[TigerMac]

You are only fooling yourself when looking at non-inflation adjusted prices.

Electricity 1978 $0.05c/kWh ($0.20c/kWh in today's currency) and 2022 $0.16c/kWh (20% decrease)
Gasoline 1978 $0.67c/kWh ($4.03/gallon in today's currency) and 2022 $4.09/gallon (1.5% increase)

Gas price inflation, 1970→2025

This calculator uses the official Consumer Price Index for Gas from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Gas costing $3.29 in 1970 would cost $33.07 in 2025.

www.officialdata.org

Electricity price inflation, 1970→2025

This calculator uses the official Consumer Price Index for Electricity from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Electricity costing $100 in 1970 would cost $914.49 in 2025.

www.in2013dollars.com

Even at the higher $0.18c/kWh that's $4.71 to travel 100 miles/26.2kWh in a Model Y. Take a Macan at 19.4MPG and that's $20.6 of gas.

Interesting points about inflation-adjusted energy prices, even though when comparing actual consumption values between a Macan 4 EV and a Macan T (proven in some above linked driving test for the new EV and self experienced ones for the Macan T) the relation is as follows:

Macan 4 EV 100KWh gross charge (yields 95KWh drivable net capacity) yield 320mi or 520Km (@battery almost empty, showing 1% reserve) which costs you $5.63 for 100mi.
(Electricity in Germany is more than double as expensive, 38c/KWh at home and once again another factor 2 on average using public charging, so assuming 50% charging at home and 50% publicly make some 57c/KWh resulting in $17.8 for 100mi.)

Now my Macan T consumed about 9.8L/100Km on average here in Germany which is 2.59gal/62.5mi or 24.1MPG or $16.6 for 100mi from your above calc.
(Again, in Germany @1.78€/L resulting in $29.3 per 100mi., which is a factor of 1.65 more expensive than the EV, but the lower price for the ICE bought you some 59,000mi for free here in Germany - similar equipped cars - probably even more in the US)

 

[ericsan13]

Interesting points about inflation-adjusted energy prices, even though when comparing actual consumption values between a Macan 4 EV and a Macan T (proven in some above linked driving test for the new EV and self experienced ones for the Macan T) the relation is as follows:

Macan 4 EV 100KWh gross charge (yields 95KWh drivable net capacity) yield 320mi or 520Km (@battery almost empty, showing 1% reserve) which costs you $5.63 for 100mi.
(Electricity in Germany is more than double as expensive, 38c/KWh at home and once again another factor 2 on average using public charging, so assuming 50% charging at home and 50% publicly make some 57c/KWh resulting in $17.8 for 100mi.)

Now my Macan T consumed about 9.8L/100Km on average here in Germany which is 2.59gal/62.5mi or 24.1MPG or $16.6 for 100mi from your above calc.
(Again, in Germany @1.78€/L resulting in $29.3 per 100mi., which is a factor of 1.65 more expensive than the EV, but the lower price for the ICE bought you some 59,000mi for free here in Germany - similar equipped cars - probably even more in the US)

I hear you and my rant in another thread is that the Macan EV is overpriced against ICE Macan and other EV SUVs. So I agree and I can only guess that it either doesn't matter for their target customer (the Chinese market), or they believe the faster acceleration justifies the higher price-point.

Another thing to note is that we're only looking at the cost of gas/energy. The true price difference would be less substantial once you factor things like standard features and maintenance & repair cost (average Porsche is $1,192/yr). EVs have way, way lower M&R costs. Just like hybrids, they make more features standard and the break-even point depends on how often you drive.

