[hitmonlee]

The transition to EV is gradual, not instant. BMW sells lots of X5s and since they released the iX (the "X5 EV" if you will), some X5 owners have "migrated" but most haven't (yet). BMW seems to be doing ok, and so do the majority of the iX owners (I'm sure you can find unhappy ones but same can be said with the ICE Macan, or any model really).

How's the (upcoming) transition to Macan EV special/different?

 

[yrralis1]

Not any more so than a guy cruising in a 400 plus horsepower sports car alone on a Sunday morning. Excessiveness is in the eyes of the beholder, and I’ll admit, I’m in the latter category. It’s free will, freedom in place, subject to governmental control.

It depends what the car emissions states . A V12 Ferrari would be an example of excess in a sports car segment . The V8 nearly 3 ton SUV its an example out of the SUV domain . I didnt exclude sports cars . I do feel that Porsche has made revisions .

 

[sergeyb]

@EdwardATX, interesting post on the reasons why you switched from EV to ICE. I just dropped my Taycan for a scheduled transport damage fixes and the dealership gave me a 992 S to drive with 5k miles on it and in short, I do not get it.

I have never owned or driven one, thinking, if I do then I will want one, and now Larry @yrralis1 is highly recommending I do so, so I asked for it today as opportunity presented. They said given my status they can get me one (not the GT3 kind, which would not be anything like that), that surprised me given many years wait everyone else is reporting. A 10-mile drive from the dealership to home was very underwhelming, as I am looking for a smooth/comfy daily driver with fun and power to go around town (lots of round abouts and ramps to do so). Lots of drama with engine noise (not pleasant to my ears in sound, frequency, or vibration feedback), and PDK shifts super quick, but the shifts are felt in the seat, sluggish at low speeds, and the only way to get the power is to keep it revved up which is not possible in slow going around town traffic, even with stretches of longer 60mph roads, and the entire look/shape/feel inside and out felt say classic as to not say old feeling. I guess I am too young and/or too stupid to appreciate this thing (Judd Apatow story comes to mind when he bought one and then returned it right away), so I was thinking to myself, Taycan is just way too much fun to drive, futuristic, looks amazing and nothing with wheels should be doing this, where in this 922 S, I was thinking, I do not get it, certainly not for me for daily driving and for sure not be relaxing for a weekend stroll, which is when I see most of them around town. I felt the same way when they gave me a Cayenne GT, a lot of drama, noise, lots of abrupt power with harsh and jarring ride (22-inch set with summers and they do special toe angle something on it), so getting back in our Cayenne or Macan Turbo was where we belong, which is comfy/fun and sublime in a daily or long-distance cruising, and Taycan is in a totally different league as it comes to daily driving with instant power with no drama, as you feel you are not even touching the ground when passing or carving a corner.

 

[yrralis1]

The transition to EV is gradual, not instant. BMW sells lots of X5s and since they released the iX (the "X5 EV" if you will), some X5 owners have "migrated" but most haven't (yet). BMW seems to be doing ok, and so do the majority of the iX owners (I'm sure you can find unhappy ones but same can be said with the ICE Macan, or any model really).

How's the (upcoming) transition to Macan EV special/different?

The EV Macan was originally slated to varnish . As of recent (this summer) Porsche is reexamining this . Porsche Considers Keeping The ICE-Powered Macan Alive For Longer | Carscoops

I was expecting it to go . This reversal does not erase the undertones . Look what terry did with the Panamera and Taycan , For 10 years the biggest Panamera complaint was styling . Notice the Taycan is the attractive new face in the lineup. The Panamera also somewhat stalled in updated revisions which led many to feel its dated . Its almost as if there is a deliberate effort to wean the customer off .

You can almost bet that the new EV will be pretty . It will be fast. It will be sterile . The guy who buys it won't see the sterile nature at first but by then they got you .

Look at what Europe did with the diesel . There was a time when that side of the map loved the diesel . So they all went out and bought one . After they all had it reality set in with a good scandal .
Now the diesel , which BTW is decent driving vehicle , is completely out of favor .

It was once so hot. It is now so NOT.

 

[EdwardATX]

The US has stopped being the world's largest auto market for some time now, so we need to take a global lens to this.

The US new car market volume is about half of China's. China is moving to EV quicker than the US is because they don't have as much legacy. Norway, a leading oil exporter, reached 79% EV sales in 2022. The base Macan ICE is a 2.0L I-4, because that happens to be the threshold where road taxes are much higher for larger displacement. We live in a global marketplace, so the only sub-market where US-centric cars make sense are full-size trucks & SUVs.

