[AVM]

@grim I appreciate the research and time you put into this. I’ve been so resistant towards the car in general that I’m learning as I go now that it seems to becoming a real event.

I’m still in the phase where I have a new Macon and the new 911. I figured the Macan might squeeze out one more car from me even without any changes if they keep it long enough. If not, then it will be a cayenne V8. After that I would have to look towards other auto manufacturers. In the end, I would be saving money. I never imagined my later years might be driving a Corvette aura my wife would be driving a CRV but for once I might get a chance to save some money.

@yrralis1

The inmates will not be running the asylum much longer . . .

AVM

 

[reguy]

I’m not throwing in the towel just yet. This EV phase may not be here to stay.

 

[grim]

@grim I appreciate the research and time you put into this. I’ve been so resistant towards the car in general that I’m learning as I go now that it seems to becoming a real event.

I’m still in the phase where I have a new Macon and the new 911. I figured the Macan might squeeze out one more car from me even without any changes if they keep it long enough. If not, then it will be a cayenne V8. After that I would have to look towards other auto manufacturers. In the end, I would be saving money. I never imagined my later years might be driving a Corvette aura my wife would be driving a CRV but for once I might get a chance to save some money.

We are all learning. I never knew or cared what amp service I had. Why should I? I added several circuits. Now I understand "how" the panel works much better but the fact remains, its short sighted ... if the end game is ALL EVs, to have only 200 AMPS, its 400 AMPs minimum. You KNOW something else is coming down the line. Sure it started with AC, heat pumps, dryers, and YET the builders didn't learn. Amazing huh? You think they learned now?

I walked around the neighborhood today, and this is anecdotal. There are NO EVs, not a one. I expected that. Most people do not use garages as garages, they are storage spaces. Some houses had 3 cars, one house had 5 cars. Its not uncommon for people to have three teenagers. Teenagers drive. All other houses had two cars. Houses are going to need a LOT more power.

And the bad part is they expect YOU to pay for the sunk costs. And if its subsidized, it just means YOU are paying for your neighbors and then we go down the politics. ....

Why should the consumer pay for something they dont want?

But much worse is how "fast" tech evolves. MY20 Taycans are dinosaurs with the depreciation to match. People quickly forget, or don't know, that's its TCO that matters, unless they got money to burn. And I believe its foolish to think that residential electric rates won't increase. They increase all the time but in the future, FOR THE END GAME, they are going to go up Big Time, for everyone, because its the capital assets where they make the money. And its the capital assets that need to be built out.

Someone mentioned that PG&E rates were outrageous today? I wonder if it could be they want to put 10,000 miles of electric underground So far, they got 600 miles out of that 10,000. Who is paying for that? Surely customers. And I've read its $1M per mile.

600 Miles and Counting: PG&E Hits Significant Milestone as Crews Safely Complete Construction, Energization of 350 More Miles of Underground Powerlines in 2023

As of this week, Pacific Gas and Electric Company (PGE) has constructed and energized more than 600 miles of underground powerlines since its ambitious 10,000-Mile Undergrounding program started in mid-2021. And the 350 miles completed in 2023 represents the most ever in a single year by PGE and...

investor.pgecorp.com

Get a BIG checkbook out.

 

[AVM]

I’m not throwing in be towel just yet. This EV phase may not be here to stay.

Yep, a LOT of garbage is about to be tossed to the curb . . .

AVM

 

[grim]

I’m still in the phase where I have a new Macon and the new 911. I figured the Macan might squeeze out one more car from me even without any changes if they keep it long enough. If not, then it will be a cayenne V8. After that I would have to look towards other auto manufacturers. In the end, I would be saving money. I never imagined my later years might be driving a Corvette aura my wife would be driving a CRV but for once I might get a chance to save some money.

Ford, GM, and other companies are cutting back on their EV strategies. Money talks and with cars rotting on lots, they have no choice. Its all over the news so I aint going to link to them. It's real.

Maybe they come back, maybe they don't. The Hertz sales is telling. No one wants to rent an EV. I don't think E-fuel will be much of anything, other than for the very rich. But alternatives can certainly happen, the biggest one being Toyotas solid state battery. I'm not to sure about Hydrogen because the Toyota Mirai already exists and I dont see it doing well. PAG has no choice, the EU has made their bed.

