[Footie]

I have a little bit of insider knowledge here, and I'll just say that the Macan ICE and Macan EV are completely different architectures. PCM6 (and prior) are based on BlackBerry's QNX RTOS which is pretty ancient. Macan EV is using Android Automotive OS (AAOS), which is modern and being actively developed. The cybersecurity issue with Macan's PCM5 won't be remediated, so it's easier to just pull the plug (ha!) on it.

I've read @grim and others' responses about the feel of an ICE car and the convenience of refueling. All completely valid points. Change is hard. And I love the emotion of driving an enthusiast-oriented car as much as anyone here, which is why I have a 992 T (7MT) in my garage.

I just read a fascinating article from The Atlantic about the Chinese EV market:



These are solvable problems. Yes, China does not have the legacy infrastructure and installed base like the US. But they also have 10 cities with more population than NYC, and they're making EVs work.

As of this month, the Japanese government is no longer requiring the use of floppy disks and CD-ROMs to do business with them. It's laughable that the Japanese who were once the world leaders in all things tech are still dependent on 30 year old technology, right? But in 2054, is America's transportation sector still being dependent on oil going to be as laughable as the floppy disk in 2024?

Please don’t delete, it’s not political


The difference between China and every other country is democracy, when you don’t have to worry about being voted out of office you can basically do anything.

So whilst I agree China are showing the rest of the world EV can work and be changed towards it remarkably quickly for the rest of the world this will not happen any way as quick.

 

[ericsan13]

Please don’t delete, it’s not political


The difference between China and every other country is democracy, when you don’t have to worry about being voted out of office you can basically do anything.

So whilst I agree China are showing the rest of the world EV can work and be changed towards it remarkably quickly for the rest of the world this will not happen any way as quick.

"The top 5 countries with the highest share of EV sales are Norway (all-electric vehicles made up 80% of passenger vehicle sales in 2022), Iceland (41%), Sweden (32%), the Netherlands (24%) and China (22%)"

These Countries Are Adopting Electric Vehicles the Fastest

Norway and China are among the top countries scaling electric vehicles at rates needed to meet international climate goals.

www.wri.org

Multiple democracies (and cold countries) up there ?

Chinese developers cut through the red tape and they have been building for a long time, so they have that infrastructure development advantage going for them.

 

[EdwardATX]

EV can be bricked because of OTA sw updates? What?

Yep. Traditional car companies aren't good at software. News at 10.

 

[M GTS]

China is its own entity as mentioned, nothing to compare to western markets.
There is only one reason China have forced, incentivised their people into EV.
$$$$$'s - reverse engineering and to maintain the countless factories pumping components, keep jobs and Export.
No one has choice they are run by the CCP.
The remaining Top5 countries mentioned are a root cause to the rest of us.

 

[Footie]

Yep. Traditional car companies aren't good at software. News at 10.

Probably use silicon valley to do their software.

 

[grim]

These are solvable problems. Yes, China does not have the legacy infrastructure and installed base like the US. But they also have 10 cities with more population than NYC, and they're making EVs work.

This is getting borderline political but it is about the Macan. Obviously the Macan was announced in Asia for a reason, they appear to be the primary target audience. Any communist country can make about anything work because the consumers have no choice. That won't work, like where others said, in democracies where the current "leaders" are voted out of office. So Norway would be a better example. Lets leave it at that because this discussion can degenerate quickly and then would get shut down.

However, a potential solution to the infrastructure problem is to just build Charging stations at every gas station. Gas stations have PRIME real estate, Some corners have 4 gas stations. They are very prime real estate in cities. The land is already there. Its surprising gas stations haven't become charging stations but there must be are reason I don't know;.

 

[AVM]

A couple of things you guys are discussing.

First, the Macan Turbo PP "technically" is not a trim level. Rather the PP was an "option". Why? I got no idea. I think most people thought the S would come out but instead they went to the short lived .2 version of the car. My suspicious is they expect the second generation car, the EV, to come out in MY20, but the pandemic happened. They have known for a very long time that the emissions fines would destroy the company. But I think a lot of that got pushed back because of the pandemic. Since the Macan EV is the second generation vehicle, I fully expect a Turbo S model and apparently the #2 guy at PAG confirmed it.

Second, AFAIK, the Cayenne GT is NOT a Motorsports car, so don't even talk about it in the same breath as a GT2, GT3, or GT4. You see those numerics after GT? Those are the racing classes. GT2 no longer races but the 3 and 4 DO race.

Andreas Preuninger (AP) runs the GT racing division, ie, motorsports. Those cars are meant to be homologation cars for the Race cars. You can look them up what each one does but generally speaking, the GT3 allows Porsche to run in the WEC GT3 class. Here is an example

Debut for the newest generation of the Porsche 911 GT3 R

The new Porsche 911 GT3 R will be unveiled to the public at this year’s 24 Hours of Spa-Francorchamps. Compared to its predecessor, the new 911 GT3 R features a larger engine producing up to 565 HP, a more constant aerodynamic performance and an optimized vehicle balance.

newsroom.porsche.com

This is the latest 911 GT3 R (R as in Racing). Its homogolation car is the 992 GT3.

"homologated for the FIA GTE category; homologation basis: Porsche 911 GT3 (992 series)."

AP has EXPLICITLY stated there will NOT be a GT Macan or Cayenne. Quote:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15341408/porsche-we-wont-do-any-gt-suvs-ever/

“The credibility of the GT car is based on direct bloodline to the race cars,” he told C/D. “A customer buying a GT3 knows there’s a derivative that’s on track every other weekend in a different race series. ... “If we were to enter the Dakar rally with a Macan or Cayenne—something we have no plans to do—then maybe the Motorsport department would develop that car and bring it to the race. Then I would see a good excuse to make something for the street that is very close,” Preuninger said. “But to just use a badge on a Panamera or Cayenne to make it more attractive, for me, would not be credible. It would only be marketing, I don’t think that’s the right thing to do."

But wait, there is Cayenne Turbo GT, right? But its NOT a motorsports division car that I can tell. It's just another trim level.

Porsche Cayenne Turbo GT Coupe review: a 631bhp super-SUV with carbon aero Reviews 2023 | Top Gear

A two-tonne 4x4 that needs actual downforce? Purr-lease. Apparently, those funny carbon Shrek ears either side of the roof spoiler – and the 25mm-longer ducktail on the pop-up rear wing – aren’t just visual shorthand for ‘I’ve bought the most expensive non-hybrid Porsche Cayenne’. Apparently...

www.topgear.com

This Cayenne isn’t a pedigree product of the same Weissach skunkworks that brings you the 911 GT2 and GT3. It’s said to ‘have the blessing’ of the GT department.

What does that mean? It would seem some design came out of Weissach but its not a motorsports vehicle. There is no racing class for SUVs that I know. Here is a 2023 article on the new Cayenne

Testing of the new Porsche Cayenne reaches the home straight

Porsche is meticulously preparing the new Cayenne for its launch. Until then, the prototypes and pre-production vehicles are being subjected to challenging endurance tests to ensure that they meet Porsche’s high quality standards.

newsroom.porsche.com

In addition to realigning the drive portfolio, the engineers at the Porsche Development Centre in Weissach made major revisions to the Cayenne’s chassis system.

So when they mention Weissach, that doesn't seem to necessarily mean Motorsports.

Development Centre Weissach: the heart of Porsche

Every Porsche has the same origin: the Development Centre in Weissach. Take a glimpse into the secret grounds, which extend to around a hundred hectares.

newsroom.porsche.com

Every Porsche has the same origin: the Development Centre in Weissach.

If someone has some evidence the Cayenne Turbo GT is a motorsports car, please provide it. Similarly I expect the Macan EV GT to be the same thing, "blessed" but not a motorsports car under AP. There is a HUGE difference between being a vehicle designed as a homologation car and a street production car. Porsche trim levels can confuse anyone. Macan Turbo? They are all Turbos, etc.

Great post!

AVM

 

[Footie]

This is getting borderline political but it is about the Macan. Obviously the Macan was announced in Asia for a reason, they appear to be the primary target audience. Any communist country can make about anything work because the consumers have no choice. That won't work, like where others said, in democracies where the current "leaders" are voted out of office. So Norway would be a better example. Lets leave it at that because this discussion can degenerate quickly and then would get shut down.

However, a potential solution to the infrastructure problem is to just build Charging stations at every gas station. Gas stations have PRIME real estate, Some corners have 4 gas stations. They are very prime real estate in cities. The land is already there. Its surprising gas stations haven't become charging stations but there must be are reason I don't know;.

Shell and BP have been quick to move into this market with dedicated mega charging stations here in the UK that operate by credit card instead of the usual app system though pricy.

Shell opens first dedicated electric vehicle charging hub | Move Electric

www.moveelectric.com

 

[yrralis1]

Not that Porsche listens to me . . .

For years the ICE Macan was ripe for a GT variant, but I recall an article somewhere in this forum where one of the head gurus at Porsche stated clearly that there will never be a GT Macan variant.

Personally, I think it would be stupid to put the Porsche GT label on an SUV. On the other hand, if Porsche ever did (1) I am certain it would be one bad-a** SUV and (2) they could sell as many as they wanted at just about whatever price they wanted.

Now, after all the ICE Macan GT denial over the years, you are telling me Porsche plans to manufacture an EV Macan GT model??? What??!

This seems absolutely pathetic . . . coming from the perspective of a driving enthusiast. All the stuff @grim and @yrralis1 referenced earlier in the thread with respect to cars and coffee. NA engine and exhaust acoustics, relatively light and nimble handling, sporty/exotic design . . . basically all the stuff that is non-existent in an EV.

Hard pass on EVs . . . and shame on Porsche for even suggesting they will be throwing their coveted GT tag on a Macan EV. Tragic!

AVM

I always felt Porsche should make a Gt variant . They never released official Nurburgring numbers . Unofficially 8 min 15 sec on a first gen car was clocked .
Just to show how they change they change their mind . see old article Porsche has no plans for a Macan or Cayenne GT - Autoblog

Who knows ? The Taycan Turbo S GT is an EV and ran 7 min 7 sec .

Imagine if the Porsche strategy is to work backwards . They start out with big tank like vehicles that nearly catch a Gt3 only to drop the "we are making a 911 EV " news that no one wants to hear .

They could have taken ICE further but they were stopped . Governments have given a free pass to EV . Realistically the Tesla Plaid should not even be legal . Its is an unsafe pile of junk yet it can travel at warp speed .

Its been an unfair match .

 

[yrralis1]

I know I have made my views on EVs clear, but there is something just so wrong about spitting out Porsche and EV in the same sentence.

I also know you know this as a driving enthusiast, but 0-60 is about all EVs have to offer . . . and almost irrelevant when it comes to enjoying, say, a GT4. In fact, going from 0 to jail time in 3-4 seconds - then braking - gets really old really fast.

I have heard more than a few times the Mazda Miata is more enjoyable on the common roadways than a GT4 by many driving enthusiasts.

Anyway, I digress . . . yes, Porsche could go on indefinitely producing great sport cars without all the nefarious legislative agendas. I stand my ground by stating 'drill baby drill' will be here before you know it.

AVM

The American companies are not following the European laws . They actually are making a choice possible which is where I feel it should be . The sad part is that the ICE cars are good but they are not Porsches . Chevrolet threw the kitchen sink at the Corvette . Even Ford put a track app in the Dark Horse Mustang , I get in my 992 GTS and its just an entirely different world . I never looked at American cars until the last 3 years .I even went to the local Corvette launch event and felt welcomed . Hard to imagine after all the years at Porsche .

Right now it looks like this is the last ICE Macan . If it remains in the USA for a year or two as I have been told there won't be any more revisions . I will head over to the Cayenne at that point .
Eventually I suppose I will end up saving money but there is no way I am jumping in with big money for an EV .

 

[slw23]

The rules change because within the EV world, there are other competitive, more-or-equally powerful offerings. There is less to differentiate than ICE (turbo/supercharger/liters/etc.) vs. EV (battery/e-motors).

Porsche has brand name going for them, but as a result of performance first, then design, then luxury. The EV Macan on paper isn't raising the bar on performance/power. Am I wrong? No one sees these as under-powered? Am I the only speed-demon? Is it because it's already faster 0-60 than the ICE equivalent?

You can remove the first part of the sentence about EV and the rest of it still applies to the entire Porsche line up. Of course you can think the rules should be different, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there. Porsche performance has never relied upon straight line speed, 0-60 times, or raw power as its key selling points. I really didn't expect they would change their formula for the Macan. Once can look at the Taycan as an example.

In any case, good discussion.

 

[ericsan13]

You can remove the first part of the sentence about EV and the rest of it still applies to the entire Porsche line up. Of course you can think the rules should be different, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there. Porsche performance has never relied upon straight line speed, 0-60 times, or raw power as its key selling points. I really didn't expect they would change their formula for the Macan. Once can look at the Taycan as an example.

In any case, good discussion.

Good point. I am not a very brand-loyal buyer, so perhaps I think differently. I have heard families stick with one or two brands for some reason. But I do think that they still have a poor value proposition. My Macan S does not drive that differently than say my Lexus F Sport or my Rivian SUVs or any other luxury sport SUVs I've driven (heresy I know!). The performance gap may closer than they imagine amongst EV competition.

Edit: Also, my wife says it's pretty much all brand prestige.

 

[Robert M]

This is getting borderline political but it is about the Macan. Obviously the Macan was announced in Asia for a reason, they appear to be the primary target audience. Any communist country can make about anything work because the consumers have no choice. That won't work, like where others said, in democracies where the current "leaders" are voted out of office. So Norway would be a better example. Lets leave it at that because this discussion can degenerate quickly and then would get shut down.

However, a potential solution to the infrastructure problem is to just build Charging stations at every gas station. Gas stations have PRIME real estate, Some corners have 4 gas stations. They are very prime real estate in cities. The land is already there. Its surprising gas stations haven't become charging stations but there must be are reason I don't know;.

Potential EV battery fire at a gas station probably wouldn't end well.

 

[Robert M]

Shell and BP have been quick to move into this market with dedicated mega charging stations here in the UK that operate by credit card instead of the usual app system though pricy.

Shell opens first dedicated electric vehicle charging hub | Move Electric

www.moveelectric.com

Just like their fuel prices.

 

[M GTS]

Oz doing similar to UK

Tesla opens largest electric-car fast charging station in Australia

The new Tesla charging station is reported to house 16 new V4 superchargers, but won’t be available to non-Tesla drivers until after the holiday period.

www.drive.com.au

 

[ericsan13]

Potential EV battery fire at a gas station probably wouldn't end well.

Probably watching too many movies of gas stations exploding, but I would wager that's the safest place. Gas stations are literally equipped to contain fires with suppression systems. And make it policy for them to carry an EV fire blanket if they already don't have a fire blanket.

 

[grim]

This is from today from AP. The EV just rips through the crash barrier like it isnt there but the damage to the Jersey barrier is startling 😳

Physics, gotta love it, mass matters

 

[Robert M]

Probably watching too many movies of gas stations exploding, but I would wager that's the safest place. Gas stations are literally equipped to contain fires with suppression systems. And make it policy for them to carry an EV fire blanket if they already don't have a fire blanket.

You’ll need more than a fire blanket to stop an EV fire.

 

[169340]

It surprises me how many people are in the dark as to the oil situation, why do you think they are developing synthetic fuel, do you genuinely believe this has anything to do with CO2 or climate.

The oceans produce over 90% of the world CO2 so you can guess after that just how much we are producing and yet it’s ours that’s going to make the difference, wake up and smell the coffee. We need to switch from oil, it’s not a choice it’s a necessity and whilst it’s OK for you and I to keep using it willy nilly it’s our kids and their kids that will be the ones picking up the pieces.


I will throw headlines

When Will Fossil Fuels Run Out? - Infinity Renewables.

Some might argue that we will never run out of oil but the likelihood is that to drill at the depths needed it wouldn’t be cost effective to do so. So at some point in the not to distant future fuel prices will go up dramatically which is why synthetic fuel will take the lead but without a doubt it is much more expensive to produce than what we are currently paying so at some point everyone will be questioning can they afford to run their motors or do those long journeys.

What does the co2 from the oceans have to do with the introduction of an electric Macan? LOL

 

[169340]

Hybrid on makes sense if you regularly do long journeys because the aren’t as efficient at these long journeys as a regular ICE equivalent and in city they aren’t as efficient as a full EV. Plus you are hauling a lot of weight from the batteries so the don’t handling as well as either an EV or regular ICE.

We have one in our fleet which is a GolfGTE and even the guy that drives it will go back to a diesel or switch to an EV after his lease is up but at the time the leasing deal was a cracker so he went with it.

Beats sitting for an hour to recharge any day.