Re: quality, don't forget that Taycan is Porsche's v1.0 EV effort. People forget the Tesla Roadster was their v1.0 product, and it kinda sucked. Also, Porsche, like the rest of VW Group and all other legacy automakers for that matter, are hardware-centric folks. They don't understand this new world of software-centric vehicles, so naturally, their software sucks. All my Taycan quality problems were related to the PCM. I work for a supplier to Porsche & VW Group, and I can tell you that the Macan EV delays are indeed software-based.

EVs will follow any other tech adoption trend. When did you get your first smartphone? Mine was 2003, a Palm Treo on the then-new Sprint 3G network. Browsing the web was tedious. Apps were very rudimentary. A 2023 smartphone, including the iPhone or Android that your parents now have, has orders of magnitude more computing power than the $xxK Silicon Graphics workstations used to render Jurassic Park & Terminator 2 in the 1990s. Now, no one argues about the virtues of landline phone versus a smartphone.

Re: US government, they forced us onto HD OTA TV by removing VHF & UHF spectrum for analog channels. They forced us onto 3G, then 4G LTE by removing carriers' radio spectrum for 2G and 3G, respectively. Tobacco usage is lower than ever. Public policy works slowly, but it's almost always a net-positive.

@sergeyb -- OK cool, re: 992. It's not for you. The 911 has never been about being for everybody. That's what is great about niche / enthusiast vehicles! I'm happy for choice. I want Porsche to build & sell as many EVs as possible so that governments around the world will leave the 911 alone.
Re: daily driver, yes, the Taycan makes far more sense than a 911. Who likes driving a 400+ HP car with a manual transmission in stop & go traffic? I did that yesterday, and it kinda sucked. At that moment, I wished I had my Taycan 4S with its Traffic Jam Assist. But I'm OK with my choice because I've switched to a vanpool & public transit for my office commute most days. I can save my 911 for days when I actually want to drive for fun.

 

[yrralis1]

@EdwardATX, interesting post on the reasons why you switched from EV to ICE. I just dropped my Taycan for a scheduled transport damage fixes and the dealership gave me a 992 S to drive with 5k miles on it and in short, I do not get it.

I have never owned or driven one, thinking, if I do then I will want one, and now Larry @yrralis1 is highly recommending I do so, so I asked for it today as opportunity presented. They said given my status they can get me one (not the GT3 kind, which would not be anything like that), that surprised me given many years wait everyone else is reporting. A 10-mile drive from the dealership to home was very underwhelming, as I am looking for a smooth/comfy daily driver with fun and power to go around town (lots of round abouts and ramps to do so). Lots of drama with engine noise (not pleasant to my ears in sound, frequency, or vibration feedback), and PDK shifts super quick, but the shifts are felt in the seat, sluggish at low speeds, and the only way to get the power is to keep it revved up which is not possible in slow going around town traffic, even with stretches of longer 60mph roads, and the entire look/shape/feel inside and out felt say classic as to not say old feeling. I guess I am too young and/or too stupid to appreciate this thing (Judd Apatow story comes to mind when he bought one and then returned it right away), so I was thinking to myself, Taycan is just way too much fun to drive, futuristic, looks amazing and nothing with wheels should be doing this, where in this 922 S, I was thinking, I do not get it, certainly not for me for daily driving and for sure not be relaxing for a weekend stroll, which is when I see most of them around town. I felt the same way when they gave me a Cayenne GT, a lot of drama, noise, lots of abrupt power with harsh and jarring ride (22-inch set with summers and they do special toe angle something on it), so getting back in our Cayenne or Macan Turbo was where we belong, which is comfy/fun and sublime in a daily or long-distance cruising, and Taycan is in a totally different league as it comes to daily driving with instant power with no drama, as you feel you are not even touching the ground when passing or carving a corner.

A 10 mile drive is not a real test and normal mode is boring in just about any PDK car . You put the sport or sport plus and take it through a few turns and that car can become a precision driving instrument . It will run circles around your Taycan 4S in any type of handling . The power to weight ratio puts a Taycan at a huge disadvantage . It is dead even even in a drag race which neither are truly drag cars .

With a 911 a person either gets it or he doesn't.

Before you return the car do yourself this favor. Just before redline one can hear the most intoxicating sound of resonance . Its almost as if the car is screaming in excitement just before slamming into the next great only to do it all over again . You can't have this in a Taycan !!! If those sounds and connection. dont thrill you then you just dont get the 911 . For 60 years the car has made its mark on those who do get it though .

