[rickrobillard1]

It will be interesting to see how well interest translates to sales. EV sales writ large are slowing, more problems are surfacing and evolving technology likely means lower resale values.

BUT the big question is this: As we move to EVs what exactly is Porsche’s discriminator? Is Porsche going to have superior electric motors? Handle better? Better interior? Or is it simply the status symbol of owning a Porsche that justifies the cost?

Buying a ICE I know I want a Porsche. To me it’s worth the premium price. But an EV? I’m not so sure. If I were forced to buy today I’d probably go with Hyundai or Kia.

 

[4ndy]

I am not a computer programmer or in any way savvy to ‘what is under the hood’ when it comes to computers . . . so forgive me in trying to water things down to my level.

As I understand the discussion, it seems that some legislative body decided to demand EQUATES TO wanting a PC-based system in EU vehicles (for cybersecurity purposes) and Porsche has been using a Mac-based system . . . both provide security, but not the one [they] want.

I understand that Porsche would not want to go back and retrofit vehicles with PC-based system, but would they even need to that? I mean, there must be 10s of millions of cars on the roadways and it would be impractical to have them all ‘retrofitted’ to meet new requirements. In other words, legislation must pertain to all cars produced after a certain date moving forward.

Moving on, and what I believe you were conveying, rather than Porsche using a PC-based system in new Macans being produced, they decided to abandon EVERYTHING (including ICE) and build an entirely new (EV) Macan. Is that abut right? If so, talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

If my simple interpretation is correct, that is absolutely insane and tells me what I already know . . . the automakers are COMPLICIT in what I consider to be a nefarious legislative agenda. I would expand upon this narrative, however, [they] have limited our ability to have such a discussion on this forum . . . all of the REAL reasons why I want absolutely nothing to do with EVs.

AVM

You have nailed it. Not only have Porsche thrown the baby out with the bath water but (in Europe at least) they have actually killed the baby!

 

[AVM]

Dont want to go astray here but I see nothing indicating a Macan EV replacing an ICE EV other than by law.

Indeed, what we have here is consumers who love strawberries . . . and ‘legislators’ dictating everything we eat must be orange.

If the consumers want strawberries, they will get legislators who love strawberries and support farmers who grow strawberries.

‘Drill baby drill’ is coming – and all that comes along with it . . . strawberries will once again be the bunker crop that feeds a nation

AVM

 

[CarmineRedGirl]

In my view it really depends on what you need your car for, and what you enjoy. It also depends on how developed the charger infrastructure is in your region. I have waited until there were enough fast charges in my proximity before deciding to buy an EV, plus I was lucky enough to be given an EV for a month to try out.

Only after that I have decided to go ahead and reluctantly swapped my 740xd for a MY 2023 Taycan CT4 (turbo gave me a whiplash). I've had it now for a few months, and it's a great car to drive, although I still think my BMW 340i is more fun for half the price.

In my area we sadly have plenty or speed cameras and average speed measuring cameras, so going fast is really out of question. With that in mind, I have just ordered a Macan T, even though I loved the GTS the most.

The bottom line is, technology is changing whether we like it or not.

 

[4ndy]

The bottom line is, technology is changing whether we like it or not.

I totally disagree with this. If I don't like something I will not be doing it. Just because someone tells me to do something doesn't mean I will automatically do it. I have my own mind and my own opinions on what is right and wrong. Nobody tells me what to do without me questioning everything before I make a decision that will suit me and my family best.
Don't be a sheep....or a lemming!

 

[grim]

This also indicated other Porsche lineups are as vulnerable as Macan ICE!

If my simple interpretation is correct, that is absolutely insane and tells me what I already know . . . the automakers are COMPLICIT in what I consider to be a nefarious legislative agenda.

Not only have Porsche thrown the baby out with the bath water but (in Europe at least) they have actually killed the baby!