 

[M GTS]

The world’s top carmaker got mocked for rejecting EV hype—not anymore. ‘I want to congratulate Toyota’ — FORTUNE

Toyota shared a stellar outlook this week thanks to higher sales of hybrid vehicles across all its major markets.

apple.news

 

[TigerMac]

The world’s top carmaker got mocked for rejecting EV hype—not anymore. ‘I want to congratulate Toyota’ — FORTUNE

Toyota shared a stellar outlook this week thanks to higher sales of hybrid vehicles across all its major markets.

apple.news

Maybe true from a commercial and also social (like acclimatisation with an EV, tax advantages) point of view, but hybrids are the "worst from both worlds" from my engineering perspective. Double risk of failure and wear out...maybe a 48V mild hybrid could make sense, but only when it replaces alternator and starter and adds additional peak power for overtaking ...think Stellantis goes for this...

 

[M GTS]

Mr Bean has always been a smart man lol….
The man of the cloth also showing the savings are drying up !

EV owners reveal why they are pulling the plug on their green machines — Daily Mail Australia

EXCLUSIVE: EV drivers fumed how their electric vehicles have dropped in value, charging costs have soared and incentives have been scrapped.

apple.news

 

[grim]

This is some serious fearmongering based on a single utility. PG&E is a for-profit and supposedly rotten through the core.

Yes, I get the inflation thing but that's not the point. The point is 72% of the nation is served by "for profits" They are regulated in that the cost of electricity is bound but not the capital costs. They are regulated because "monopolies bad" but a 10% ROI might be typical. Since they need to invest in infrastructure if 280M cars are to be EVs, you can take this to the bank, the for profit companies will increase rates like never seen before. I would never count on the price of electric being the same as today. They need a massive investment in infrastructure and THAT is where the utility companies make money, not in the generations of electric.

Where I live the ultities are underground. But two streets away, they are above ground. The cost to move all utilities underground is most likely fiscally impossible. So a tree falls on a pole two streets away? Power is out. Its all about the capital costs and that is where they make money. So upgrade houses requires trenching. Big money.

 

[grim]

Here's an idea. Set your L2 charger to charge from 12AM to 5AM, during off-peak hours (which is good for your wallet and utility power generation). Then you are not using the dryer/hot water/furnace at the same time. 5 hours is enough time to charge a Model Y LR from 20% to 80% (+198 miles). Also some houses have gas and 100A service. It's possible to make it work even if you drive 200mi/day.

I have 200A service and a gas furnace/water heater for example. Lucky me, I know.

200A with gas everything is living easy.

So what you describe, aint how it works. All around this part of the US uses, AFAIK, heat pumps. If you are used to Forced Hot Air (FHA) you are in for a surprise. Heat Pumps suck. Thats the only way to describe them. Normally, you expect when its cold outside that the air out of the vents is at least warm. Not for a heat pump. Its about 1 or 2 degrees above ambient. And since its moving, it can feel cold. If you come from Oil heat or something like that. Its a shock.

When the weather is in the 30 - 50F range, its fine and probably the most efficient thing, hence why houses in these zones have them. Normal temps are like 45 high, 25 at night this time of year, so its not "to bad". But every year there are cold spells, like early January. Every year the polar vortex thing happens, they always come back. When the temp is below 20, heat pumps don't work. So it turns on the giant toaster on a 50 amp circuit. When the giant toaster goes on, the electric bill skyrockets. OTOH, the Heat Pump is at 30 amps.

But you see the theory is, the giant toaster only goes on rarely. Thats BS. It goes on all the time below 20 and other times when the heat pump can't keep up, or when its defrosting. When the temp goes to single digits and teens, forget about it. We get days when it never gets above freezing, that the toaster runs about constantly.

When does it get really cold? In the middle of the night? When do you want to charge your car? In the middle of the night. Car chargers must have a 25% reserve, so its a 64 AMP circuit to pull 48 Amps. That still doesn't use up 100 AMPs. Hot water heaters do their thing on/off when it feels like it. I don't think there is a reserve factor because its not continuous. Hot water kicks in because its cold in the basement, that's 30 amps more.

I guess you aint cooking or using the dryer so lets forget that. Now plug anything else in and its all adds up. 100 AMPs is not sufficient.

I have read there are devices that monitor full output and shut off the car charger but that's just a kluge. The real answer is an upgrade. That cost $$$ and the utilities are way, behind, a year or more behind plus supply chain issues they admit to.