Since PAG is cutting off EU sales for the Macan because of some UN standard and both the US and CAN have NOT signed onto the standard, that says a LOT. Nor do I think OZ. Porsche, in the past, has built EU cars that could NOT be sold in the USA because they failed US safety standards. They could easily continue building Macans for years but its unlikely the body would stay the same because its more than a decade old.

We will see. Oh, and there is nothing wrong with a Honda, their tech is probably miles ahead of Porsches.

 

[grim]

I never imagined my later years might be driving a Corvette aura my wife would be driving a CRV but for once I might get a chance to save some money.

Let my kitchen rot . As long as the stove works I am all good !!

And just think, now you can get a new oven!

 

[yrralis1]

We are all learning. I never knew or cared what amp service I had. Why should I? I added several circuits. Now I understand "how" the panel works much better but the fact remains, its short sighted ... if the end game is ALL EVs, to have only 200 AMPS, its 400 AMPs minimum. You KNOW something else is coming down the line. Sure it started with AC, heat pumps, dryers, and YET the builders didn't learn. Amazing huh? You think they learned now?

I walked around the neighborhood today, and this is anecdotal. There are NO EVs, not a one. I expected that. Most people do not use garages as garages, they are storage spaces. Some houses had 3 cars, one house had 5 cars. Its not uncommon for people to have three teenagers. Teenagers drive. All other houses had two cars. Houses are going to need a LOT more power.

And the bad part is they expect YOU to pay for the sunk costs. And if its subsidized, it just means YOU are paying for your neighbors and then we go down the politics. ....

But much worse how "fast" tech evolves. MY20 Taycans are dinosaurs with the depreciation to match. People quickly forget, or don't know, that's its TCO that matters, unless they got money to burn. And I believe its foolish to think that residential electric rates won't increase. They increase all the time but in the future, FOR THE END GAME, they are going to go up Big Time, for everyone, because its the capital assets where they make the money. And its the capital assets that need to be built out.

Someone mentioned that PG&E rates were outrageous today? I wonder if it could be they want to put 10,000 miles of electric underground So far, they got 600 miles out of that 10,000. Who is paying for that? Surely customers. And I've read its $1M per mile.

600 Miles and Counting: PG&E Hits Significant Milestone as Crews Safely Complete Construction, Energization of 350 More Miles of Underground Powerlines in 2023

As of this week, Pacific Gas and Electric Company (PGE) has constructed and energized more than 600 miles of underground powerlines since its ambitious 10,000-Mile Undergrounding program started in mid-2021. And the 350 miles completed in 2023 represents the most ever in a single year by PGE and...

investor.pgecorp.com

Get a BIG checkbook out.

I dont think there would be as much pushback if the step was actually towards improved driving . It will, ultimately come down to the people . No one has to buy an EV . Both parties have been known to take way choices making the politics a red herring .Besides with Elon Musk being the king of EV it rather hard to point to politics . Porsche is testing the waters with their own legislation . A snapshot of the American car industry still shows giant pickup trucks with V8 engines . USA is not where Europe is on this . A 130K Macan EV will be a bipartisan failure . No one wants this and the rare clean earth person who isn't a fake on the issue cant afford it or has other priorities .

 

[rcomeau]

And those houses, with no electric, or 30 amp fuses or 60 amp, were renovated and current ones can be renovated, I wrote:

or renovating for big money, … Early adopters have a passion for their beliefs and are willing to work around the problems to achieve their goals. The price matters little. The mainstream will not.

For an end game solution, that is all 280,000,000 registered US vehicles to be converted, its going to cost far more money than the pittance being spent now, both for residential housing and the grid. Good luck getting millions of houses upgraded when people struggle in their daily lives and the average car on US roads is now 12 years, meaning millions of 15 or 20 year old cars. Making this much worse is the trend to underground utilities and the price skyrockets because of trenching coupled with skyrocketing copper costs.



Somebody needs to buy the LaserDiscs

That’s why god created early adopters. The law of diffusion of innovation shows that once a new product hits 17-20% market penetration, they hit a tipping point and its adoption accelerates. We are getting near that point.

yes there are problems and they will be solved. There is no rocket science left to deal with and it is just the task of transition which we’ve done many times throughout history. Things always start expensive those early adopters (who care less about cost and more about being first) pay for this process and the economies of scale kick in for the masses. This is a tried and true path and it is funny how every single time it seems like a new thing to so many. If you prefer an ICE car, no worries, they will be around to buy for another decade or so and by then, the grid will have stabilized and there will be an EV that once you drive, you will wonder how you waited this long. It is the way of things.

