Sorry, I was using an analogy. I've been told that seems to be my primary form of communication.

 

I don't see the false equivalence.

Two reasons

The Monks were a medieval, non-profit. They did not require transcribing scrolls to make a living. OTOH, those that build and install aftermarket parts live in a modern, capitalistic market, in the US and DO make their living making money through the work. These are completely different life.

Second, sure the results were books anyone could read, exploding the market for books. There is nothing that says building new EVs explodes the market for cars. Zero. False Equivalence.

Your argument is that a currently viable and vibrant market will suffer because as this moment, we don't see a purpose for aftermarket companies for EV cars since there will be little modifications, so you seem to argue against adopting EVs because it will hurt Fram and other aftermarket companies. My argument is that every big change in society (and ICE to EV is huge) will have winners and it will have losers, That is called creative destruction.

I don't see it as a big change. Its just another fuel source. They are still cars. They all have wheels, radios, bumpers. The only thing that changes is the drivetrain.

There is NOTHING new here. Been there, done that. It's OLD. Electric cars competed with steam and ICE for the first three decades of the 20th century. Mrs. Ford drove an Detroit Electric car. They were for the "rich". See a pattern there? They lost then, as @reguy has noted. They cost too much money. This is OLD news, a rehash. BTW, Mr. Porsche built P1, his First EV back in 1897? It's OLD.

What I meant as an end-game, I don't understand your fundamental vision. You argue that you worry about aftermarket. Ok, so what do you suggest then?

I had a simple question. Post 953

I was serious about my last question. In the end game, where 280M cars are now EVs, is the aftermarket industry dead? Do they need thousands of EEs to "tune" these cars? Or is an entire industry out of business? Or more likely, those that view them as appliances dont care about the aftermarket industry, SEMA, and the like, because you just plug it in and drive, and not modify it to make it your own.

I got no idea.

I suspect those that are interesting in serious mods won't buy EVs. The shade tree mechanics won't either because its either a hobby, to fix cars, or to save money rather than going to a shop.

What is your vision for transport in 10-20 years?

Didn't I just explain that a few posts ago? To repeat, I agree with Toyota

"I believe Toyota is correct. While he is speaking worldwide that there will be 30% penetration, I expect he is correct for the US, IOW someday I can see 93M EVs registers on US roads and they never exceed 33% penetration.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-chairman-doubles-down-electric-111721568.html"

 

It just seems you guys have different interests, which is purely subjective. Some people deeply enjoy their appliances. You just don't enjoy this type of EV 'appliance' because it has no traditional engine to mod (among other complaints). Yet in my eyes there are plenty of other things to mod. Is it difficult to understand that other people have other interests you don't like? If you don't like it because there's not enough aftermarket parts to your liking, simply stay away.

 

It’s more than the reason you mention, but I’ll be happy to steer clear as long as attractive alternatives, such as the ice Macan, remain available.

 

fyi

MB Reverses Global EV STRATEGY …

 

Maybe not reverse, but delay on (missing) demand.

...as seen in HeiseNews

 

@sergeyb maybe you can speak to some of this with your Taycan
@ericsan13 the 15 Amp charging bit below might be of great interest below because it EXPLICTLY recommended by Porsche, in a TSB, for emergency use only

I'm been doing some reading and if anyone is interested in the EV Macan, you might want to do some research cause I learned a bit about the Taycan charging issues below

Good discussion on what's needed. I totally agree with this guy and said this earlier in this thread, if you believe in an electric future, you aint going to have one EV so if you got to upgrade, then plan for ALL your cars as EV. You don't want that electrician coming out twice.

School Me On Home Charging - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

Taycan - School Me On Home Charging - Thinking about a Taycan again and my head is swimming with all the charging lingo. Hoping someone can simplify it for my little ant brain. What do I need to get level 2 charging at home? An EVSE on a 220 line with 50 amps? Does Porsche sell the equipment...

rennlist.com

Scary, dont buy cheap stuff, get industrial quality everything. There is a LOT of power flowing.

School Me On Home Charging - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

Taycan - School Me On Home Charging - Thinking about a Taycan again and my head is swimming with all the charging lingo. Hoping someone can simplify it for my little ant brain. What do I need to get level 2 charging at home? An EVSE on a 220 line with 50 amps? Does Porsche sell the equipment...

rennlist.com

His companion pieces, all good reads and a ton of information in here

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/us-over-the-top-the-well-equipped-ev-home-garage…for-those-that-wish-to-over-do-it-….2343/

[North America] - Porsche Official Charging Related Porsche NTSB Article - analysis

Porsche seems to be wising up - this is mostly across the board good excellent information and I agree with 99% of it - very interesting that Porsche is now recommending AGAINST using L1 charging with their charger for daily use or for more than 12 hours this is a huge step forward in educating...

www.taycanforum.com

So it appears the Porsche chargers had issue, wires not thick enough, and they aint cheap. This resulting in a class action suit? But the good stuff is in the Porsche TSBs at the NHTSA site that the original threads reference

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2022/MC-10222530-0001.pdf and

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2023/MC-10231403-0001.pdf

They recommend getting industrial strength plugs. Those Hubbell plugs are $135 on Amazon. and this bit

The “domestic” (125V) supply cable is provided for emergency use only, and should not be used by customers for daily home charging.

110V Charging is for emergency use only. The relatively high current (8A to 10A) loads household circuits and receptacles for an extremely long time with minimal charge gain.

The thread author goes into why and I agree 100%. I believe the code is something like if a circuit is on for 3 hours the draw can't be more than 80%, hence the 50 amp circuit for a 40 amp draw. A residential 15 amp plug cost >$6 at Home Depot. The point seems to be it can't handle the load, day in, day out for a measly 30 miles or so of range. Both PCNA and the author got a point.

Think about what draws power in your house. You got any 15 amp circuits pulling 12 amps for 12 hours/day? Any? The only thing I can think of is an electric furnace and that's not a plug but hardwired. Otherwise, nothing.

For anyone interested, those are good reads with WAY too much detail for my brain. And that's a problem. There are far too many chargers, far too many plugs, far too many types of circuits, and far too many headaches with everyone having a different issue from the easy, low hanging fruit, to service upgrades 😞 involving trenching and far, far more complicated. And think of the future, not just today. This is not ready for prime time. Using the Tesla standard is a start but they got a LONG way to go. And that class action lawsuit would seem to indicate something was rushed?

 

Maybe those who are not interested in the Macan EV can leave the rest of us here alone? We've seen enough comments that are just EV bashing or cherry picking bad advice to make a point that is irrelevant and all this noise makes this forum pretty much useless. I for one am done here, thanks.

 

@grim, I am happy to speak to all of the above, with a short answer is to just make it simple, which is what I did with none of the issues above apply to me, which is what I would recommend as ideal state to any prospective Macan EV owner, and I am happy to answer any questions regarding the lingo and charging measures.

Home Electrical Panel: 60Amp circuit needed as output to the EVSE (car charger)
EVSE: Accepts 60Amp input and per code gives 50Amp (80%) output to the car.
EVSE: Simplest way is direct and immediately next to the Home Electrical panel
EVSE: Most have 25ft cord that is enough to reach any 2 cars in a 2-car garage.
Car side: 11kW standard on-board charger needs 50Amp input.
Car side: 19.2kW optional which has limited use requiring 100Amp house circuit.
Charging: Plug the cord into the car in the evening and it charges while you sleep to recommended 85% for daily use.

Home Electrical Panel > EVSE > 25ft cord to the car as shown below.
Zero issues in 8 months and 5k miles.
Point: No need to complicate with Hubble circuits and Porsche provided cords.

 

@grim, I am happy to speak to all of the above, with a short answer is to just make it simple, which is what I did with none of the issues above apply to me, which is what I would recommend as ideal state to any prospective Macan EV owner, and I am happy to answer any questions regarding the lingo and charging measures.

Home Electrical Panel: 60Amp circuit needed as output to the EVSE (car charger)
EVSE: Accepts 60Amp input and per code gives 50Amp (80%) output to the car.
EVSE: Simplest way is direct and immediately next to the Home Electrical panel
EVSE: Most have 25ft cord that is enough to reach any 2 cars in a 2-car garage.
Car side: 11kW standard on-board charger needs 50Amp input.
Car side: 19.2kW optional which has limited use requiring 100Amp house circuit.
Charging: Plug the cord into the car in the evening and it charges while you sleep to recommended 85% for daily use.

Home Electrical Panel > EVSE > 25ft cord to the car as shown below.
Zero issues in 8 months and 5k miles.
Point: No need to complicate with Hubble circuits and Porsche provided cords.
View attachment 281480

Thanks @sergeyb for the explanation 👍

 

“Apple Kills Its Electric Car Project”

This has been widely reported today. Apparently, there was concern that the car would not be profitable.

After a decade of stops and starts, Apple kills its electric car project

 

“Apple Kills Its Electric Car Project”

There will be layoffs
$10B invested over 10 years

 

Apparently State Farm doesn't like EV .
South Florida driver part of class action suit claiming State Farm wasn’t there for them; failed to foot repair bills

 

Yes, hybrid may make more sense instead of going cold turkey.

Toyota was right about hybrid cars all along

 

Yes, hybrid may make more sense instead of going cold turkey.

Toyota was right about hybrid cars all along

Not all hybrids are alike though . Many drive like a giant Prius . BMW did a good Jon with the X3M40 but is their step before going plug in like Porsche . The hybrid Cayenne does require a minimal of once a month charging for Porsche won't honor the warranty . Even worse is that all hybrids of kept long term will need to replace the battery at some point .

Ice Ice Baby !!

 

Now we’re talking, whoosh 🤯, roadster Will Porsche try to compete?

Elon Musk Claims The New Tesla Roadster Hits 60 MPH In Less Than One Second

Elon Musk announced on X the new Tesla Roadster will premiere in late 2024, with deliveries to start in 2025.

www.motor1.com

 

Probably his shareholders will again show him his limits, but the spirit is of course most welcome. Again he focuses on what BEVs can do best, which is acceleration. Looks like he wants to beat the new Taycan specs.

 

Please remember anything “environment” is off table. Discussion removed.

 

“How EVs became such a massive disappointment”

How EVs became such a massive disappointment | CNN Business

 

It begins …

Electric-Vehicle Startup Fisker Prepares for Possible Bankruptcy Filing
Company has struggled with growing its sales amid stagnant EV demand in the U.S.

CNBC

EV euphoria is dead. Automakers are scaling back or delaying their electric vehicle plans

Automakers from Ford and GM to Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen and Aston Martin are scaling back or delaying their electric vehicle plans.

www.cnbc.com

After significant interest from early EV adopters … the automotive industry … overestimated the willingness of consumers to adopt a new technology … The adoption curve of EVs rapidly went through first adopters and some “EV curious” consumers, but has been a tougher sell with mainstream buyers.

and it gets worse

EV Charge Station Maker Charge Enterprises Files Bankruptcy

 

It begins …

Electric-Vehicle Startup Fisker Prepares for Possible Bankruptcy Filing
Company has struggled with growing its sales amid stagnant EV demand in the U.S.

CNBC

And its gone

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/18/investing/electric-car-maker-fisker-bankruptcy/index.html

Fisker Group Inc. Files for Chapter 11

Fisker Group Inc. (“Fisker”), the operating subsidiary of Fisker Inc., today announced that it filed for Chapter 11 protection in the District of Delaware on...

www.businesswire.com

 

This seems relvant, much info in here

https://www.automobilwoche.de/bc-online/bilanz-fur-2023-porsche-rechnet-mit-weniger-profitabilitat

 

Looks like some kind of electric lock-in situation for VAG, probably incl. Porsche, though Blume said elsewhere he was happy with initial Macan EV order volume...seeing a year of the bean counters ahead...which will certainly impact ICE offerings as well...besides progress in EV technology...

FAZ - Dilemma of VW-Boss Blume


...better watch this to keep up the moral next Starship launch at 7:00 a.m. CT

 

FAZ - Dilemma of VW-Boss Blume

What does it mean about Emden separated?

 

From my perspective, watching the Taycan UK video above and thinking about procuring an EV as 2nd (smaller) car, you have to lease one to avoid the manifold risks of deprivation, compared to a cash purchase.

- Is there any indication about higher lease rates for EVs already visible on the market, which reflect the current EV discussion?

 

CEO steps down after being hit with expensive EV repairs and low resale prices following purchase of 100,000 Teslas | Fortune

Stephen Scherr ran Hertz for just over two years before stepping down on Friday.

fortune.com

Hertz Global Holdings Inc. is replacing its chief executive officer in the wake of a disastrous bet on electric vehicles that the company began unwinding in recent months.

Sixt to Phase Out Teslas From Rental Car Fleet on Poor Resale Value

Sixt SE is phasing out Tesla Inc. electric cars from its fleet after the manufacturer’s heavy price cuts hurt residual values at Europe’s biggest car-rental company.

www.bloomberg.com

 

Besides it looks like Sixt holding a grudge against Tesla for their recent price reduction (after they signed with Tesla...and probably ruining Sixt's BC...), there were two very interesting side remarks in the press:

- Sixt also complained about high maintenance cost for EVs! I am really interested what they mean with that. This contradicts clearly with the common understanding of EVs having low maintenance requirements???...The only hint I found was poor availability for EV spare parts (e. g. after accidents, causing long outages)
and
- Sixt wants to continue EV procurement on a high level, despite of the above.

 

Lease a Taycan anyone? Saw a Porsche ad for a lease deal on in stock Taycans of up to $15k “match offer” towards the lease plus the $7,500 lease tax credit.

 

“Ford Slows Its Push Into Electric Vehicles”

"The automaker said it would delay new battery-powered models and shift its focus to hybrid cars, sales of which are rising faster."

source below
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/04/business/ford-delays-electric-vehicles.html?smid=em-share

 

Congratulations but I’ll pass too many updates in the future the first Taycan owners are taking a bath.

 

Congratulations but I’ll pass too many updates in the future the first Taycan owners are taking a bath.

Depreciation is of course a concern, but the Taycan was an expensive first gen product with a niche market. Macan is Porsche's best selling vehicle, and coupled with the more modest price point means a larger pool of buyers (both new and used).

The ICE Macan is done in the EU (and nearly done here) so I think the fact that Porsche feels confident enough in their tech to switch their top-seller to EV says a lot about how good this car is going to be.

 

EV Ownership Ticks Up, but Fewer Nonowners Want to Buy One

More U.S. adults now than a year ago say they own an electric vehicle, but more also say they would not consider buying one.

news.gallup.com

The results are based on a March 1-20 Gallup poll. The findings conform with recent decisions by some auto companies to reduce their electric-vehicle investments after EV market growth has fallen short of expectations. … Gallup data confirm that the U.S. market for electric vehicle ownership remains fairly limited,

If you want to understand what “some” of the public thinks, this is The Hill’s article on the Gallup Poll. Read the comments, over 1,500, to see the different perspectives of the poll. You have to click on View Comments

https://www.yahoo.com/news/more-us-wouldn-t-consider-132222346.html

 

Depreciation is of course a concern, but the Taycan was an expensive first gen product with a niche market. Macan is Porsche's best selling vehicle, and coupled with the more modest price point means a larger pool of buyers (both new and used).

The ICE Macan is done in the EU (and nearly done here) so I think the fact that Porsche feels confident enough in their tech to switch their top-seller to EV says a lot about how good this car is going to be.

All manufacturers have to meet certain MPG targets and the only way to do that is a product mix that includes EVs. Transitioning a high volume model like Macan to EV makes sense for that reason.

Porsche makes great cars and I hope the EV Macan maintains that tradition. But even if it does I’m not a buyer at this time. IMO buyers of the first EV Macans are going to experience dramatic depreciation.