IOW, when you need it the most, when its coldest, when when all the heat elements are running, and at the same time when you want to charge. And the houses were never meant to have such a large additional load.

 

[rickrobillard1]

Anyone who does not want an EV will easily find 1000 reasons not to get one. Those who like EVs will ignore those reasons and get one and most never regret it. Very few of our decisions are made based on facts and figures but on our emotions (and we look for supporting facts to justify the decision we already made). I've had a Jag I-Pace for almost 5 years (first model year). Most fun car to drive I've ever had. Clear that EVs are the future but it is clear that there are a lot of issue to iron out, but none of them are particularly hard to solve, we just have to get around to solving them. Had ALL the issues the I-Pace has ever had (including the battery recall). Despite the issues, I miss the EV every time I travel and get an ICE rental car (or drive the dealer loaner during the many extended repair times for the I-Pace).

Regarding facts and figures. Hertz recently announced it is selling 20,000 of its EVs because of higher than expected maintenance costs and lower than expected customer demand. According to a recent study by iseecars.com EVs depreciate faster than any other vehicle segment. You can expect depreciation of 49.1% in 5 years. So they cost more and depreciate faster than ICE vehicles. Ford announced it’s cutting F150 lightening production by 50% due to lack of customer demand. According to the WSJ 12/03/2023, on average EV owners pay $357 a month for car insurance compared to $248 for comparable ICE vehicle. The same article says a ICE crash that cost $4300 to repair would cost $6500 to repair If it were an EV. Goodyear says tires can wear 50% faster on EVs. Michelin says 20% faster. According to a study by Consumer Reports EVs at 79% LESS Reliable than ICE vehicles.

All of the above facts and figures are easily found with a google search.

None of these facts means a person should or should not by an EV but if a person chooses to buy the data suggests you should expect reliability problems, high insurance premium, significant depreciation, and excessive tire wear.

While it’s nice to know your personal experience with EVs, do you have and facts or figures to bring to the discussion that would help a prospectI’ve EV Macan buyer? Personally I take some comfort in Porsche’s history of reliability and resale value. If a person wants to buy a EV would the Porsche brand mitigate some of the EV negatives?

 

[AVM]

. . . . If a person wants to buy a EV would the Porsche brand mitigate some of the EV negatives?

No

 

[grim]

Gotta get to …. and you see this 🤬

 

[ericsan13]

Yes, I get the inflation thing but that's not the point. The point is 72% of the nation is served by "for profits" They are regulated in that the cost of electricity is bound but not the capital costs. They are regulated because "monopolies bad" but a 10% ROI might be typical. Since they need to invest in infrastructure if 280M cars are to be EVs, you can take this to the bank, the for profit companies will increase rates like never seen before. I would never count on the price of electric being the same as today. They need a massive investment in infrastructure and THAT is where the utility companies make money, not in the generations of electric.

Where I live the ultities are underground. But two streets away, they are above ground. The cost to move all utilities underground is most likely fiscally impossible. So a tree falls on a pole two streets away? Power is out. Its all about the capital costs and that is where they make money. So upgrade houses requires trenching. Big money.

The point is that regardless of whether or not they are for-profit, this is an extreme case of pricing, especially when shown against your post of national averages by region. The highest region was 18c/kWh but if you dig deeper, PG&E is at 62c/kWh (3.4x the highest region). It's like looking at the top 1% of a bell curve and saying, hey that's your future. Just look at their neighbor SVP with the same rate of EV adoption at 16c/kWh and you will see clearly it is not.

Plus even at 62c/kWh I showed that energy is still cheaper than gas.

 

[ericsan13]

200A with gas everything is living easy.

So what you describe, aint how it works. All around this part of the US uses, AFAIK, heat pumps. If you are used to Forced Hot Air (FHA) you are in for a surprise. Heat Pumps suck. Thats the only way to describe them. Normally, you expect when its cold outside that the air out of the vents is at least warm. Not for a heat pump. Its about 1 or 2 degrees above ambient. And since its moving, it can feel cold. If you come from Oil heat or something like that. Its a shock.