 

[AVM]

There is a direct correlation between 'opinions' being expressed and new accounts formed in this forum. . . coincidence???

AVM

 

[grim]

The law of diffusion of innovation shows that once a new product hits 17-20% market penetration, they hit a tipping point and its adoption accelerates. We are getting near that point.

You joined this forum three days ago. Welcome to the discussion, but you are hundreds of posts behind the curve. Read post 345, Ill quote a bit

… From Exro, a battery tech company in CA.

Early Adopters of Electric Vehicles: The EV Adoption Curve

Early adopters of electric vehicles are the 2nd adopter group on the EV adoption curve as per Diffusion of Innovations theory for electric car innovations.

www.exro.com

It shows the normal curve, which they define to be the first 2.5% are innovators, and this means ALL CAR REGISTRATIONS, then the NEXT 13.5% are Early Adopters, and THEN the main stream, the majority. Finally the laggards. At 1% the US is still in the innovation stage. The ONLY country in early adoption is Norway at 25%.

BTW, where did this curve come from? Here

Diffusion of Innovation Theory

The US is no where near the tipping point, and this came from a green battery company, Its in the innovative stage. CAN is not much better at 1.2%. Thats abysmal. Only Norway has moved onto the mainstream.

And our sources are identical, EM Rogers Diffusion of Innovation theory.

 

[rcomeau]

Yeah, the Macan EV was revealed a week ago and I think a lot of EV people were eagerly awaiting this, hence the surge here I think. My current Jag (I-Pace EV) hits 5 this summer (back then I was looking at the Cayenne hybrid), so I am looking around and thought the Macan EV forum would be a good place to start. Did not stop to think that the EV revolution was going to be so controversially received here. I realize that from the ICE Porsche perspective, this may be heresy (lots of Macan ICE owners seem to be coming the EV-specific forum to simply dump on the EV), but the Macan (compared to other EVs) offers faster charging, longer range and a better driver experience (not all of us want an iPad hot-melt glued to the dash) than anything else.

 

[grim]

Did not stop to think that the EV revolution was going to be so controversially received here. I realize that from the ICE Porsche perspective, this may be heresy

Its going to be an effort because the company’s heritage is racing. Its no different than when they started building the 4 door cars that was also heresy to many sports car owners. Yet here we are. This tends to be an enthusiasts forum where many view the SUV as a sports sedan, and not a utility vehicle, and for some its a DD also owning one of the sports cars too. There is bound to be pushback but all is welcome.

Its just “new”. Dont let the pushback dissuade you, nobody knows how it will turn out.

 

[meerec]

Yeah, the Macan EV was revealed a week ago and I think a lot of EV people were eagerly awaiting this, hence the surge here I think. My current Jag (I-Pace EV) hits 5 this summer (back then I was looking at the Cayenne hybrid), so I am looking around and thought the Macan EV forum would be a good place to start. Did not stop to think that the EV revolution was going to be so controversially received here. I realize that from the ICE Porsche perspective, this may be heresy (lots of Macan ICE owners seem to be coming the EV-specific forum to simply dump on the EV), but the Macan (compared to other EVs) offers faster charging, longer range and a better driver experience (not all of us want an iPad hot-melt glued to the dash) than anything else.

There ARE people here that think more like you … not many … many times over I thought this enthusiasm of the the frequent visitors here who ”own” this forum was on par with bigotry and lack of inclusion and I was ready to pull the plug and remove myself from this forum, being so annoyed and squashed by the Porsche theologians. The moderator ensured me we can speak our minds, won’t be banned, so I persevered for the fun of it, and there’s always something to learn from it all. So welcome to the forum @rcomeau … it is a forum that welcomes everyone.

 

[ericsan13]

There is a direct correlation between 'opinions' being expressed and new accounts formed in this forum. . . coincidence???