 

[yrralis1]

and PDK shifts super quick, but the shifts are felt in the seat, sluggish at low speeds, and the only way to get the power is to keep it revved up .....

I know EV is immediate but the 992 S beat muscle cars like the Zl1 right off the line , although dead even with a Taycan look at how it leaps out in front of the 4S at the jump . Theres nothing sluggish here . See for yourself . Stop the video at 32 sec to see the huge gap ,

 

[santastico]

My best friend has bought a Cayenne Hybrid and a X5 Hybrid. He was so happy to spend a lot of money to have two chargers installed in his garage. Both cars run on electric for maybe 20 miles and then they are done and back to gas. He feels good about that. 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[grim]

This is a reasonable discussion to have concerning the future. One minor point.

Smoking in the US has risen. If you add in vaping, and then add in MJ, it might be higher than the last decade. The trend among the three is UP. But that is not the point here.

True, China is the leading importer, NOT the US and has been for some time. Also true that, per Porsche, the only reason the 718 exists is because of China.

The Porsche 718 Would Not Exist Without China

We spoke with Porsche's sports car boss, Dr. Frank-Steffen Walliser, about the future of the 718 Boxster and Cayman.

www.roadandtrack.com

Regarding the sounds and what @yrralis1 speaks of. Go to a large Porsche meet, not just a small local PCA tour but a gathering. I've seen this over and over again. With maybe 300 cars attending, all of them on display, cars pulling in and out, you quickly see the following.

If an air cooled car 911, any one pulls up, EVERYONE turns their head to see it.

If a water cooled GT3 pulls up, MOST people turn their head to hear that sweet sound of NA 10K

If a water cooled NA pulls up, SOME people turn their head to hear it.

If a water cooled Turbo pulls up, no one cares. The same is true of any Panny or SUV.

Sound does matter to some people

This is an article that argues that the flat 6 is arguably the best engine ever built. One might argue that, a V12 Ferrari might be better. The problem with the turbos is that the turbos mask the sounds. And its the engine sounds, not the exhaust sounds that matter. Thats why some people forego the fake burbles from the PSE, it also masks the engine sounds. The wail IS iconic, for anyone that cares. The torque curve is not flat, like a turbo and the crescendo just builds, and why you want to pull to redline over and over again, with the GT3 cars just SCREAMING.

 

[yrralis1]

This is a reasonable discussion to have concerning the future. One minor point.

Smoking in the US has risen. If you add in vaping, and then add in MJ, it might be higher than the last decade. The trend among the three is UP. But that is not the point here.

True, China is the leading importer, NOT the US and has been for some time. Also true that, per Porsche, the only reason the 718 exists is because of China.

The Porsche 718 Would Not Exist Without China

We spoke with Porsche's sports car boss, Dr. Frank-Steffen Walliser, about the future of the 718 Boxster and Cayman.

www.roadandtrack.com

Regarding the sounds and what @yrralis1 speaks of. Go to a large Porsche meet, not just a small local PCA tour but a gathering. I've seen this over and over again. With maybe 300 cars attending, all of them on display, cars pulling in and out, you quickly see the following.

If an air cooled car 911, any one pulls up, EVERYONE turns their head to see it.

If a water cooled GT3 pulls up, MOST people turn their head to hear that sweet sound of NA 10K

If a water cooled NA pulls up, SOME people turn their head to hear it.

If a water cooled Turbo pulls up, no one cars. The same is true of any Panny or SUV.

Sound does matter to some people

This is an article that argues that the flat 6 is arguably the best engine ever built. One might argue that, a V12 Ferrari might be better. The problem with the turbos is that the turbos mask the sounds. And its the engine sounds, not the exhaust sounds that matter. Thats why some people forego the fake burbles from the PSE, it also masks the engine sounds. The wail IS iconic, for anyone that cares. The torque curve is not flat, like a turbo and the crescendo just builds, and why you want to pull to redline over and over again, with the GT3 cars just SCREAMING.

Remember Pete ? He has a 718 4RS and a V12 Superfast .

Heres a sound clip of the Porsche ,
Porsche GT4RS with BC Fabrications inconel XX pipe tunnel run 🚀

 

[sergeyb]

A 10 mile drive is not a real test and normal mode is boring in just about any PDK car . You put the sport or sport plus and take it through a few turns and that car can become a precision driving instrument . It will run circles around your Taycan 4S in any type of handling . The power to weight ratio puts a Taycan at a huge disadvantage . It is dead even even in a drag race which neither are truly drag cars .

With a 911 a person either gets it or he doesn't.

Before you return the car do yourself this favor. Just before redline one can hear the most intoxicating sound of resonance . Its almost as if the car is screaming in excitement just before slamming into the next great only to do it all over again . You can't have this in a Taycan !!! If those sounds and connection. dont thrill you then you just dont get the 911 . For 60 years the car has made its mark on those who do get it though .

I took time to do what you are saying, went out on a longer drive and out it in Sport and Sport Chassis as this is the max it has (since no AS or SC in the spec), also I tried to go manual and drop a few gears to get the revs going close to the limit. Then it made more noise and more different sounds, but it did not have significantly more instant power I was hoping for when moving say from 40mph to 50mph, it felt like a raging and very angry bull is in the engine compartment, but it just could not stretch its legs, and still felt like it takes too long to rev up before it gets going. The precision around corners and round abouts did not blow me away either, so I returned it and was eager to get back to my zen spaceship Taycan, in which I do not feel its weight around corners. I have a Turbo (see my signature) with all the driving tech offered so it is not a 4S that does feel underpowered for the weight when pushed. I spoke to my SA as he was parking that 992 after I picked up the Taycan and he understood me and said that this is common for the engines with turbos but he said Porsche will not build them without it, so this is where GT3s stand out being NA. So I will stay in my corner and let others be 911 customers, while I enjoy my Taycan driving experience that is second to none for me.

 

[yrralis1]

I took time to do what you are saying, went out on a longer drive and out it in Sport and Sport Chassis as this is the max it has (since no AS or SC in the spec), also I tried to go manual and drop a few gears to get the revs going close to the limit. Then it made more noise and more different sounds, but it did not have significantly more instant power I was hoping for when moving say from 40mph to 50mph, it felt like a raging and very angry bull is in the engine compartment, but it just could not stretch its legs, and still felt like it takes too long to rev up before it gets going. The precision around corners and round abouts did not blow me away either, so I returned it and was eager to get back to my zen spaceship Taycan, in which I do not feel its weight around corners. I have a Turbo (see my signature) with all the driving tech offered so it is not a 4S that does feel underpowered for the weight when pushed. I spoke to my SA as he was parking that 992 after I picked up the Taycan and he understood me and said that this is common for the engines with turbos but he said Porsche will not build them without it, so this is where GT3s stand out being NA. So I will stay in my corner and let others be 911 customers, while I enjoy my Taycan driving experience that is second to none for me.

Answered via PM so as not to go off topic .

 

[///Bruce]

Anyone read what was last month’s edition of Car and Driver? EV of the Year edition. The month before it was ICE of the Year edition. What struck me was the REAL WORLD range of the most popular EV’s. I’ll give you a hint: they collectively suck for range.

 

[EdwardATX]

Remember Pete ? He has a 718 4RS and a V12 Superfast .

Heres a sound clip of the Porsche ,
Porsche GT4RS with BC Fabrications inconel XX pipe tunnel run 🚀

Oh, that definitely gets the hair on the back of my neck tingling!

But I am a car enthusiast like you and most others on this forum. We do not represent the majority of car owners in the US or anywhere around the world.

The figures reported by Jato Dynamics reveal that the Tesla Model Y sold 267,200 units globally in Q1, compared to the 256,400 Corolla and 214,700 RAV4 units sold during the same period.

The average Model Y, RAV4, or Corolla owner could not tell you what kind of motor powers their car beyond "electricity" or "gasoline". So let's not confuse what's good for enthusiasts versus what's good for the mainstream consumer. As stated previously, I am happy for Porsche to sell as many SUVs and/or EVs in order to keep ICE 911's going as long as possible. I don't think this should be a controversial opinion even among this crowd.

Re: dealerships, it's definitely going to be a step-function change for many service departments. Tesla still lacks in customer service, especially compared to luxury marques. But, I suspect their software quality and diagnostic tools are more mature. Porsche dealerships will need to evolve, or else they will become the "desktop PC repair shop" of the automotive world. Right now, the default Taycan diagnostic SOP is to replace, not repair. I hope they'll get to a place where a single faulty battery cell can be field-replaceable (i.e. at the dealership).

 

[yrralis1]

The fairly new Audi dealership near me has a dedicated service bay for EVs. It’s mostly walled off from the rest of the service bays and the techs have to wear special hazmat looking suits to work on them. I’ll have to ask how they feel about it next time I’m there (my really good friend is the general sales manager so it’s fun getting some behind the scenes views).

