[Mii]

You have nailed it. Not only have Porsche thrown the baby out with the bath water but (in Europe at least) they have actually killed the baby!

I do not think Porsche is a victim of the nefarious ‘legislation,’ I think they are complicit in it. . .

I firmly believe this is all about making money, and nothing else.

Great points summarized. What's baffling is that Porsche determined to take the tougher route ahead, induced less confidence from potential customers for next gen mode! There are examples of AAOS update on previous PCM hardware from Electronic Section of this forum. Note: Not affiliating with third party upgrade, just to point out it can be done with either software update or PCM upgrade if Porsche choose to remediate potential vulnerability. Leaving tens of thousands of previous Porsche models with vulnerable PCM OS/Software will potentially cause Porsche greater financial impact than fixing the old one!

If cybersecurity has to be baked-in as day-1 design, most likely it's affecting at the network communication level, at the worst, existing Porsche lineups (or Macan ICE) can turn off the cellular connection (manually configuration or via software patch), only allow critical firmware/software update at the Authorized Service Department. Remote attacker won't be able to penetrate without the network connectivity in the first place. Supposedly ICE models can operate and transport without cellular connection!

@grim shared UNECE R155 article, an interesting read on Cybersecurity Management System (CSMS):

1. Physical access control — address threats related to unauthorized physical access to vehicle components (e.g., tampering, theft intrusion).
2. Network security — involve threats to the vehicle's internal and external communication networks (e.g., hacking, malware, interception).
3. Software security — identify risks associated with the software running on the vehicle, including its operating system and applications (e.g., exploits, injection, unauthorized access).
4. Data privacy and protection — pertain to threats targeting the confidentiality and integrity of data collected and processed by the vehicle (e.g., breach, tampering, unauthorized access).
5. Operational security — detail threats that impact the vehicle's operational functionality and safety systems come into play (e.g., manipulation, disruption, interference).
6. Remote access control — highlight risks associated with remote access to the vehicle’s systems, often through wireless connections (e.g., hijacking, exploitation, unauthorized access).
7. Supply chain security — cover threats originating from vulnerabilities within the supply chain, including those from third-party suppliers and service providers (e.g., malicious attacks, vulnerabilities, counterfeit components).

Network and software related items can be addressed with software or PCM update at a cost, another half are applicable to all other Porsche models.

Turn off network, turn off apps, just enjoy the sound of driving!

 

[AVM]

Great points summarized. What's baffling is that Porsche determined to take the tougher route ahead, induced less confidence from potential customers for next gen mode! There are examples of AAOS update on previous PCM hardware from Electronic Section of this forum. Note: Not affiliating with third party upgrade, just to point out it can be done with either software update or PCM upgrade if Porsche choose to remediate potential vulnerability. Leaving tens of thousands of previous Porsche models with vulnerable PCM OS/Software will potentially cause Porsche greater financial impact than fixing the old one!

If cybersecurity has to be baked-in as day-1 design, most likely it's affecting at the network communication level, at the worst, existing Porsche lineups (or Macan ICE) can turn off the cellular connection (manually configuration or via software patch), only allow critical firmware/software update at the Authorized Service Department. Remote attacker won't be able to penetrate without the network connectivity in the first place. Supposedly ICE models can operate and transport without cellular connection!

@grim shared UNECE R155 article, an interesting read on Cybersecurity Management System (CSMS):

1. Physical access control — address threats related to unauthorized physical access to vehicle components (e.g., tampering, theft intrusion).
2. Network security — involve threats to the vehicle's internal and external communication networks (e.g., hacking, malware, interception).
3. Software security — identify risks associated with the software running on the vehicle, including its operating system and applications (e.g., exploits, injection, unauthorized access).
4. Data privacy and protection — pertain to threats targeting the confidentiality and integrity of data collected and processed by the vehicle (e.g., breach, tampering, unauthorized access).
5. Operational security — detail threats that impact the vehicle's operational functionality and safety systems come into play (e.g., manipulation, disruption, interference).
6. Remote access control — highlight risks associated with remote access to the vehicle’s systems, often through wireless connections (e.g., hijacking, exploitation, unauthorized access).
7. Supply chain security — cover threats originating from vulnerabilities within the supply chain, including those from third-party suppliers and service providers (e.g., malicious attacks, vulnerabilities, counterfeit components).

Network and software related items can be addressed with software or PCM update at a cost, another half are applicable to all other Porsche models.

Turn off network, turn off apps, just enjoy the sound of driving!

I still fail to understand how producing a cyber secure vehicle has anything to do with ICE vs EV?

AVM

 

[grim]

I still fail to understand how producing a cyber secure vehicle has anything to do with ICE vs EV?

AVM

The ROI isnt there to fix the 12+ old design of the 95B, so they kill it for sale in the EU. They cannot sell the ICE car in the EU without being in compliance. US and CAN have NOT approved the reg so they continue to sell.

 

[yrralis1]

I do not think Porsche is a victim of the nefarious ‘legislation,’ I think they are complicit in it. . .

AVM

I wonder the the diesel scandal took away any negotiating leverage . The clean air cult really went all out ballistic . so did the Courts , lots of money lost, jobs terminated, engineer jailed (he's out now) and EV sprouted .

The Macan is Porsches biggest ticket . To sacrifice it they way the have must have taken pressure .

Either way.. much of the above is speculation. . Hoping that time and lost revenue on a sour EV market lead to cooler heads .

 

[yrralis1]

The ROI isnt there to fix the 12+ old design of the 95B, so they kill it for sale in the EU. They cannot sell the ICE car in the EU without being in compliance. US and CAN have NOT approved the reg so they continue to sell.

I dont think they will do a refresh or redesign though . The only thing that went forward in Porsche SUV land is the cayenne V8 . Since my Macan is new it would be my next step if its discontinued.

 

[yrralis1]

The ROI isnt there to fix the 12+ old design of the 95B, so they kill it for sale in the EU. They cannot sell the ICE car in the EU without being in compliance. US and CAN have NOT approved the reg so they continue to sell.

I wonder how used and CPO markets in Europe will deal with it. I have seen it go both ways with Porsche in the USA . Some discontinued cars plummet while others soar .

 

[4ndy]

I wonder how used and CPO markets in Europe will deal with it. I have seen it go both ways with Porsche in the USA . Some discontinued cars plummet while others soar .

Here in the UK there has definitely been a noticeable rise in used Macan prices since the launch of the disappointing new EV model. I just checked CPO prices on the UK Porsche dealer website and found plenty of used GTS Macans for sale at well over the original new sticker price. The two examples shown below are both priced at £5,000 more than new. Think I will be keeping my car for a few more years yet.

 

[Footie]

Very true Andy I too noticed this, but we all know such things are short lived. The smart person sells because you know that 6 months down the line it will have dropped. Just after Covid used car prices were nuts but months later they dropped back to normal and the same will be true for the Macan.

 

[yrralis1]

Very true Andy I too noticed this, but we all know such things are short lived. The smart person sells because you know that 6 months down the line it will have dropped. Just after Covid used car prices were nuts but months later they dropped back to normal and the same will be true for the Macan.

They are not short-lived. I can only dream of paying $57,300 for brand new 1995 Porsche 993. The same can be said about my 1996 turbo. which by the way I paid over MSRP in 1998 for. It’s now priced triple what I paid. It’s even worse in the GT car range. I have a friend who bought a CPO 2011 RS for $125,000. He was offered $170,000 for it four years later and rejected the offer. They are now selling for $450,000. He still has the car. I can go on endlessly with examples like this, but these are a few that I or people I know have had.

It’s the electric car that is going to plum it in resale. I looked to see if there were any high mileage Taycan reviews or comments. Keep in mind the car is rather new. There is nothing astronomically high in mileage with the car. It’s encouraging the Tesla seems to have a few examples, but there are also examples of brand new Teslas falling apart upon delivery.

The long-term cost is still unknown. It’s a new model making it even further unknown.

I had never watched the premier so I watched about eight or nine minutes of it. I kind of chuckled when they asked the woman who wasn’t art curator if her job was like a vacation and she looked at the interview were like she was delusional and responded by saying it’s very hard work and stressful. I don’t know what any of this had to do with the Macan because I didn’t get that far. There was one thing that I listened to. The representative from Porsche promised that this car will give everything that people are a custom to receiving with Porsche. I don’t believe that for one moment. They promised that with the four-cylinder 718. It failed. With this they can’t give everything that Porsche wants. For starters people have to marry a charging unit . They also have a new worry. They have to worry about range. They have to also worry about fire. We already know it’s not an easy car to extinguish and firefighters go through extended training to be able to deal with EV cars. They also have to face a higher price tag to have all of this . A new Macon turbo cost a lot more than a former Macan GTS.

I can hardly wait to see what the North American numbers are going to be like if Porsche has the guts to actually post them .. usually what Porsche will do is claim “record sales“. Bmw is famous for doing this. They introduce new models so they obviously sell more cars. I would like to see the breakdown but I have a feeling the number one seller in the United States is still going to be the four-cylinder base.

 

[Footie]

They are not short-lived. I can only dream of paying $57,300 for brand new 1995 Porsche 993. The same can be said about my 1996 turbo. which by the way I paid over MSRP in 1998 for. It’s now priced triple what I paid. It’s even worse in the GT car range. I have a friend who bought a CPO 2011 RS for $125,000. He was offered $170,000 for it four years later and rejected the offer. They are now selling for $450,000. He still has the car. I can go on endlessly with examples like this, but these are a few that I or people I know have had.

It’s the electric car that is going to plum it in resale. I looked to see if there were any high mileage Taycan reviews or comments. Keep in mind the car is rather new. There is nothing astronomically high in mileage with the car. It’s encouraging the Tesla seems to have a few examples, but there are also examples of brand new Teslas falling apart upon delivery.

The long-term cost is still unknown. It’s a new model making it even further unknown.

I had never watched the premier so I watched about eight or nine minutes of it. I kind of chuckled when they asked the woman who wasn’t art curator if her job was like a vacation and she looked at the interview were like she was delusional and responded by saying it’s very hard work and stressful. I don’t know what any of this had to do with the Macan because I didn’t get that far. There was one thing that I listened to. The representative from Porsche promised that this car will give everything that people are a custom to receiving with Porsche. I don’t believe that for one moment. They promised that with the four-cylinder 718. It failed. With this they can’t give everything that Porsche wants. For starters people have to marry a charging unit . They also have a new worry. They have to worry about range. They have to also worry about fire. We already know it’s not an easy car to extinguish and firefighters go through extended training to be able to deal with EV cars. They also have to face a higher price tag to have all of this . A new Macon turbo cost a lot more than a former Macan GTS.

I can hardly wait to see what the North American numbers are going to be like if Porsche has the guts to actually post them .. usually what Porsche will do is claim “record sales“. Bmw is famous for doing this. They introduce new models so they obviously sell more cars. I would like to see the breakdown but I have a feeling the number one seller in the United States is still going to be the four-cylinder base.

Move to the UK, you’ll get a 2012 911 Carrera with 65K miles for less that £40K.

 

[yrralis1]

Move to the UK, you’ll get a 2012 911 Carrera with 65K miles for less that £40K.

View attachment 280745

Thats is because no one wants a 2012 991.1 . It was a first year model launched in the middle of the year with all types of problems . There was a hesitation stumble with PDK. There were all types of tech quirks . Porsche resolved most of them by 2013 but even that car wont command the price of something like a last air cooled 993 or a Gt car on the smaller platform with the Gt1 engine .

Dont count on the last Ice Macan becoming a classic either . Porsche SUV's generally tank and the idea that they are getting markups in UK implies that despite the clean air cultural brainwashing people are saying NO . We have a few in the USA too so its not personal. However , the garden variety average Joe in the USA is getting dumber . Dont count on him ever quitting his V8 pickup truck . or giving up McDonalds , or getting worried about recycling . He won't even pick up his dog poop . My pushback is nothing compared to his .

If you want to look at a 911 holding value look at a 2018 Gt3 . Its a 5 year old car asking more than sticker , the touring(more rare than wing car ) is even higher .

Luxury Supercars For Sale in London | Luxury Car Showroom

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gvelondon.com

 

[AVM]

So, Porsche had a choice and they chose to cater to legislative policy over consumer interest

Porsche chose to build cyber security around EV and not ICE

This will not end well for the Macan EV or Porsche because, ultimately, the consumer controls legislators, policy, and the market

There is a train coming down the tracks . . .

AVM

 

[grim]

Porsche chose to build cyber security around EV and not ICE

Wait, thats a misunderstanding

The 992 is ICE and fine with UNEC R155. The 95B platform is 12+ years old. Theres no ROI. Meanwhile plans for the other cars for EV are years away.

VAG needs to get emissions down now to avoid fines. You do that by starting with the high volume car, Macan. Its a business decision.

 

[Footie]

Thats is because no one wants a 2012 991.1 . It was a first year model launched in the middle of the year with all types of problems . There was a hesitation stumble with PDK. There were all types of tech quirks . Porsche resolved most of them by 2013 but even that car wont command the price of something like a last air cooled 993 or a Gt car on the smaller platform with the Gt1 engine .

Dont count on the last Ice Macan becoming a classic either . Porsche SUV's generally tank and the idea that they are getting markups in UK implies that despite the clean air cultural brainwashing people are saying NO . We have a few in the USA too so its not personal. However , the garden variety average Joe in the USA is getting dumber . Dont count on him ever quitting his V8 pickup truck . or giving up McDonalds , or getting worried about recycling . He won't even pick up his dog poop . My pushback is nothing compared to his .

If you want to look at a 911 holding value look at a 2018 Gt3 . Its a 5 year old car asking more than sticker , the touring(more rare than wing car ) is even higher .

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Explore luxury supercars for sale in London at our premium showroom. We have a collection of over 60 supercars, which are worth more than £15 Million, combined.

gvelondon.com

Never looked at any car as an investment, to me a car is something I use daily, a tool, nothing more. f I need to go lift stock for work or bags of cement etc then so be it because the business pays for it it’s that simple.

Drove a GT3 and a GT4RS hated both, way too raw for daily driving and completely impractical due to the noise and ride quality, as a toy to put 1000 miles or per year sure I get that but I ain’t that type of guy.

 

[AVM]

Wait, thats a misunderstanding

The 992 is ICE and fine with UNEC R155. The 95B platform is 12+ years old. Theres no ROI. Meanwhile plans for the other cars for EV are years away.

VAG needs to get emissions down now to avoid fines. You do that by starting with the high volume car, Macan. Its a business decision.

@grim

I know we are talking about the same thing and I am pretty confident we even agree on the current state of things

However, where we MIGHT differ pertains to the (near) future of things, and why I believe Porsche made the wrong investment

Politely, Porsche banked with the current ‘legislation.’ Bluntly, Porsche is complicit in a nefarious agenda by the ‘legislators’

Either way, the inmates will not be running the asylum much longer . . . THAT is what Porsche should have banked on

If I am wrong, well, then we will all have much bigger issues to confront than what vehicles we drive

AVM

 

[yrralis1]

@grim

I know we are talking about the same thing and I am pretty confident we even agree on the current state of things

However, where we MIGHT differ pertains to the (near) future of things, and why I believe Porsche made the wrong investment

Politely, Porsche banked with the current ‘legislation.’ Bluntly, Porsche is complicit in a nefarious agenda by the ‘legislators’

Either way, the inmates will not be running the asylum much longer . . . THAT is what Porsche should have banked on

If I am wrong, well, then we will all have much bigger issues to confront than what vehicles we drive

AVM

I was under the impression that the mandate came from the European Parliament. That is a collective of multiple countries being represented. I think the only way to change that would be to move. If one country gets voted out, there’s still the rest. Plus cars are not the only issue they deal with so it’s not always a bad thing to have a collective in such a tight region. In the USA we are not accustomed to having five countries within jogging distance of each other. Apparently they chose this and had their reasons. That’s been by point all along though. This is somebody else’s set of rules, I don’t live there. I shouldn’t have to have my wallet. Affected by someone else’s rules. I can still go out and buy a Mustang. I don’t want a Mustang but I can do it. They can’t

 

[grim]

Dont count on him ever quitting his V8 pickup truck . or giving up McDonalds , or getting worried about recycling . He won't even pick up his dog poop . My pushback is nothing compared to his .

This is a culture thing. US/UK might both speak English but the way we live is far apart. We have trails and parks. There will be signs saying

Pick up after your Dog
ITS THE LAW!

and then leash laws, and littering laws with BIG fines >$1000. The parking lot will be full of F150s or full sized SUVs, think Escalade size. 🐶 jumps out, Runs free and Owners eat 🍔🍟, get their dogs and go. The other day Im on an on/off ramp to highway, not interstate, the sides are littered with trash, just disgusting like it was 1963 before Lady Bird Johnson‘s program to pick up highway litter. It was shocking. At least I didnt see an ashtray of butts dumped on the ground. Now its abandoned blue 😷

Here is a British article on how EV demand has fallen and businesses abandoning it

The West’s humiliating electric car climbdown has begun
Feb 2, 2024

It is from the UK POV but the point is taken, the market needs to decide what to build and when.

 

[AVM]

I was under the impression that the mandate came from the European Parliament. That is a collective of multiple countries being represented. I think the only way to change that would be to move. If one country gets voted out, there’s still the rest. Plus cars are not the only issue they deal with so it’s not always a bad thing to have a collective in such a tight region. In the USA we are not accustomed to having five countries within jogging distance of each other. Apparently they chose this and had their reasons. That’s been by point all along though. This is somebody else’s set of rules, I don’t live there. I shouldn’t have to have my wallet. Affected by someone else’s rules. I can still go out and buy a Mustang. I don’t want a Mustang but I can do it. They can’t

@yrralis1

I understand what you are saying and might very well be accused of being ‘American centric’ . . . I am perfectly fine with that, because I am

However, what we are describing is a ‘global agenda’ with a capital ‘N’ on NEFARIOUS

Do European consumers really want EVs and all the other ‘stuff’ crammed down their throats any more than Americans? Take a look at European farmers, for example, including what is going on outside the German parliament as I write

What I was conveying to @grim - and continue to convey to you here - is that change is coming GLOBALLY . . . the consumers have had enough of the inmates running the asylum

Porsche should have banked on the consumer

You might disagree . . . ?

AVM

 

[grim]

I was under the impression that the mandate came from the European Parliament.

The regulation came from the UN. The UN rules nothing.
The EU parliament decided to adopt it. ✅
The US and Canada have not ❌

Porsche wont sell the ICE Macan to EU member countries and will to the US and Canada.

 

[THX_ZORA]

If tomorrow Porsche made an all EV 911 I would test drive a Z06 Corvette .

You would be welcomed into the fold .