AVM

You're probably pulling in a lot of EV buyers like me who are reading some of these messages and rolling our eyes. I and others are sharing real world experience and data but believe what you want to believe. Only time will tell, but I would say most of the early adopters today are on the winning side of the equation, e.g., no more wasting time at gas stations, charging at a sixth of the price of gas at home, crazy acceleration, low center of gravity, more room, and of course multiple forms of 'cost'.

Everyone's situation is different like if you have an older home and don't want to work around charging, it prob won't work for you for some time. And that is okay. I'm looking to pick up a second EV (Macan EV) because it's a logical choice to reap the benefits. It is a logical and not an emotional purchase. I am no EV enthusiast or tree hugger or one to waste money. My wife barely drives her ICE Macan because the PDK shifting, acceleration lag, and having to get gas make it feel ancient. Does not mean it is a bad car though!

 

[reguy]

I guess someone was thinking, push the product and then we'll see if it can be supported.

Summer Has Long Stressed Electric Grids. Now Winter Does, Too. - The New York Timeswww.ny


"For years after the 2008 financial crisis, annual electricity demand was essentially flat. The Obama administration promoted energy efficiency .... and consumers used less electricity to save money."

"But that trend has reversed in recent years as businesses have built hundreds of large data centers, each of which can use as much power as a small city, and as individuals have bought more electric cars and appliances. A major contributor in the winter is the increasing use of electricity to power heaters at homes and businesses that previously used oil or gas furnaces."

"U.S. grids are also struggling because they are importing less power during the winter from Canada."

"Aging and poorly maintained U.S. power lines and utility equipment are another major problem ....."

"growing demand for electricity would require upgrades and additions to the grid to keep the lights on, including continued use of some fossil fuels."

 

[yrralis1]

I guess someone was thinking, push the product and then we'll see if it can be supported.

Summer Has Long Stressed Electric Grids. Now Winter Does, Too. - The New York Timeswww.ny


"For years after the 2008 financial crisis, annual electricity demand was essentially flat. The Obama administration promoted energy efficiency .... and consumers used less electricity to save money."

"But that trend has reversed in recent years as businesses have built hundreds of large data centers, each of which can use as much power as a small city, and as individuals have bought more electric cars and appliances. A major contributor in the winter is the increasing use of electricity to power heaters at homes and businesses that previously used oil or gas furnaces."

"U.S. grids are also struggling because they are importing less power during the winter from Canada."

"Aging and poorly maintained U.S. power lines and utility equipment are another major problem ....."

"growing demand for electricity would require upgrades and additions to the grid to keep the lights on, including continued use of some fossil fuels."

I agree with you on the electric grids . We saw how bad Texas was impacted a few years ago by a cold weather snap. We saw California face rolling blackouts in a heat wave . The biggest obstacle in my state Florida is hurricane season but the heat of last summer put a huge strain . Right now EV cars are a small segment but if the intent is growth then it will take upgrades . Older homes will also likely need upgrades too .

The new Macan weights almost 1000 pounds more than the ICE car . Porsche tried to evenly distribute the weight but there is no way to hide it . It wil burn electricity to move this monster . Every review and article talks of the 3.1 sec 0-60 time but none none call this car more nimble . In fact thats all they talked about with the Macan T .

There are a lot of reality checks coming with a change like this . Porsche was very wise not to pull ICE Macan yet from North America and it seems like post launch they are trying to rely on Brexit to keep it longer in the UK . They know they stepped in poop but the EV cheerleaders are trying to say it smells like a rose.

 

[cdelgado]

There ARE people here that think more like you … not many … many times over I thought this enthusiasm of the the frequent visitors here who ”own” this forum was on par with bigotry and lack of inclusion and I was ready to pull the plug and remove myself from this forum, being so annoyed and squashed by the Porsche theologians. The moderator ensured me we can speak our minds, won’t be banned, so I persevered for the fun of it, and there’s always something to learn from it all. So welcome to the forum @rcomeau … it is a forum that welcomes everyone.

I'm not certain you can express your opinion because the response is often your opinion is wrong or invalid. If you espouse support for an EV because it fits your lifestyle, be prepared for a tirade of posts as to how that can't be true. Frankly, there are other places on the web where you can have a civilized discussion about EVs with wide ranging views, instead of having the same view being shoved down your throat for 47 pages.

 

[AVM]

I'm not certain you can express your opinion because the response is often your opinion is wrong or invalid. If you espouse support for an EV because it fits your lifestyle, be prepared for a tirade of posts as to how that can't be true. Frankly, there are other places on the web where you can have a civilized discussion about EVs with wide ranging views, instead of having the same view being shoved down your throat for 47 pages.

1. Productive discussions frequently - if not universally - consist of opposing views. You are simply taking opposing views personally because most expressed views in this thread are not in agreement with those of your own . . . perhaps that should give you some pause and consider your own views a little more closely.

2. There is no ‘tirade’ of comments against YOU. Again, you are taking opposing views personally.

3. There is a BIG difference between ‘having the same view shoved down your throat’ and being in the minority with YOUR views. It only seems like other views are being shoved down your throat because, again, (1) and (2) above.

4. Indeed, there are other forums on the internet and you are 8 posts into this forum. As far as I can tell, all are welcomed to this forum. Not one post for which I am aware has attacked you personally. YOU are making it personal.

AVM

 

[yrralis1]

I'm not certain you can express your opinion because the response is often your opinion is wrong or invalid. If you espouse support for an EV because it fits your lifestyle, be prepared for a tirade of posts as to how that can't be true. Frankly, there are other places on the web where you can have a civilized discussion about EVs with wide ranging views, instead of having the same view being shoved down your throat for 47 pages.

At the launch of the Macan there were only two models (S and Turbo) with about 12K price difference modestly optioned . The debates (sometimes flame wars ) of S Vs Turbo revealed the passion each had behind his choice . This is different . This is the collective body of the forum reacting in furor over having the car that they love stagnate with the intent to abolish . The replacement is the type of car that makes them want to vomit . So now all those Base, S , T , GTS , and Turbo groups of the past are aligned for a common ground .

Out of curiosity I looked at Rennlist . EV is not even a topic discussed . There is only one thread and guess what in in line with the thought of the majority here . ICE Macan Facelift/Updates? - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

The day Porsche yanks ICE altogether you will have your homogenized culture forum . Maybe they will create a folder for some of the old Macan clunkers who kept the car .

I dont know where everyone else will go . My next step would be a V8 Cayenne . If that gets pulled I might consider a hybrid if its not a plug in , I want ZERO commitments to my electric bill not because I can't pay for it but because I dont want a new relationship .

No one is wishing you bad with your 5000+ pound beasts that you have yet to drive or that a review only centers on 3.1 seconds and "more range" . Porsche will be happy . The European legislators will be too . Every unit sold is a viewed as a "success" but the history of what made the Macan what is is today was built by those of us who will watch them vanish .

So you get the baton now ,. I got here 10 years ago . I hope your sentiment about the EV Macan 10 years from now is like mine about the 6 that I bought and shortly will lose.

 

[cdelgado]

At the launch of the Macan there were only two models (S and Turbo) with about 12K price difference modestly optioned . The debates (sometimes flame wars ) of S Vs Turbo revealed the passion each had behind his choice . This is different . This is the collective body of the forum reacting in furor over having the car that they love stagnate with the intent to abolish . The replacement is the type of car that makes them want to vomit . So now all those Base, S , T , GTS , and Turbo groups of the past are aligned for a common ground .

Out of curiosity I looked at Rennlist . EV is not even a topic discussed . There is only one thread and guess what in in line with the thought of the majority here . ICE Macan Facelift/Updates? - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

The day Porsche yanks ICE altogether you will have your homogenized culture forum . Maybe they will create a folder for some of the old Macan clunkers who kept the car .

I dont know where everyone else will go . My next step would be a V8 Cayenne . If that gets pulled I might consider a hybrid if its not a plug in , I want ZERO commitments to my electric bill not because I can't pay for it but because I dont want a new relationship .

No one is wishing you bad with your 5000+ pound beasts that you have yet to drive or that a review only centers on 3.1 seconds and "more range" . Porsche will be happy . The European legislators will be too . Every unit sold is a viewed as a "success" but the history of what made the Macan what is is today was built by those of us who will watch them vanish .

So you get the baton now ,. I got here 10 years ago . I hope your sentiment about the EV Macan 10 years from now is like mine about the 6 that I bought and shortly will lose.

Rennlist doesn't have a thread. It has a subforum dedicated to EVs. Macan EV - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums