[Footie]

View attachment 280782

I can only assume that your home need to convert to 3 phase to add a home charger because the 110v system isn’t enough to run a 7Kw/H charger which the domestic homes in Europe and the UK use which is why the price for adding a home charger is so great.

For us the cost of the chargers are less than £500 and because the electrical supply is already there a further £200 top to get it installed.

Total bummer the US went the 110v supply route all those years ago but I suppose no one envisaged EVs or home charging.

 

[grim]

I fully realise just how massive USA is....

The part where you said they don’t want you to own anything and take the bus is where all of this is heading.

Both of these comments are tied together. I fully believe most European just are clueless about size. Since EV range keeps coming up, this is entirely relevant.

My grandparents lived in the big city. They did not need a car. You could walk to the Butcher, Baker (yes a real baker), no candlestick maker but fish market, and general grocery store. You bought food for the day, like I'm sure part of Europe used to do. The elderly might take one grocery bag store home from walking maybe 1/4 mile. In the bag was a quart of milk, today's bread, maybe a bit of meat, cheese, veggies, and fruit. And that was it. Everything was close.

The only thing I knew about how big the country was, was for movies, books, or TV. There is NOTHING a movie can show that represent the awe of exactly how big the country is. When I finally drove around the country the first time, I was awestruck. There is NOTHING anyone can say to explain how vast it is.

The Great Salt Desert was just a sea of white. Northern Nevada was hundreds of miles of desert and tumbleweed and a rare car coming the opposite direction. I got lost on Forest Roads in Washington state and British Columbia is nothing but trees, really BIG trees, forests of trees. The country is MASSIVE. Yes I know BC is CA

Which brings us to TAAS, or MAAS, Transportation as a Service. From time to time TAAS pops up. IMO its mostly from city dwellers who have no clue of the reality. In the suburbs, not city, I got about 16 miles round trip to the grocery store, 10 to dept stores. Nobody is walking anywhere. And I am NOT going to rent a car and have someone else own it. It goes fundamentally against human nature. Who wants to be in someone else's car?

You all know what happens in rental cars? Who threw up in them? Who *** whatever in them? And public transportation? Last time I was in a train was decades ago and it was FOUL, and I mean FOUL. 🥵 Stinking , and everything associated with it. Stay away from the edge because someone can toss you on the third rail and it happens all the time. 50 years ago it was bad. I can't even imagine today.

Porsche tried this

Porsche subscription model is working and it’s attracting younger drivers, exec says

Amid a U.S. auto market that is struggling, Porsche continues to grow with new products and services, including its subscription service that attracts a younger crowd.

www.cnbc.com

I've heard nothing about it since. Has it failed? No clue. If it was rousing success, it would be all over the news. It isn't. So I assume few to no one uses it.

 

[grim]

is this true for America and your electricians are converting your homes to 3 phase?

I wouldn't hold my breath. I have no definitive proof but suspect the real reason Europe is 3 phase and the US 1 phase is how fast the US progressed having early electric from Edison. The system was built out. Meanwhile Europe was gutted from WWII. IOW, there was no reason to change anything in the USA while Europe had to be rebuilt and could do anything they wanted.

Its like today, the POTS, that is, plain old Telephone service is gradually, years, being replaced with VOIP and then cell phones. Yet people still have POTS in their house. I know I have POTS wires all through the house. Its not like they just disappear. Meanwhile a third world country who has no phones could jump directly to 5G and just skip all the intermediate steps.

There is a cost for early adoption It has nothing to do with electric vehicle but the SIZING of the service to the house most definitely does. Nobody ever thought you'd need an extra 20 AMP to run a microwave? Whats a Microwave Oven?😲And nobody thought you'd need ANOTHER 64 amps to run an EV Charger? WTH is an EV? 64 AMPS is MORE than entire houses had in the 50s.

Times change, new stuff is invented ... and to change what exists is a MASSIVE cost.

