300 miles of range every day? Yes, 'NOTHING is free' and everything has a cost, but that includes time getting gas too.

While I was semi-banned these past couple days, I did some math based on my driving history which I tracked on my road-trip car hybrid SUV (19,920 miles, 804 gallons, averaging 24.8MPG) pre-covid. In the three years between 2018 to 2020, I filled my tank 81 times. Let's say 10 minutes per trip, for a total of 13.5 hours. Note that if it were the Macan I'd be making a lot more trips to the pump.

Since all those fill-ups would've been unnecessary with an EV, I'll focus on the time spent on the 8 road-trips I did during that period. I calculate I would've had to make 8 charging stops outside of the house. Let's say that I did the full Macan EV charge of 10-80% in 33 minutes at fast charging stations each time and completely ignored destination chargers. That's 4.4 hours of charging outside the home.

~13.5 hours at the gas station or ~4.4 hours at the charging station. Hope that helps put time in perspective.

19,920 miles costed $2,379.14. At the lower end of the Macan WLTP energy consumption estimates, that's 5738 kWh consumed or $775 charging at home. Not as significant to me as the time spent, but the more you drive, the larger the time/cost difference will be.

 

[acronymous]

I was serious about my last question. In the end game, where 280M cars are now EVs, is the aftermarket industry dead? Do they need thousands of EEs to "tune" these cars? Or is an entire industry out of business?

Out of business for two reasons I'd suggest:

Firstly, when a factory car is producing 1,000hp + it's already passed the point where that power is usable on the road. Maybe power distribution to the wheels could be even better controlled than now, for better grip but that's hardly going to be an aftermarket bonanza.

Secondly, and we're on familiar ground here, I'm sure Porsche will effectively tie up any loopholes that remain in their future versions of PIWIS so that it's impossible to play with their electronics.

Jules