I think there is a misunderstanding here of what is going on. It took a minute to research it. Lets look at the facts more closely. You got to start at the SOURCE. Where is this coming from ... UNECE R155 from 2021. Its not like this just happened yesterday. But that's the UN. There is no world government. And its about cybersecurity which is a GOOD thing. You all want your car hacked?

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNECE_R_155

https://unece.org/sites/default/files/2023-02/R155e%20%282%29.pdf

Who are the members? Here

Member States | UNECE

unece.org

The EU approves laws for Europe, not the UN. And they have decided to enforce this regulation beginning July, 2024. Guess who has NOT signed up to this, two countries, which ones?

USA and Canada, and I don't see Australia either

Now to the Macan, you can begin by reading this

How UNECE R155 Redefined Porsche's Strategy and the Automotive Landscape

Cybersecurity Criticality in the Automotive Sector

mikeentnergomez.substack.com

Its long, explains UNECE R155, the parts of IT it involves, and shows it goes back to Tier1 suppliers. This is all GOOD stuff, unless you want the bad guys to take control of your car. And also explains its a business decision. They are not going to fix a 10 year old car.

But wait, what about the 95.B? Porsche generations usually run about 8 years, more or less. The 95B is now on its 10th year and there will be a eleventh year. AFAIK that is unheard of. I don't know of any third production cycle vehicle. This car was supposed to have died back around MY20 but my guess is the pandemic messed up everything. So here we are. Read the article below. Quote from Porsche.

Cybersecurity Law Forces Porsche To Kill Gas-Powered Macan In Europe [Update]

Porsche just debuted the new, all-electric Macan, but production of a gas-powered model will continue for the US and other markets.

www.motor1.com

A Porsche spokesperson confirmed to Motor1 that the gas model will live on in the US for the foreseeable future.

But wait, what about the 992, Cayenne? Why aren't they being killed?

This regulation doesn't affect sales of the 911, Taycan, Panamera, and Cayenne, which all use new electrical architectures and comply with the law.

Sometimes the answers are simple. Its bad business to fix something old.

 

[Footie]

Its not my "deal" with a Macan . Its what is a selling point used by EV to coax the masses that it has this juvenile perk to it.
X3 M is not just ugly. BMW is not Porsche . I have owned plenty of them and there are not bad cars but they are not great .

Instant acceleration isn’t a juvenile perk of EVs it’s a by-produce of electrical motors plain and simple. BTW not a fan of the X3M, had one out when my M5 was in for a service and fast is all it had going for it but quick it most definitely was.

Don’t agree that all BMWs aren’t the match of a Porsche, I would always pick my F90 M5 Comp over a Paramera and both the M3/4 are the finest examples currently in this caterogy.

I had a BMW X3M on a weekend long test drive before buying my current Macan GTS. It was one of the worst cars I have ever driven. Yes, it's fast but that was the only positive for me. The suspension was much too hard....generally very noisy and uncomfortable. It's not just about speed!

Read my post above about the Cayenne and the X5M, similar situation to the X3M. Speed isn’t the reason you buy any car or at least not my reason but it most definitely is the reason why some are buying the Tesla Plaids.

The Macan GTS doesn’t feel the same as any other Macan and if any of you have driven the Taycan in any form will also know that the Taycan GTS feels different to all the others. Neither the Macan 4 or Turbo will be the sweet spot if you desire a sportier edge even from an EV but according to what I was told when specced my Turbo with the dealer that there’s two models coming in between the 4 and Turbo and one will be the GTS.

Again no one is forcing anyone to buy one but it might be worthwhile taking a drive when that GTS version arrives.

 

[grim]

purses because while my wife understands her Hermes bags is blah blah heritage and tradition, she still boils it down to brand name. I suspect most Macan buyers don't know/don't care about the racing heritage and pay the premium for the brand name, just like a purse.

This is relevant and you have a point there are Macan logo buyers. But WHY?

Porsche uses 5 Psychographic profiles (not demographics) profiling "why" people buy stuff. One is the Top Gun. They crave power and want to be seen. I'm sure everyone has seen these, they park their car RIGHT in front of the restaurant so everyone can see what they are driving. But why? Racing. They want to be associated with the brand. Buy a Porsche, win races.

I suspect Hermes buyers also have this same profile, I mean who wouldn't want to own a bag and be just like a Princess? How many celebrities are used to advertise goods? That kind of advertising works because people have fantasies of being just like a celebrity. Who doesn't want to be a football star or the Princess of Monaco? But what is Herme's heritage, certainly not racing?

They started as a bridle maker for European nobles. I'm sure all those rich people wouldn't be buying junk. The motor car came about and the grandson visited America, met Henry Ford, and discovered a new fangled device called the "zipper". In 1922, they knew the Horse business was over and instead of making saddle bags, made luggage and handbags. He was taking his wife by motor car across Europe and made her a new handbag, used that new fangled Zipper, shaped it as a trapezoid with a rounded top, and it fit easily into the motorcar boot. And handbag legends began, they called it the Comet, the nickname for a "sports" car then renamed it Bolide. Look at the other bags, some look like saddlebags. Why? Heritage. It all began with quality goods for Nobles.

It always goes back to "why" are their logo buyers? And it is heritage. They wanna be just like .... whoever. One is Racing, the other is quality goods bought buy the elite, the upper class European nobles. Prince Edward saw that zipper and wanted one on his leather coat. Imagine that.

Now there are other Porsche profiles. One is the Proud Patron. This is the guy who has the poster on the wall, dreams of owning one one day, finally "make it", and buys that dream. But why? Racing. It isn't because he wants an engine in the wrong place and had a tendency to kiss the wall. Similarly, why would woman want a handbag that looks like a saddlebag?

 

[AVM]

I think there is a misunderstanding here of what is going on. It took a minute to research it. Lets look at the facts more closely. You got to start at the SOURCE. Where is this coming from ... UNECE R155 from 2021. Its not like this just happened yesterday. But that's the UN. There is no world government. And its about cybersecurity which is a GOOD thing. You all want your car hacked?

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNECE_R_155

https://unece.org/sites/default/files/2023-02/R155e%20%282%29.pdf

Who are the members? Here

Member States | UNECE

unece.org

The EU approves laws for Europe, not the UN. And they have decided to enforce this regulation beginning July, 2024. Guess who has NOT signed up to this, two countries, which ones?

USA and Canada, and I don't see Australia either

Now to the Macan, you can begin by reading this

How UNECE R155 Redefined Porsche's Strategy and the Automotive Landscape

Cybersecurity Criticality in the Automotive Sector

mikeentnergomez.substack.com

Its long, explains UNECE R155, the parts of IT it involves, and shows it goes back to Tier1 suppliers. This is all GOOD stuff, unless you want the bad guys to take control of your car. And also explains its a business decision. They are not going to fix a 10 year old car.

But wait, what about the 95.B? Porsche generations usually run about 8 years, more or less. The 95B is now on its 10th year and there will be a eleventh year. AFAIK that is unheard of. I don't know of any third production cycle vehicle. This car was supposed to have died back around MY20 but my guess is the pandemic messed up everything. So here we are. Read the article below. Quote from Porsche.

Cybersecurity Law Forces Porsche To Kill Gas-Powered Macan In Europe [Update]

Porsche just debuted the new, all-electric Macan, but production of a gas-powered model will continue for the US and other markets.

www.motor1.com

A Porsche spokesperson confirmed to Motor1 that the gas model will live on in the US for the foreseeable future.

But wait, what about the 992, Cayenne? Why aren't they being killed?

This regulation doesn't affect sales of the 911, Taycan, Panamera, and Cayenne, which all use new electrical architectures and comply with the law.

Sometimes the answers are simple. Its bad business to fix something old.

Very nice write up, but I do not THINK it addresses my point based on my understanding. . .

Namely, if it’s all about cybersecurity, then it has nothing to do with ICE. It’s a computer chip or program. As you stated, Porsche ‘fixed it’ in the 911 without destroying the 911.

If Porsche wanted to redesign the Macan, that’s cool. The 718 needs a refresh too. However, they could have changed a computer chip without killing the appliance.

I do not think Porsche is a victim of the nefarious ‘legislation,’ I think they are complicit in it. . .

AVM

 

[CarmineRedGirl]

I totally disagree with this. If I don't like something I will not be doing it. Just because someone tells me to do something doesn't mean I will automatically do it. I have my own mind and my own opinions on what is right and wrong. Nobody tells me what to do without me questioning everything before I make a decision that will suit me and my family best.
Don't be a sheep....or a lemming!

I have 2 ICE cars and one EV, plus I have just ordered another ICE car. I am not trying to force anyone to buy an EV, all I am saying is that we all have a free choice. Nobody made me buy the Taycan, I chose to buy it and if it doesn't work for me, then I still have other cars.
As you've said, whatever suits YOUR needs best.

 

[grim]

Very nice write up, but I do not THINK it addresses my point based on my understanding. . .

Namely, if it’s all about cybersecurity, then it has nothing to do with ICE. It’s a computer chip or program. As you stated, Porsche ‘fixed it’ in the 911 without destroying the 911.

If Porsche wanted to redesign the Macan, that’s cool. The 718 needs a refresh too. However, they could have changed a computer chip without killing the appliance.

I do not think Porsche is a victim of the nefarious ‘legislation,’ I think they are complicit in it. . .

AVM

Thanks but its a business design. The new regulation means the cybersecurity has to be integrated as part of the car design from day 1.

How UNECE R155 Redefined Porsche's Strategy and the Automotive Landscape

Cybersecurity Criticality in the Automotive Sector

mikeentnergomez.substack.com

security needs to be a fundamental part of vehicle design, not an afterthought ... Implementing UNECE R155 is no small undertaking for vehicle manufacturers. They must demonstrate compliance with the regulation through rigorous testing and certification processes.

There is no way they are going to build a second generation ICE vehicle. It makes no business sense UNLESS, the NA market has sufficient sales to justify the ROI. Its all about making money and PAG is VERY VERY GOOD at making money.

The 718 ICE is dead. Per Porsche, It only existed for the Chinese market. There is little to no US market for the 718. There will be no 718 ICE.

I firmly believe this is all about making money, and nothing else.

 

[AVM]

I totally disagree with this. If I don't like something I will not be doing it. Just because someone tells me to do something doesn't mean I will automatically do it. I have my own mind and my own opinions on what is right and wrong. Nobody tells me what to do without me questioning everything before I make a decision that will suit me and my family best.
Don't be a sheep....or a lemming!

💯

 

[Footie]

This is relevant and you have a point there are Macan logo buyers. But WHY?

Porsche uses 5 Psychographic profiles (not demographics) profiling "why" people buy stuff. One is the Top Gun. They crave power and want to be seen. I'm sure everyone has seen these, they park their car RIGHT in front of the restaurant so everyone can see what they are driving. But why? Racing. They want to be associated with the brand. Buy a Porsche, win races.

I suspect Hermes buyers also have this same profile, I mean who wouldn't want to own a bag and be just like a Princess? How many celebrities are used to advertise goods? That kind of advertising works because people have fantasies of being just like a celebrity. Who doesn't want to be a football star or the Princess of Monaco? But what is Herme's heritage, certainly not racing?

They started as a bridle maker for European nobles. I'm sure all those rich people wouldn't be buying junk. The motor car came about and the grandson visited America, met Henry Ford, and discovered a new fangled device called the "zipper". In 1922, they knew the Horse business was over and instead of making saddle bags, made luggage and handbags. He was taking his wife by motor car across Europe and made her a new handbag, used that new fangled Zipper, shaped it as a trapezoid with a rounded top, and it fit easily into the motorcar boot. And handbag legends began, they called it the Comet, the nickname for a "sports" car then renamed it Bolide. Look at the other bags, some look like saddlebags. Why? Heritage. It all began with quality goods for Nobles.

It always goes back to "why" are their logo buyers? And it is heritage. They wanna be just like .... whoever. One is Racing, the other is quality goods bought buy the elite, the upper class European nobles. Prince Edward saw that zipper and wanted one on his leather coat. Imagine that.

Now there are other Porsche profiles. One is the Proud Patron. This is the guy who has the poster on the wall, dreams of owning one one day, finally "make it", and buys that dream. But why? Racing. It isn't because he wants an engine in the wrong place and had a tendency to kiss the wall. Similarly, why would woman want a handbag that looks like a saddlebag?

I think the percentage of Porsche owners that buy one based on their racing heritage is all on this or similar forums, in other words enthusiasts. The average buyer buys one purely because it’s a prestigious brand, they associate it with wealth and success nothing more and want a piece of that.

 

[Footie]

I totally disagree with this. If I don't like something I will not be doing it. Just because someone tells me to do something doesn't mean I will automatically do it. I have my own mind and my own opinions on what is right and wrong. Nobody tells me what to do without me questioning everything before I make a decision that will suit me and my family best.
Don't be a sheep....or a lemming!

Couldn’t agree more, don’t do anything you don’t want to do.

As much as it’s your preference to make your own choices and pick what you want and best suits your lifestyle and family you shouldn’t mock or laugh at someone else who decides they want to change from petrol/diesel power to either electric or hydrogen if it suits them.

 

[Footie]

Is the cybersecurity issue that affects the ICE Macan and the reason it’s been dropped by the EU market have anything to do with vehicle theft?

A serious question that I hope isn’t the case because if it does then that would be concerning because the Range Rover is very much a hot potato among insurance companies at the moment especially in the UK.

 

[4ndy]

Couldn’t agree more, don’t do anything you don’t want to do.

As much as it’s your preference to make your own choices and pick what you want and best suits your lifestyle and family you shouldn’t mock or laugh at someone else who decides they want to change from petrol/diesel power to either electric or hydrogen if it suits them.

Yes, you are absolutely right....everyone should have a choice. The only problem at the moment is that it feels very much like we are being pushed, coerced and almost forced into driving electric cars. Personally I don't like that feeling...I just want to make my own choice, in my own time.

 

[Footie]

Yes, you are absolutely right....everyone should have a choice. The only problem at the moment is that it feels very much like we are being pushed, coerced and almost forced into driving electric cars. Personally I don't like that feeling...I just want to make my own choice, in my own time.

What is happening else where in the world will probably catch up in the US in a few years but it will ultimately be lead by infrastructure limitations more than anything else, people won’t move until they are confident they can charge easily whether at home or out and about. If you look at the Scandinavian countries once the infrastructure is in place people seem willing to adapt without the need to be forced.

So once that part of the equation is fixed maybe then more people who have a desire to switch but are currently rightly nervous will do so without being force but it should always be the individual’s decision and never be pushed, coerced or forced.

 

[AVM]

The only problem at the moment is that it feels very much like we are being pushed, coerced and almost forced into driving electric cars.

Yeah, and there has not been much of that going on in the world the past few years

AVM

 

[AVM]

I firmly believe this is all about making money, and nothing else.

Absolutely about money . . . but it is also about control

AVM

 

[ericsan13]

A current model GTS would absolutely destroy a model Y in just about any test of skill or agility.

And just for the record, it smashed the model Y in a drag race too.

This is against the cheaper Model Y Long Range, not the Performance version. =/ I am sure we will see some real drag races on youtube soon enough though.