 

[Footie]

I wouldn't hold my breath. I have no definitive proof but suspect the real reason Europe is 3 phase and the US 1 phase is how fast the US progressed having early electric from Edison. The system was built out. Meanwhile Europe was gutted from WWII. IOW, there was no reason to change anything in the USA while Europe had to be rebuilt and could do anything they wanted.

Its like today, the POTS, that is, plain old Telephone service is gradually, years, being replaced with VOIP and then cell phones. Yet people still have POTS in their house. I know I have POTS wires all through the house. Its not like they just disappear. Meanwhile a third world country who has no phones could jump directly to 5G and just skip all the intermediate steps.

There is a cost for early adoption It has nothing to do with electric vehicle but the SIZING of the service to the house most definitely does. Nobody ever thought you'd need an extra 20 AMP to run a microwave? Whats a Microwave Oven?😲And nobody thought you'd need ANOTHER 64 amps to run an EV Charger? WTH is an EV? 64 AMPS is MORE than entire houses had in the 50s.

Times change, new stuff is invented ... and to change what exists is a MASSIVE cost.

The UK isn’t 3 phase, at least not that average domestic home, businesses including my own are mostly 3 phase.

 

[Footie]

My father, mother and two older siblings did emigrate to the States in the early sixties and I remember him telling me their road trip journey from NewYork to San Diego so yep he said it was vast.

Alas it was just after Kennedy had been shot so jobs were thin on the ground and ended up returning home.

BWT come to my store and you’ll get both a proper baker and butcher. 😉

 

[TigerMac]

3-phase supply is a key element for domestic EV use. It allows for a full charge overnight. Almost all houses in Germany have a 3-phase supply and are able to charge EVs in principle with 11KW (just proved my new garage installation by charging my brother's Taycan overnight with 70KWh, w/o lighting up our house.)
But there is another issue which will endanger a vast move over to EVs here, this is the distribution and local networks, i .e. the medium voltage 10-20KV and 230V tiers, which are simply too weak in Germany. One can see this by the already installed PV (photo-voltaic) capacity which is output-limited by over-voltages in the local networks. Instead of 230V I have seen almost 250V during cool and sunny weather. Fortunately the regional electricity operator did install powerful underground capacity locally (originally not to support EV charging, but biogas plant based electricity). Other EU countries are set up much better, especially those like France or Finland who did dimension their regional and local networks to support electrical heating, which now enables enough charging capacity by upgrading from simple electrical to heat pump based heating, which frees a lot of power for EV charging.

 

[Footie]

3-phase supply is a key element for domestic EV use. It allows for a full charge overnight. Almost all houses in Germany have a 3-phase supply and are able to charge EVs in principle with 11KW (just proved my new garage installation by charging my brother's Taycan overnight with 70KWh, w/o lighting up our house.)
But there is another issue which will endanger a vast move over to EVs here, this is the distribution and local networks, i .e. the medium voltage 10-20KV and 230V tiers, which are simply too weak in Germany. One can see this by the already installed PV (photo-voltaic) capacity which is output-limited by over-voltages in the local networks. Instead of 230V I have seen almost 250V during cool and sunny weather. Fortunately the regional electricity operator did install powerful underground capacity locally (originally not to support EV charging, but biogas plant based electricity). Other EU countries are set up much better, especially those like France or Finland who did dimension their regional and local networks to support electrical heating, which now enables enough charging capacity by upgrading from simple electrical to heat pump based heating, which frees a lot of power for EV charging.

You are 100% correct it’s the supply network which is the limiting factor no matter where you live. Some countries are ahead of others where their infrastructure coverage more sorted and I do think it’s these countries where sales of EVs will be greatest.

Two factors limit people looking at an EV, concerns about range and charging, when both are addressed more people will switch for sure and Norway is the perfect example of this and this despite Norway having very cold winters with a fair bit of snow.

 

[grim]

Here is a good explanation between EU and US power. Its a reasonable answer, money. Edison and the US system was built out. EU standard is cheaper, less copper, thinner wires. Its also correct in the US these things run on 240V

• Heat pumps
• electric furnances
• electric hot water heaters
• electric clothes dryers
• electric ranges, that is, ovens

everything else is 120V, for a residential house.

https://www.german-way.com/why-is-there-230-volt-power-in-europe-and-120-volts-in-north-america/

Now to add another 240V device can easily be beyond the 60 or 100 amp service.

 

[yrralis1]

Here is a good explanation between EU and US power. Its a reasonable answer, money. Edison and the US system was built out. EU standard is cheaper, less copper, thinner wires. Its also correct in the US these things run on 240V

• Heat pumps
• electric furnances
• electric hot water heaters
• electric clothes dryers
• electric ranges, that is, ovens

everything else is 120V, for a residential house.

https://www.german-way.com/why-is-there-230-volt-power-in-europe-and-120-volts-in-north-america/

Now to add another 240V device can easily be beyond the 60 or 100 amp service.

My house is all electric but the snag is that my garage outlet is used to charge a 911. I become excited to problem solve things when I am driven to have it work but become revolted by having it dumped on me . The idea of being faced with. a brain teaser about an EV makes me want to puke .

 

[Footie]

Here is a good explanation between EU and US power. Its a reasonable answer, money. Edison and the US system was built out. EU standard is cheaper, less copper, thinner wires. Its also correct in the US these things run on 240V

• Heat pumps
• electric furnances
• electric hot water heaters
• electric clothes dryers
• electric ranges, that is, ovens

everything else is 120V, for a residential house.

https://www.german-way.com/why-is-there-230-volt-power-in-europe-and-120-volts-in-north-america/

Now to add another 240V device can easily be beyond the 60 or 100 amp service.

So let me understand this, every home in the US has 240v but it’s split with one part doing the 240v duties and the other 110-120v doing the other?

Then why can’t you simply working off the 240v side to connect the regular 7Kw/H charger that’s only £500 here?

I’m no electrician so I must be missing something.

 

[grim]

My house is all electric but the snag is that my garage outlet is used to charge a 911. I become excited to problem solve things when I am driven to have it work but become revolted by having it dumped on me . The idea of being faced with. a brain teaser about an EV makes me want to puke .

yeah but you aint using 240V to have the 911 on a CTEK, even with a lithium battery. Whether its the 997 or 992, with our without lithium, a CTEK or equivalent is pulling 1.1 Amps max. You probably have a standard 120V, 15 amp circuit that is the standard all over the US. You could add a lot of other things on that circuit. But what its NOT is sufficient for an EV. You'd need to have another circuit pulled from your main panel, or a sub panel installed, and typically to ensure future proofing it, that's 64 Amp. An EV charger is considered to be running a full capacity more than three hours so they have to leave some slack in the amount of AMPs it can pull.

IOW, its going to cost you some money. How much depends upon how far away it is from your main electric panel, the rate electricians charge your way, cost of permits and inspection, and then the cost of the hardware, which is the cheapest part. Its the labor, permit, and additional costs that cost $$$, not the hardware. Copper aint cheap. They steal copper all the time now.

But I get your point. I tried calling my local company and they were clueless as to the amp service. "Call an electrician"

 

[grim]

So let me understand this, every home in the US has 240v but it’s split with one part doing the 240v duties and the other 110-120v doing the other?

Then why can’t you simply working off the 240v side to connect the regular 7Kw/H charger that’s only £500 here?

I’m no electrician so I must be missing something.

Sound right but we have gone over this already in this thread. Every house has a wire, "bandwidth" going into it, whether its an apartment, townshouse, condo, or single Family House. That "wire" is "so" thick. It can carry a maximum number of amps at ONE time. Prior to WWII that standard was 30 AMPs. Post WWII it was 60 AMPs. From the 60s it was 100 AMPs. After Early - Mid 80s it was 200 AMPS.

100 Amps, today is not much. Just think about this.

You got the dryer on? 30 Amps max
Hot water doing its thing? 30 Amps
Its cold out, the electric house toaster is on (furnace) 60 Amps.
You want to cook at the same time on that Electric range? That could be 50 AMP if everything is on. Less ifs one burner is on and say the oven.

See the point? Guess what, you are OVER the 100 AMP maximum. Of course, that Furnace might not be using all its "banks" at one time, or the hot water heater might not be doing anything Put on the Microwave? Oops. They bet on you NOT using all those things at once. That was a good bet in 1980. Today?

See? Now you want to add ANOTHER 64 Amp box? LOL

I have read they try to mitigate this in some way by monitoring what is going on in ALL the circuits and just cut off the EV charger if the 100 AMPS is near capacity. But that is a Kluge. You can't live like that. Get the service upgrade and if you are smart, go to 400 AMPS. Don't be like the people who thought 200 AMPS was enough for ever. There could be a time you want FOUR cars all plugged in at once. Then what? That 200 amp service won't be enough. Think ahead and future proof.

Some houses come from overhead wires. But some houses have buried utilties. So to upgrade, they got to DIG UP the wires and replace them with thicker buried wires, trenching. Trenching cost $$$$. And you got to get in the queue, cause maybe they get to you in two years, if you are lucky, cause nobody wants to work anymore after the pandemic. And the utility company says there are "supply chain" issues. Go figure.

And THEN there is the distance from your electric panel to where you want the charger. If I did this it could be easy 60' from panel (that is after the trenching to replace the service) to where the sub panel or charger might go. Thats MORE copper and more labor

Get the point?

IOW, its all about "bandwidth" and nobody ever thought a microwave would exist, nm some EV charger.

Its also why I say the low hanging fruit has been picked. The early adopters probably had it easy, that is, enough power to begin and a short drop from panel to where the charger goes.

 

[yrralis1]

yeah but you aint using 240V to have the 911 on a CTEK, even with a lithium battery. Whether its the 997 or 992, with our without lithium, a CTEK or equivalent is pulling 1.1 Amps max. You probably have a standard 120V, 15 amp circuit that is the standard all over the US. You could add a lot of other things on that circuit. But what its NOT is sufficient for an EV. You'd need to have another circuit pulled from your main panel, or a sub panel installed, and typically to ensure future proofing it, that's 64 Amp. An EV charger is considered to be running a full capacity more than three hours so they have to leave some slack in the amount of AMPs it can pull.

IOW, its going to cost you some money. How much depends upon how far away it is from your main electric panel, the rate electricians charge your way, cost of permits and inspection, and then the cost of the hardware, which is the cheapest part. Its the labor, permit, and additional costs that cost $$$, not the hardware. Copper aint cheap. They steal copper all the time now.

But I get your point. I tried calling my local company and they were clueless as to the amp service. "Call an electrician"

I think the dealership suggests one. Most of them are awful (almost as bad as dentists ).

 

[Footie]

Sound right but we have gone over this already in this thread. Every house has a wire, "bandwidth" going into it, whether its an apartment, townshouse, condo, or single Family House. That "wire" is "so" thick. It can carry a maximum number of amps at ONE time. Prior to WWII that standard was 30 AMPs. Post WWII it was 60 AMPs. From the 60s it was 100 AMPs. After Early - Mid 80s it was 200 AMPS.

100 Amps, today is not much. Just think about this.

You got the dryer on? 30 Amps max
Hot water doing its thing? 30 Amps
Its cold out, the electric house toaster is on (furnace) 60 Amps.
You want to cook at the same time on that Electric range? That could be 50 AMP if everything is on. Less ifs one burner is on and say the oven.

See the point? Guess what, you are OVER the 100 AMP maximum. Of course, that Furnace might not be using all its "banks" at one time, or the hot water heater might not be doing anything Put on the Microwave? Oops. They bet on you NOT using all those things at once. That was a good bet in 1980. Today?

See? Now you want to add ANOTHER 64 Amp box? LOL

I have read they try to mitigate this in some way by monitoring what is going on in ALL the circuits and just cut off the EV charger if the 100 AMPS is near capacity. But that is a Kluge. You can't live like that. Get the service upgrade and if you are smart, go to 400 AMPS. Don't be like the people who thought 200 AMPS was enough for ever. There could be a time you want FOUR cars all plugged in at once. Then what? That 200 amp service won't be enough. Think ahead and future proof.