My local Porsche dealership is moving into a brand new building that should be complete in October so it’ll be interesting to see what their new service department will look like. I’d imagine they’ll have planned for EVs. My service advisor already said he’ll give me a full tour once it’s open.

They clearly have no choice but to do a lot of revisions, but I don’t know if they can match the pace if a car, like the Macan were to become a full EV.

Look at the price of the Taycan . Look at the direction that an EV Macan will price at.. keep in mind I still remember the 55K bass loaner that I drove a couple years ago.

So far there has never been a Porsche SUV, CUV ,or sedan, even hint at becoming a Classic. With all this money being spent into the EV market, do you think there’s even the possibility that this could ever become a classic? I don’t. I feel like they are spinning their wheels and going nowhere with a lot of money. They’re not even really saving the environment. It’s not going to be easy to deal with this kind of service. It’s not going to be cheap to deal with this service.

There once was a time that Porsche built cars hoping they would become legendary. Some of them did . I feel like that has been washed over by this new face that Porsche didn’t even ask for.

 

[EdwardATX]

So far there has never been a Porsche SUV, CUV ,or sedan, even hint at becoming a Classic. With all this money being spent into the EV market, do you think there’s even the possibility that this could ever become a classic?

Well, arguably, very few things are built nowadays with the anticipation that they'll become a "classic" someday. The E1 Cayenne is now part of Porsche Classic, and I don't see many examples running around anymore. An EV, just like most SUVs / CUVs made in the last 20 years, will be disposable once the servicing costs outpace its trade-in value.

Just as a fun thought exercise -- what cars made the year you were born are now considered classics? Excluding any Porsche, Ferrari, or Corvette. I was born during the Malaise Era of cars, so ... none. 😂

 

[grim]

Dont conflate the Porsche Classic Progam with “classics” in the traditional sense.

eg, ALL 987 and 997 cars are now part of Porsche Classic. That only means PAG will ensure parts are available. It does NOT mean any of the cars will ever be considered a classic. Maybe the 997 GT3RS 4.0, 997 Speedster, and 997.2 GT2RS. Maybe the first Boxster Spyder but none of the regular 997 or 987 cars. No one will be queuing up to bid on a 2008 Cayman S as a Classic or 997.2 Targa either.

A Macan EV will become part of Porsche Classic but will never be considered a Classic Car.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_car

A common theme is of an older car of historical interest to be collectible

 

[EdwardATX]

Dont conflate the Porsche Classic Progam with “classics” in the traditional sense.

Yep, fair enough. I don't see 986 Boxsters getting service at the dealership just because they're part of Porsche Classic. It doesn't take long for a repair bill with a $300/hour labor rate to catch up to the KBB value on an early Boxster!

 

[grim]

I need to make an administrative note here. Inevitably, any discussion on the Macan EV ends up with posts concerning the viability of EVs and the issues that surround it. Porsche owners can be passionate about their vehicles. We need to allow rational, reasonable, and responsible discussion on issues that can effect the Macan. But by the same token, we can't go to far off about the more general issue of electric vehicles and head into political territory, not that that has happened yet. I just need to remind everyone about the community standards of

NO political/controversial posts are permitted, except when directly related to the Porsche Macan, for example, new legislation regarding automobiles and climate issues pertaining to the movement to Electric Vehicles

IOW. Nobody is going to win any argument about the development of EVs. Whether you have concerns, love them, hate them, etc, it is what it is. The same is true with oil. So lets focus on the issues at hand. This is all a reasonable discussion. This thread will serve that purpose, for periphery issues surrounding the Macan EV.

thank you

 

[grim]

Yep, fair enough. I don't see 986 Boxsters getting service at the dealership just because they're part of Porsche Classic. It doesn't take long for a repair bill with a $300/hour labor rate to catch up to the KBB value on an early Boxster!

I see many 986s driving around, few 987, 981, or 718. I've repeated many times about TCO and how nobody is going to take a $25K Macan in to a dealer AND the cost of parts only goes up to repair making ownership of an old Macan very difficult without deep pockets. I'm surprised anyone is buying 2015 Macans if they knew how much a new LED headlight cost to repair.

There is going to be some sticker shocked people thinking. "Hey, I just bought a new Porsche for $25K" only to find $4000/$5000 major service bills.

Its one thing to buy a sports car as a toy, drive it, love it, and keep it for a decade as a hobby. Its another thing to do the same for a DD you depend upon to get to work.