When the weather is in the 30 - 50F range, its fine and probably the most efficient thing, hence why houses in these zones have them. Normal temps are like 45 high, 25 at night this time of year, so its not "to bad". But every year there are cold spells, like early January. Every year the polar vortex thing happens, they always come back. When the temp is below 20, heat pumps don't work. So it turns on the giant toaster on a 50 amp circuit. When the giant toaster goes on, the electric bill skyrockets. OTOH, the Heat Pump is at 30 amps.

But you see the theory is, the giant toaster only goes on rarely. Thats BS. It goes on all the time below 20 and other times when the heat pump can't keep up, or when its defrosting. When the temp goes to single digits and teens, forget about it. We get days when it never gets above freezing, that the toaster runs about constantly.

When does it get really cold? In the middle of the night? When do you want to charge your car? In the middle of the night. Car chargers must have a 25% reserve, so its a 64 AMP circuit to pull 48 Amps. That still doesn't use up 100 AMPs. Hot water heaters do their thing on/off when it feels like it. I don't think there is a reserve factor because its not continuous. Hot water kicks in because its cold in the basement, that's 30 amps more.

I guess you aint cooking or using the dryer so lets forget that. Now plug anything else in and its all adds up. 100 AMPs is not sufficient.

I have read there are devices that monitor full output and shut off the car charger but that's just a kluge. The real answer is an upgrade. That cost $$$ and the utilities are way, behind, a year or more behind plus supply chain issues they admit to.

IOW, when you need it the most, when its coldest, when when all the heat elements are running, and at the same time when you want to charge. And the houses were never meant to have such a large additional load.

That's fine, just adjust the L2 charger to adapt to your scenario. You don't have to use 48A. You can set the charger to 40A, 32A, 24A, 20A, etc. You can even use a normal plug for L1 charging to gain 5 miles of range per hour. For me, I have found the L2 charger to simply be a convenience. I use the L1 charger 90%+ of the time.

It's up to everyone to examine their own driving behavior and power consumption behavior. Do you really drive 200 miles a day that would require 4 hours of daily charging at 48A? That's 73,000 miles a year. You can find ways to make it work or not work (like cooking using all stovetops, while specifically drying your clothes, running your what-if-i-have-one heat pump, while taking a shower at 3am when you want to charge after your exhausting 200mi/day daily commute).

Also it's a 60A breaker (25% safety margin) to run a 48A L2 charger, not 64A. You are not using 60A, the breaker is there for safety.

 

[ericsan13]

Maybe true from a commercial and also social (like acclimatisation with an EV, tax advantages) point of view, but hybrids are the "worst from both worlds" from my engineering perspective. Double risk of failure and wear out...maybe a 48V mild hybrid could make sense, but only when it replaces alternator and starter and adds additional peak power for overtaking ...think Stellantis goes for this...

All those taxis and ubers still driving their old priuses would disagree with you.

But more seriously Toyota hybrids are unique in that they use a DC-DC converter to maintain the 12V (not an alternator) and a electric motor-generator to start the engine. Not sure what other companies do but Toyota (and others) have been doubling-down on hybrids.

Then there's things like electronics not stuttering when car starts, no shifting/gearbox (for toyotas), brakes last 2.5x longer, etc.

https://www.engadget.com/consumer-reports-hybrid-reliability-ev-phev-170003341.html

 

[ScubaEsteban]

Ultimately, consumers will dictate the market, not legislators. . . the consumer is already speaking and the volume will continue to be turned up . . . hard pass on EVs

AVM

Yet the market for new EVs... With the latest and greatest is booking and expanding.

 

[AVM]

That's what [they] want you to believe . . . I would like to say you will figure it out but, given you have not to this point without doing so, seems highly unlikely

AVM

 

[TigerMac]

All those taxis and ubers still driving their old priuses would disagree with you.

But more seriously Toyota hybrids are unique in that they use a DC-DC converter to maintain the 12V (not an alternator) and a electric motor-generator to start the engine. Not sure what other companies do but Toyota (and others) have been doubling-down on hybrids.

Then there's things like electronics not stuttering when car starts, no shifting/gearbox (for toyotas), brakes last 2.5x longer, etc.

https://www.engadget.com/consumer-reports-hybrid-reliability-ev-phev-170003341.html

OK, understood, but I don't want to drive a taxi-driver preferred car, like a Prius. 12 years ago, I was astonished how seldom its electric drive was active (Ok, in Finland @-25°C, but long-time parking in heated garage before).
I prefer performance oriented power units.
Before selecting an ICE-only powered Macan, I also checked out a new BMW X1 2.0L hybrid. Sorry, but I found the hybrid to be awfully integrated. At least 1s felt reaction time from kick-down to significant acceleration, also no sport response button to prime overtaking...leave such gladly for taxi drivers...

 

[ericsan13]

OK, understood, but I don't want to drive a taxi-driver preferred car, like a Prius. 12 years ago, I was astonished how seldom its electric drive was active (Ok, in Finland @-25°C, but long-time parking in heated garage before).
I prefer performance oriented power units.
Before selecting an ICE-only powered Macan, I also checked out a new BMW X1 2.0L hybrid. Sorry, but I found the hybrid to be awfully integrated. At least 1s felt reaction time from kick-down to significant acceleration, also no sport response button to prime overtaking...leave such gladly for taxi drivers...

I prefer performance oriented power units too.

There are many other Toyota hybrids outside of Prius. Basically every model they have offers some sort of hybrid based off the same architecture. On the performance side they have the LC hybrid. Lexus is not very powerful in general but it's up at the top with Porsche in terms of reliability.

The issue with hybrids is that there are so many formats and you have to dig a bit deeper to understand if it's good or not. It's not like an EV where you have 1, 2, 3 or 4 electric motors.

Edit: BTW, check out the new Prius. I wouldn't mind being taxied around in that.

 

[Jkirkerx]

The part where you said they don’t want you to own anything and take the bus is where all of this is heading. Public transport will change as well. It’ll be somewhat of a combination between public transport and Uber . Its where an actual self driving vehicle is the entity that does all the driving. A person can choose a plan based upon the type of vehicle he wants to ride in. As far as driving goes, they’ll make it a hobby for people who want to go to the track. I don’t know what types of cars they will allow on the track at that point. It will take decades to get there, and I probably won’t be around to see it because I’m too old.

The only has a small faction of climate activist zealots in the USA. The majority who claim they are are really just faking it. They don’t really care about pollution, but they want to give the image that they are doing their part to make the world a better place so that everyone gives them a giant hug. It’s all a ploy to gain acceptance . It’s a social image thing for them, which is huge in the USA.

I don’t think electric cars are bad to offer. I don’t even feel that it’s a bad thing to have for a little trip around town and the person who has charging at his house convenient. However, that is very different than pulling the shelf of everything else. I am amazed that they may come appoint in time where I stand beside a V8 pick up truck guy in agreement on something. Despite our differences in our driving choices, there is that one common thread that we love our choices.

@grim
I read a article on Paris earlier this week charging a tax or fine of $18 for SUV cars, and that SUV cars where consuming too much space on the street in marked parking places, where the width of the SUV exceeds the space and overflows into the street, making the street more narrow for cars to pass, and they also banned Electric Scooters as well. They took it to a vote, and it passed. To me, it sounded like only the very rich can afford these SUV cars, whether it's gas, diesel or electric, it's just negative sentiment towards the nuisance of SUV cars, the price point of SUV cars, and who can afford them. IMO, it's like the rich can afford gasoline in Europe, while the middle class chooses Diesel, and a small segment of Europe is buying EV cars. The residential streets in Paris seem very narrow, so I get that, and I would be upset as well.

@yrralis1
In California, if you go back and read up on the CARB agenda going back to 1990, they have been planning new cities to be more like New York, where each neighborhood has a store, cleaners, whatever service you need all sort of self contained so you can walk or ride a bike, and not own a car at all. So CARB, had 2 agendas, first being to reduce pollution levels on cars, then next phasing out cars. The latter backfired on CARB, so EV cars seems to be the intermediate step before phasing out cars, or making cars so expensive, that the poor would not be able to afford them, and perhaps choose to live in one of these new planned cities or area within a city.

@Jkirkerx
Personally, I'm getting older now, near @yrralis1 age and I don't really care anymore about these agendas. The CEO of Stellantis stated this week that in order to replace the entire world fleet of cars to EV, you would have to rip the planet apart to find all the raw materials needed; like rare earth minerals, to build that many EV cars. So I don't think EV cars will meet the goals established by climate activist anytime soon. I see on YouTube, EV cars in China just blowing up, sending the car 50 feet in the air, so I'm not parking near EV chargers anymore as well. I came close to buying the Ford Mach E, but it skyrocketed in price and I didn't think it was worth it. I wouldn't mind having one to drive to work, but it has to be cost effective for me. The cost of home Solar Panels, Battery to store energy; and electric car is now $120K for me, and that's still large amount for me to consider towards helping the planet.

In the US, most people have one car, and just drive locally, so an EV car seems fine. But it's when you take that road trip across vast deserts when super hot or cold, forests, 6K foot tall mountains covered in snow, that EV cars are limited. My Macan is my 2nd car, and I bought it for road trips, over driving my little Ford Focus long distances.

 

[grim]

@grim
I read a article on Paris earlier this week charging a tax or fine of $18 for SUV cars, and that SUV cars where consuming too much space on the street in marked parking places, where the width of the SUV exceeds the space and overflows into the street, making the street more narrow for cars to pass, and they also banned Electric Scooters as well. They took it to a vote, and it passed. To me, it sounded like only the very rich can afford these SUV cars, whether it's gas, diesel or electric, it's just negative sentiment towards the nuisance of SUV cars, the price point of SUV cars, and who can afford them. IMO, it's like the rich can afford gasoline in Europe, while the middle class chooses Diesel, and a small segment of Europe is buying EV cars. The residential streets in Paris seem very narrow, so I get that, and I would be upset as well.

We discussed the Fees Paris is now charging for SUVs, EVs included, earlier in this thread. I had read it was west Paris vs East Paris vote along Rich vs Poor lines. But I think one of our members here, @TigerMac? clarified it had nothing to do with money but more a referendum on the Mayor, that is, those opposed or for the Mayor simply because the Draconian parking fees did not effect the residents. It was all about Visitors ... and the Olympics is coming and I can imagine that nightmare for parking.

 

[Jkirkerx]

We discussed the Fees Paris is now charging for SUVs, EVs included, earlier in this thread. I had read it was west Paris vs East Paris vote along Rich vs Poor lines. But I think one of our members here, @TigerMac? clarified it had nothing to do with money but more a referendum on the Mayor, that is, those opposed or for the Mayor simply because the Draconian parking fees did not effect the residents. It was all about Visitors ... and the Olympics is coming and I can imagine that nightmare for parking.

I didn't read all the posts like I should of, my bad.
It's hard to keep up with Paris over the decades, or France in general. I didn't know the Olympics were in Paris this year, for I study other subjects like financials which consumes my time and thought, and Paris came up this week while studying Tesla and EV cars in general. Was trying to decide if I should hold Tesla or buy more, and if the negative sentiment towards EV cars would soon be forgotten, in which I would buy more shares at the $160 level. Different subject/aspect but they seemed to have crossed paths. Funny how the SUV has been a target of controversy since Rush Limbaugh pointed it out in the early 90s, and now almost everybody wants one in one form or another.

NYC just installed lots of high tech license plate scanners over the streets entering the congestion zone, coming and going to charge a fee or toll. But they don't care what you drive at least.