Some houses come from overhead wires. But some houses have buried utilties. So to upgrade, they got to DIG UP the wires and replace them with thicker buried wires, trenching. Trenching cost $$$$. And you got to get in the queue, cause maybe they get to you in two years, if you are lucky, cause nobody wants to work anymore after the pandemic. And the utility company says there are "supply chain" issues. Go figure.

And THEN there is the distance from your electric panel to where you want the charger. If I did this it could be easy 60' from panel (that is after the trenching to replace the service) to where the sub panel or charger might go. Thats MORE copper and more labor

Get the point?

IOW, its all about "bandwidth" and nobody ever thought a microwave would exist, nm some EV charger.

Its also why I say the low hanging fruit has been picked. The early adopters probably had it easy, that is, enough power to begin and a short drop from panel to where the charger goes.

I don’t disagree about the early adaptors, I think if you want an EV you will make it happen but I also agree it’s not suitable for everyone and not everyone will want it either which is just as well because the grid couldn’t cope. LOL

Tesla sold their idea to its potential customers that you would never need a home charger and their super charger station would be perfect and I am sure for a long time they were but roll on to 2023-24 and those cracks are forming and I’m betting those Tesla owners wished they had a home charger to fall back on, in fact had the majority had home chargers it would still be working brilliantly because it’s the sheer number of Tesla cars on the roads cause their issues and every EV owners worries in the US.

Here where home charging is most common you see these charging stations empty. I question how they are making money.

 

[grim]

And those who think electric rates aint going to cost as much as gas, its just a matter of time.

 

[Walsh96]

Tesla batteries seem to be consistently outlasting those estimates though, often by a large margin.

yeah but whose gonna be the sucker to pay the replacement cost of the whole undercarriage battery...when it goes decides to go bye bye...good luck, reselling your car with a battery thats either reached peak degradation, and they say it does around when it reaches 50-65 percent....otherwise they just adding to the problem of scrapyards being full of this EVs that nobody will touch because of that and the abysmal market for used EVs being horrid...its such a lose/lose situation with EVs... especially used expensive ones...

 

[yrralis1]

And those who think electric rates aint going to cost as much as gas, its just a matter of time.

Their infrastructure looks archaic . I haven't seen old wooden posts since 10 years ago . We are cement posts or under ground . My electric bill is double theirs . I have. pool pump running 8 hrs a day and summer heat/humidity Miami is the big league .

I will day this though .. FPL went from a worrisome mediocrity in the 90's to a home run hitter at present . When stuff goes bad they fix it quickly .

 

[yrralis1]

After @4ndy posted the article I dug a bit more .
Porsche CFO says Europe may delay its ICE ban

Looks like they are reading the forums !!! Or they are counting the expected orders that did NOT happen .

Brexit might just be the perfect loophole to save Porsche .

 

[yrralis1]

That article talks about fines for the companies based oil units . They can fight it in court . They can raise the price . Both are possible .
Before its too late .. this is the time to buy .

 

[Sly_North]

A 6% participation rate in the vote represents apathy. Nobody cares. This doesn't involve locals. It involves visitors. But look closer, there are the referendums about green spaces, eliminating cars in the city, and they mostly all won by 50 point landslides. Pay attention to that which was NOT reported.

Now lets look at who voted. The best I got was from reddit, with a map of the districts, red voted against, blue for the referendum. There is no easy Google translate on this, you have to translate the comments. West Paris vs East Paris, from the comments, the rich vs the poor. Since the fees don't involve the locals, I don't get it but whatever, that's the vote.

You're right that nobody cared about the vote: they're not affected, as long as their car is parked in their residential area, close to their home. Only visitors are.
The left/right Paris vote split was just a left/right politic border split. People mostly voted for or against the mayor, depending on their politic preference.

EDIT - one can compare the map of the pro/con-SUV votes to this map of the last mayor election: