[grim]

I didn't read all the posts like I should of, my bad.
It's hard to keep up with Paris over the decades, or France in general. I didn't know the Olympics were in Paris this year, for I study other subjects like financials which consumes my time and thought, and Paris came up this week while studying Tesla and EV cars in general. Was trying to decide if I should hold Tesla or buy more, and if the negative sentiment towards EV cars would soon be forgotten, in which I would buy more shares at the $160 level. Different subject/aspect but they seemed to have crossed paths. Funny how the SUV has been a target of controversy since Rush Limbaugh pointed it out in the early 90s, and now almost everybody wants one in one form or another.

NYC just installed lots of high tech license plate scanners over the streets entering the congestion zone, coming and going to charge a fee or toll. But they don't care what you drive at least.

Post 814, its now my understanding this was split along the lines of those in favor of the mayor. More important, read beyond 814 and its clear that SUVs are low hanging fruit. Their goal is no cars. Its all in their reference material. Cars bad INCLUDING EVs because of total life cycle costs.

 

[Footie]

Indeed . . .

The Macan design architecture took two major steps backward with the EV front and rear designs . . . not sure anything changed in-between the two ends?

If the new design came with a 2.9L V6 under the hood . . . I still would not want it

AVM

I suppose everyone has their own opinions on it’s looks whether they like or dislike it but one thing is for sure, ask anyone on the street that knows Porsche and one look at the new one they will instantly know it’s the Macan so the basic DNA is present if a little different from the old one.

I heard a lot of people pointing at the headlight design whether it’s the fact they have split is the problem but the top part which is what we all notice have the same theme running through it from the Taycan, 911, Cayenne and Panamera so if anything this new one is more in line current Porsche design.

The rear is another area, its design especially below the bumper is a departure but again similar to the other EV in the range so I see why Porsche did it.

 

[AVM]

I suppose everyone has their own opinions on it’s looks whether they like or dislike it but one thing is for sure, ask anyone on the street that knows Porsche and one look at the new one they will instantly know it’s the Macan so the basic DNA is present if a little different from the old one.

I heard a lot of people pointing at the headlight design whether it’s the fact they have split is the problem but the top part which is what we all notice have the same theme running through it from the Taycan, 911, Cayenne and Panamera so if anything this new one is more in line current Porsche design.

The rear is another area, its design especially below the bumper is a departure but again similar to the other EV in the range so I see why Porsche did it.

The front and rear ends look distinctly Tesla . . . and like most every other EV design.

Not sure why aerodynamic efficiency would change from ICE to EV? . . . did Porsche engineers just figure out aerodynamic efficiency, or did they ignore some of the details in the name of aesthetics ICE vehicles (form over function)?

We could discuss Porsche trying to squeeze as much juice as possible from the efficiency fruit, attempting to improve range that seems to be a priority with these environmental catastrophes being produced. However, it does not change my view that the Macan EV design architecture took two steps backward.

Ultimately, of course, aesthetics is subjective . . . if Porsche wants to gauge consumer opinion, they could certainly gain some insight from Macan enthusiasts on this forum via a poll inquiring whether the EV design a step forward or backward from ICE design?

However, as bad as it is, design architecture is the least of Porsche’s issues when it comes to their being complicit in a nefarious agenda.

AVM

 

[Footie]

The front and rear ends look distinctly Tesla . . . and like most every other EV design.

Not sure why aerodynamic efficiency would change from ICE to EV? . . . did Porsche engineers just figure out aerodynamic efficiency, or did they ignore some of the details in the name of aesthetics ICE vehicles (form over function)?

We could discuss Porsche trying to squeeze as much juice as possible from the efficiency fruit, attempting to improve range that seems to be a priority with these environmental catastrophes being produced. However, it does not change my view that the Macan EV design architecture took two steps backward.

Ultimately, of course, aesthetics is subjective . . . if Porsche wants to gauge consumer opinion, they could certainly gain some insight from Macan enthusiasts on this forum via a poll inquiring whether the EV design a step forward or backward from ICE design?

However, as bad as it is, design architecture is the least of Porsche’s issues when it comes to their being complicit in a nefarious agenda.

AVM

To answer the aerodynamics would drive things way off topic further but let’s say it’s more important with an EV than an ICE car for the obvious reasons. 😉

Places like this are a micro category of people who actually buy Macans and in general enthusiasts are very single minded hence why the word enthusiast.

 

[AVM]

To answer the aerodynamics would drive things way off topic further but let’s say it’s more important with an EV than an ICE car for the obvious reasons. 😉

Places like this are a micro category of people who actually buy Macans and in general enthusiasts are very single minded hence why the word enthusiast.

1. Why would it be off topic to discuss Macan aerodynamics in a thread about the Macan EV?

2. Why are aerodynamics any more important with the EV than ICE Macan? Not so ‘obvious’ to me.

3. Do enthusiasts enjoy design architecture any less than ‘non-enthusiasts?’ It seems to me design architecture is just as important to the non-enthusiast as the enthusiast, if not more.

AVM

 

[grim]

2. Why are aerodynamics any more important with the EV than ICE Macan? Not so ‘obvious’ to me.

Probably the same reason the rear wiper is an option and not standard and why the wheels look so different than ICE. Read about the EV tires and why you don't want ICE tires,

Article Mistakes to Avoid When Shopping for New EV Tires

Discover the latest electric vehicle (EV) tires from Michelin. Shop now and experience the ultimate in torque and performance.

www.michelinman.com

They need ALL the help they can get to increase range. Its not just the cold that's the killer but pushing the heavy vehicle through the air.

The CD is .25 New electric Porsche Macan officially revealed: SUV bestseller takes the EV plunge
CD of a macan is .35 https://media.porsche.com/mediakit/...acan-qsxxy3h9/03-downloads/03-02-specifications/03-02-Macan/PAG_Macan_TD_EN.pdf

CD Matters

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient

Taycan .22
Tesla .23

SUVs are bricks moving through the air = bad.

Frontal area is a big deal too.

Gas cars are easy, just make a bigger gas tank.

 

[AVM]

Probably the same reason the rear wiper is an option and not standard and why the wheels look so different than ICE. Read about the EV tires and why you don't want ICE tires,

Article Mistakes to Avoid When Shopping for New EV Tires

Discover the latest electric vehicle (EV) tires from Michelin. Shop now and experience the ultimate in torque and performance.

www.michelinman.com

They need ALL the help they can get to increase range. Its not just the cold that's the killer but pushing the heavy vehicle through the air.

The CD is .25 New electric Porsche Macan officially revealed: SUV bestseller takes the EV plunge
CD of a macaw is .35 https://media.porsche.com/mediakit/...acan-qsxxy3h9/03-downloads/03-02-specifications/03-02-Macan/PAG_Macan_TD_EN.pdf

CD Matters

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient

Taycan .22
Tesla .23

SUVs are bricks moving through the air = bad.

Frontal area is a big deal too.

Gas cars are easy, just make a bigger gas tank.

@grim

I get it, but what I am saying is . . .

If efficiency is SO important, then would not the same principles that make an EV more efficient also make an ICE more efficient, e.g., made to use LESS gas and exert less emissions? In other words, why is Porsche suddenly so interested in efficiency (function over form)?

I do not think I am mixing metaphors, so to speak, by inciting the following consideration . . .

Between climate and environmental concerns, one is real and the other part of a nefarious agenda. Forgetting the ‘politics’ and focusing on the only real concern, how is range efficiency offset by the lack of ‘manufacturing efficiency’ and environmental impact (devastation) associated with EVs?

AVM

 

[Noah Fect]

There can't possibly be any benefit in a low seating position in an EV from a dynamics perspective. All the weight is in the batteries, which are mounted as low as possible. The seat could be 10' off the ground and it wouldn't handle any differently. And low seating definitely isn't something Jane Boxwine is looking for in her next mom bus.

That's an own goal by Porsche IMO.

 

[AVM]

There can't possibly be any benefit in a low seating position in an EV from a dynamics perspective. All the weight is in the batteries, which are mounted as low as possible. The seat could be 10' off the ground and it wouldn't handle any differently. And low seating definitely isn't something Jane Boxwine is looking for in her next mom bus.

That's an own goal by Porsche IMO.

For ALL the downsides expressed with the Macan EV, I find the interior design to be perfectly fine according to photos available.

Why is Porsche promoting the fact that the front seats are roughly 3.3cm (1.5in) lower and the rear roughly 0.5in lower?

I do not think it was an objective on their part, nor construed as any form of advantage in terms driving enthusiasm (e.g., as with the 718 sport car chassis). It is not simply that the 718 sits lower to the ground than an SUV, but you also sit really low relative to the floor in the cabin.

Is the lower seating position simply a consequence of what the EV design offers over ICE? Not sure, but if it were simply a matter of making seats sit lower, then Porsche would have designed lower sitting seat long ago.

Instead, I SUSPECT everything is lower. For example, no engine to put under the hood, so hood height is lower and, as consequence, the front dash is lower . . . and the driver does not need to be seated as high to see over the dash and hood.

Full disclaimer, I have not taken the time to confirm everything is lower, so please feel free to correct me if I am incorrect. Also, I am ASSUMING Porsche means you sit lower within the cabin, not simply lower to the ground (the two are not mutually inclusive, although I suspect both are true with respect to comparable ICE Macan model).

Whatever the case, it seems Porsche is taking a consequence and trying to use it as an advantageous selling point.

So, are there any real-world advantages? I can think of two . . .

1. If you are tall, then I am assuming a lower seating position correlates with more headroom? Given we are talking about an SUV where the ICE Macan offered plenty of headroom, one would have to be REALLY TALL to take advantage of having more headroom.

2. Ergonomically, being seated lower would translate into allowing your legs to be more extended, which I believe is a reasonable advantage to promote.

AVM

 

[grim]

I get it, but what I am saying is . . .

If efficiency is SO important, then would not the same principles that make an EV more efficient also make an ICE more efficient, e.g., made to use LESS gas and exert less emissions? In other words, why is Porsche suddenly so interested in efficiency (function over form)?

You can read the articles below but its just what I said. Its all about range. What are three of the most important reason for EVs not becoming mainstream? Range anxiety, Cost, and infrastructure.

Its take a LOT more HP to increase the top speed of any car. The curve is not linear. SUVs are bricks. SUVs have a purpose in life, to haul people/cargo, go softroading. Their purpose is not top speed or racing. So if its an ICE brick, who cares? The gas station is down the street and making the Cd less don't really matter much. You will not be adding to the weight of the car by adding more batteries.

OTOH, if you trying to sell these EVs, then you want the MOST range you can get without adding more weight. You do that via making the cars slicker. And as one of the articles below mentions, aesthetics matter. If the car looks ugly in the front, who wants to buy it? So there is a trade-off.

Weight matters, CD matters, frontal area matters, and "looks" matter. They are all trade-offs.

15 Most Aerodynamic Electric Cars, Ranked

The aerodynamic efficiency of an electric car directly impacts its range, and these 15 models are the slickest EVs we've seen so far.

www.topspeed.com

Electric Car Range Drives Race For Aerodynamic Efficiency

With the breakthrough of electric cars, a lot of focus is now on the range. Every kWh/km of energy consumption that can be saved, makes the car cheaper.

insideevs.com

I dont know about the rest of your question but I'm pretty sure the car makers care a great deal about Cd in EVs simply to be able to increase the range of the vehicles.

Could the ICE Macan have a smaller Cd? Probably, but the "ugly" tradeoff might not be worth it compared to the range issue. Just add a bigger gas tank.

 

[AVM]

You can read the articles below but its just what I said. Its all about range. What are three of the most important reason for EVs not becoming mainstream? Range anxiety, Cost, and infrastructure.

Its take a LOT more HP to increase the top speed of any car. The curve is not linear. SUVs are bricks. SUVs have a purpose in life, to haul people/cargo, go softroading. Their purpose is not top speed or racing. So if its an ICE brick, who cares? The gas station is down the street and making the Cd less don't really matter much. You will not be adding to the weight of the car by adding more batteries.

OTOH, if you trying to sell these EVs, then you want the MOST range you can get without adding more weight. You do that via making the cars slicker. And as one of the articles below mentions, aesthetics matter. If the car looks ugly in the front, who wants to buy it? So there is a trade-off.

Weight matters, CD matters, frontal area matters, and "looks" matter. They are all trade-offs.

15 Most Aerodynamic Electric Cars, Ranked

The aerodynamic efficiency of an electric car directly impacts its range, and these 15 models are the slickest EVs we've seen so far.

www.topspeed.com

Electric Car Range Drives Race For Aerodynamic Efficiency

With the breakthrough of electric cars, a lot of focus is now on the range. Every kWh/km of energy consumption that can be saved, makes the car cheaper.

insideevs.com

I dont know about the rest of your question but I'm pretty sure the car makers care a great deal about Cd in EVs simply to be able to increase the range of the vehicles.

Could the ICE Macan have a smaller Cd? Probably, but the "ugly" tradeoff might not be worth it compared to the range issue. Just add a bigger gas tank.

Your post makes me wish there was an ‘appreciate’ option . . . as in, I appreciate your thoughts but do not ‘like’ the content.

It is like you telling me the virtues of the color black over the color white . . . while I might appreciate your perspective, it does not mean I like the color black.

What Porsche has done in an attempt to make their EV sellable does not make me like the EV any more – or at all. Honestly, I do not even appreciate what they have done . . . but I do appreciate your explanation as to why they have done it.

AVM

 

[grim]

Your post makes me wish there was an ‘appreciate’ option . . . as in, I appreciate your thoughts but do not ‘like’ the content.

lol, thats the green checkmark, ✅ option, its helpful, but doesn’t necessarily mean you like or dislike it, it just helps in understanding.

 

[ericsan13]

You can read the articles below but its just what I said. Its all about range. What are three of the most important reason for EVs not becoming mainstream? Range anxiety, Cost, and infrastructure.

Yes, I would say it mostly boils down to these three. Although I would say range anxiety seems to affect non-EV owners more than EV owners. 😅

I see a lot of Rivians primarily with either the 22" sport or 18" offroad which shave off 20mi or 50mi of range over the 21", respectively. Seems to confirm that EV buyers/early adopters know their needs (less range anxiety) while Porsche is more aggressive in targeting the mainstream (with their exterior design language/optimization of CD).

 

[yrralis1]

I watched Nick Murray's video. Its been awhile as I dont agree with him a lot. There are few things that stood out.

1) He brought up the massive deprecation of the Taycan Turbo S (guys lost 80 -100K in one year) and feels that the larger sedan has fallen out of favor . He feels the Macan has less room to tank at 125K USD vs 250K (Taycan ) . In my opinion a tank is a tank . There is no way this thing will hold value !!

2) He brought up how his current 4 year old car cost 80K and this is quite a jump . Brushes it off as Porsche being Porsche . I would agree if this were comparing ICE to ICE or EV to EV . The comparison to each other I feel is a false premise .

3) He says that he wants to drive one first and isn't in a rush . For his needs wit short city trips and a transition to solar he thinks this can work . I dont know . I talk to a lot of guys who buy things like a new roof for the house (50K ) or remodel the kitchen and I say NO WAY !! That junk will outlive me . My next door neighbors died (Covid ) . Finally after three years the kids sold the house that the parents had completely renovated before they died (never got to enjoy) . New buyer has gutted the house !!! He's old too !! I want things that can make instant memories !!! Thats what my 911 does !!! Thats what two 911's do !! Let my kitchen rot . As long as the stove works I am all good !!

4) He wont buy an EV sport car . It sounds like he thought this out .

 

[meerec]

I watched Nick Murray's video. Its been awhile as I dont agree with him a lot. There are few things that stood out.

1) He brought up the massive deprecation of the Taycan Turbo S (guys lost 80 -100K in one year) and feels that the larger sedan has fallen out of favor . He feels the Macan has less room to tank at 125K USD vs 250K (Taycan ) . In my opinion a tank is a tank . There is no way this thing will hold value !!

2) He brought up how his current 4 year old car cost 80K and this is quite a jump . Brushes it off as Porsche being Porsche . I would agree if this were comparing ICE to ICE or EV to EV . The comparison to each other I feel is a false premise .

3) He says that he wants to drive one first and isn't in a rush . For his needs wit short city trips and a transition to solar he thinks this can work . I dont know . I talk to a lot of guys who buy things like a new roof for the house (50K ) or remodel the kitchen and I say NO WAY !! That junk will outlive me . My next door neighbors died (Covid ) . Finally after three years the kids sold the house that the parents had completely renovated before they died (never got to enjoy) . New buyer has gutted the house !!! He's old too !! I want things that can make instant memories !!! Thats what my 911 does !!! Thats what two 911's do !! Let my kitchen rot . As long as the stove works I am all good !!

4) He wont buy an EV sport car . It sounds like he thought this out .

There are lots of people that are the least likely to buy an EV ever, and we know who they are.
All good. The world needs variety.
It’s rather amusing following these interesting discussions.

 

[yrralis1]

There are lots of people that are the least likely to buy an EV ever, and we know who they are.
All good. The world needs variety.
It’s rather amusing following these interesting discussions.

Even the first ice Macan came with a few problems at the launch. in your country, the cost to buy this car is tremendously higher than USA. That usually leads towards keeping the car longer. After all the guy who wants to buy a used one at the prices can afford a new one. Did you appreciation curve will be steeper if you decide to bail. Why the rush? There’s no missed opportunity here.

 

[grim]

1) He brought up the massive deprecation of the Taycan Turbo S (guys lost 80 -100K in one year)

I knew it was bad but not this bad, so I looked it up on BB lite. Its shocking 🤯 Stripped MY20 Turbo S MSRP at $185 now worth $85 at trade. Not one year but 3 years

Why would anyone take that bath? Why did it fall off a cliff?

 

[meerec]

Even the first ice Macan came with a few problems at the launch. in your country, the cost to buy this car is tremendously higher than USA. That usually leads towards keeping the car longer. After all the guy who wants to buy a used one at the prices can afford a new one. Did you appreciation curve will be steeper if you decide to bail. Why the rush? There’s no missed opportunity here.

why the rush? it is ALL my personal circumstances, that’s why everyone must evaluate theirs carefully and not be biased by emotions, passion, other people’s thoughts or context

for me this is a car I want to keep for 8 years, and I will pay cash for it by consolidating other car leases, paying them off, trading other cars in, etc.
the sooner I make the transition to EV from my GTS the more money I get for the tradein, which goes towards funding the expensive Turbo
I don’t care about depreciation given the above, paying cash and keeping the car for 8 years, or longer
I get a lot of savings in avoiding expensive servicing of ICE and expensive petrol (I pay 5c / 1kwh overnight so fully charging the “tank“ is $5 vs $150 in my GTS, and mind you the range on the full tank is the same !!!!)

 

[grim]

I don’t care about depreciation given the above, paying cash and keeping the car for 8 years, or longer

Everyone does what they want. Your money, be happy. This is the best explanation Ive read on why Taycan prices have fallen off a cliff. He got a point. Many times Ive read the “iphone” on wheels comments. That does not bode well for long term ownership. Who is going to upgrade the sw on a 5 year old car nm 8 years old?

What does Apple do with old sw? They dont update it. Is Porsche going to keep a team of programmers around to fix these old cars?

 

[yrralis1]

I knew it was bad but not this bad, so I looked it up on BB lite. Its shocking 🤯 Stripped MY20 Turbo S MSRP at $185 now worth $85 at trade. Not one year but 3 years

Why would anyone take that bath? Why did it fall off a cliff?

I told my wife that I was really bummed out today. I told her that I’ve been reading this forum and it was EV and EV that and I feel like it’s slipping through my fingers. She listened. I went on to say that some people are just running blind into the fire because I think they want to prove something to themselves .

She met me back in 2005. This is the first time in all those years. Did I ever said anything worrisome about Porsche to her.

Remember the launch back in 2014 ? Things like PDK made it to a turbo engine had already been proven, and this was going into the first SUV by Porsche. We felt like pioneers this is different. It’s very different.