[Footie]

It’s not an alternative. They have no choice. Apartment, townhome and rental properties are ‘no-goes’ for EV owners or those who would like to own an EV. It’s not practical for them.

Unfortunately Joe Public don’t want to pay more for their housing to add such things as EV charging or improved electrics to accommodate it in the future, this is a fact of life we all want it as cheap as we can get it. When we extended our business I had to pay myself for the electrical substation to be upgraded to take the load we required, this won’t be paid off in a year it’s an investment over several years and maybe potential EV customers should look at the cost to add a charger in the same manner, making that switch to EV isn’t just for their next car but future cars beyond it.

But I know the US is a different animal to here in the UK and you have issues with your electricity supply that we don’t experience to the same extent.

 

[///Bruce]

Unfortunately Joe Public don’t want to pay more for their housing to add such things as EV charging or improved electrics to accommodate it in the future, this is a fact of life we all want it as cheap as we can get it. When we extended our business I had to pay myself for the electrical substation to be upgraded to take the load we required, this won’t be paid off in a year it’s an investment over several years and maybe potential EV customers should look at the cost to add a charger in the same manner, making that switch to EV isn’t just for their next car but future cars beyond it.

But I know the US is a different animal to here in the UK and you have issues with your electricity supply that we don’t experience to the same extent.

The only people I know who drive ev's are people that can afford to live in a home. Meaning, they have garages. Single family homes. Not multi-family structures as I mentioned. What I believe you might be trying to refer to is that it's the 'responsibility' of Joe Citizen to modify their homes to have the luxury to charge at night in the safety and security of their locked garages. That costs money, as you pointed out. So, I want to be a good citizen and 'save the environment'. I go drop a bunch of coin on an ev that I know will not get the range the manufacturers claim and then drop more coin to install a 220v line in my home to allow for a faster charge overnight. To what end? After a few years, the battery or parts of it need replacing (dead cells). More coin. Should I be 'lucky enough' to live in the Chicago area now what? mileage drops to nothing. Your ev vehicle needs to be towed. But now, the batteries are completely dead. More coin....

My entire career was spent in the IT world. You don't come up with an idea and force it onto the public without having a robust back end to support the idea. The 'Concept' of ev's is great. Truly. But there was not enough of a fast-charging ev support system nationwide. The batteries are essentially NiCad battereis that are, by default, fire risks and frankly suck for long term use. Remember all those NiCad battereis we used 20 years ago that required special chargers and over time held less and less of a charge? I do. For now, I say no. I will not be looking at a Macan ev or any other ev vehicle any time soon.

 

[Footie]

The only people I know who drive ev's are people that can afford to live in a home. Meaning, they have garages. Single family homes. Not multi-family structures as I mentioned. What I believe you might be trying to refer to is that it's the 'responsibility' of Joe Citizen to modify their homes to have the luxury to charge at night in the safety and security of their locked garages. That costs money, as you pointed out. So, I want to be a good citizen and 'save the environment'. I go drop a bunch of coin on an ev that I know will not get the range the manufacturers claim and then drop more coin to install a 220v line in my home to allow for a faster charge overnight.

I don’t know what the average home price is in the US so can’t comment on whether the cost to adapt to EV home charging is a significant price percentage wise or not. But either way I do think it’s up to governments to help this transition to EV. The thing I don’t get is why does all AC home charger need a 220v supply, you look at appliances all over the world, washing machines, dishwashers microwaves etc and each are adapted to the supply current of that country, here in Europe that’s 220-240v and in the US it’s 110v, I’m no electrician but why can’t they adapt EV chargers the same way as everything else?

To what end? After a few years, the battery or parts of it need replacing (dead cells). More coin. Should I be 'lucky enough' to live in the Chicago area now what? mileage drops to nothing. Your ev vehicle needs to be towed. But now, the batteries are completely dead. More coin....

Wait, you are telling me that these Tesla cars that are stuck at these supercharge stations need new batteries because they are completely dead?

My entire career was spent in the IT world. You don't come up with an idea and force it onto the public without having a robust back end to support the idea. The 'Concept' of ev's is great. Truly. But there was not enough of a fast-charging ev support system nationwide. The batteries are essentially NiCad battereis that are, by default, fire risks and frankly suck for long term use. Remember all those NiCad battereis we used 20 years ago that required special chargers and over time held less and less of a charge? I do. For now, I say no. I will not be looking at a Macan ev or any other ev vehicle any time soon.

As someone who took the plunge and bought an EV I can tell you that without a doubt it’s brilliant, the way they drive and their responsiveness it incredible but you do need a home charger be that attached to your home or if you live in a condo then where you park every night, only then will you get it and why we absolutely love them.

I don’t agree with the way it’s being forced on both manufacturers and the public, like I have already said the infrastructure for public charging isn’t what it needs to be but to be honest it’s not the solution anyway, only with home charging does EV make sense.

In the past I always bought my cars outright but with my future EVs I will be either going the PCP route or leasing, I want a guaranteed payment scheme and if PCP a preset figure of what the car is worth at the end of my scheme. So whilst you say you don’t want an EV because you are worried about battery lifespan I say leasing the car of a 3-4 years and hand back or PCP it and hand it back, either way you aren’t stuck.

 

[grim]

Early adopter: A person who begins using a product or service at or around the time it becomes available.

This will get long but looks dive deeper in to this. First, the COLD.

Perhaps because of ideology or hobby or its thrilling, but a common trait of early adopters is to chase technology. Please make sure we use common definitions.

EV means a pure electric vehicle, no hybrids. EV advocates LOVE to add in hybrids.

Number of cars is number of registrations, NOT number sold in a year. A 50% increase of nothing is still nothing. If you want buy-in, you got to get the masses to buy in, that said, lets dive deeper into this. First, the current big headline, “cold bad”

Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

The reasons do not matter. People read it and will write it off. This headline is everywhere. Just like "Xerox" means copy and “google” means search. "Tesla" means EV.

‘It’s kind of like, I don’t really want a Tesla.’

Anyone who ever used a battery in the cold knows they suck in the cold. I got a weather station with a battery, and I wake up to a DEAD battery. Its too cold. My Lithium jump starter? I take it out to charge it and Beep beep beep, its too cold. That’s USELESS. When you need it the most, it fails.

But EV early adopters say charge at home is the way to go. Its been repeated here endlessly. But that’s not real life. From SBGLOBAL, a survey in Nov from US, UK, and other countries. You can read it.

Affordability tops charging and range concerns in slowing EV demand

Although battery-electric vehicles are getting closer to price parity with their internal combustion siblings, the affordability factor is the main reason consumers are holding back on adopting electrification, according to a recent survey by S&P Global Mobility.

www.spglobal.com

51% of EV owners have a charger at home. Let that sink in. Just 51%?

and 42% typically use it?????? It goes further to say that while the Advocates push this, in reality, it’s the MINORITY.



Why didn't the Chicago EV owners charge at home? Maybe because they don't have one?

 

[grim]

Now lets talk Early Adopters, what does it really mean? From Exro, a battery tech company in CA.

Early Adopters of Electric Vehicles: The EV Adoption Curve

Early adopters of electric vehicles are the 2nd adopter group on the EV adoption curve as per Diffusion of Innovations theory for electric car innovations.

www.exro.com

It shows the normal curve, which they define to be the first 2.5% are innovators, and this means ALL CAR REGISTRATIONS, then the NEXT 13.5% are Early Adopters, and THEN the main stream, the majority. Finally the laggards. At 1% the US is stil in the innovation stage. The ONLY country in early adoption is Norway at 25%.

BTW, where did this curve come from? Here

Online MPH and Teaching Public Health | SPH

sphweb.bumc.bu.edu

I think that’s a bit harsh because I said the US was at late stage early adopters but these people are in the business and the US is just in the innovation stage. What does this mean? Well ...

Buyers Remorse, you can read it ourself, in CA, 20% are bailing out. Of all places, they want out for whatever their reasons might be

Buyer’s Remorse: Why Are 20% Of Early EV Adopters Now Defecting to Internal Combustion?

Is our honeymoon with the EV finally over? And what is truly the most environmentally-friendly technology?

www.motorbiscuit.com

It also means that early adopters accept the hassle. Its like Porsche and Value Based pricing. Today its crazy to pay the prices Porsche charges for options that come “free” on much cheaper Japanese cars, yet, people, myself included, do? Why? Because I want a Porsche. And early adopters wants an EV. The article lists lots of pain the early adopters go through and three years is about the cycle time so leasing is more attractive than owning. The tech is just evolving to fast.

Buying An EV In 2022 Makes You An Early Adopter, And That's OK

And more on Reliability, Early Adopters accept the problems, the masses will not

Early EV Adopters Forgive Reliability Problems; What About When We All Have One?

Consumer Reports agrees, reliability is the worst

EVs Are Getting More Reliable, but They Still Lag Behind Hybrids and Gas-Only Cars - Consumer Reports

Consumer Reports shares insights about how electric vehicles (EVs) and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) compare against traditional cars in reliability, based on owner surveys.

www.consumerreports.org

“ EVs ranked last for dependability and customer expectations for reliability, and they have the highest complaint rate”

“EVs buyers are still relatively early adopters, … likely to be ready to forgive some problems.

But early adopters don't care. Their priorities are NOT the same as the masses, the appliance buyers.

 

[grim]

We are no where NEAR moving out of early adoption. Lets look at some mainstream articles, not EV blogs or the EV haters. First, AXIOS

https://www.axios.com/2023/08/09/electric-cars-adoption-rates

The early “majority” is elusive. THEY CAN’T SELL THE CARS. It then lists all the things like Ford and GM stopping and “Toyota was right” In the end? “It's still early in the game for electric vehicles”

Business Insider

The EV plateau is coming. It's bad news for companies like Ford and Tesla.

“as the industry runs out of enthusiastic early adopters” The first signs of that came last month when Ford dealers told Insider they had to turn away Mustang Mach-E allocations.

The EV transition trips over its own cord

The early adopters have all, well, adopted. And everyone else isn’t feeling that willing to take risks in their car buying, said Jessica Caldwell, director of insights at Edmunds.

https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/heres-the-full-story-behind-electric-vehicle-adoption

“The U.S. consumer, several car dealers recently told TheStreet, is just not yet ready for fully electric vehicles. The adoption curve, they said, has stalled somewhere between the early adopters and the masses. And there's no timeline on when the masses might begin to embrace electrification”

Which brings us to this letter. THOUSANDS of US dealers, across all brands, wrote POTUS and basically said “STOP”, consumers will not accept EVs on your schedule.

https://evvoiceofthecustomer.com

Read it yourself and of course its professional written but the essence is simple.

Forget about it. Our consumers don’t want EVs. They rot on the lots. The goals are admirable but if the consumers don’t accept them, then its over. They will come when the time is right. You can’t push this, it happens when it happens.

There are many, many more discussions but basically, I now concur with EXRO. US sales are in the innovation stage. The name Tesla is now synonymous with “EV”. Norway might have moved onto the mainstream but the US really isn’t even in the early adoption of the technology stage. Although we see it in the news a lot, IRL, I see FEW EVs, very few. I see empty chargers in Walmart lots. Even CA has a tiny percentage of EVs. And so read the EXRO curve and I get it now. Its VERY immature and like other technologies will take decades to mature.

Just look at photo sensors. The first 1 MB sensors were primitive and there is way no film would be replaced with digital. 25 years later, an iPhone sensor is good enough for 99% of people’s cameras functions, but it took more than two decades for that to happen. A car is FAR more complex. It will take many decades.

Just my opinion, but definitely in the early adopter stage, or innovation stage if you accept that definition. Its no where near mainstream acceptance and the Chicago cold thing just made it worse, regardless of the reason.

One last thing, from the US gov

https://www.anl.gov/sites/www/files/2023-12/Total Sales for Website_November 2023.pdf

The number of EV, that is BEV, is increasing, 20%, 50%, but 50% of nothing is still nothing and journalists know this but love to throw out statistics.

It INCREASED 50%! Yeah So Year over Year Nov 23, from Nov 22 70 to 90K. That’s really good. 28.5 INCREASE in ONE YEAR

In reality, its just another 20K cars, which is a pittance. Statistics. You gotta love them.

 

[grim]

This is CNBC, the financial news. EVs are rotting on the lots

 

[Footie]

This will get long but looks dive deeper in to this. First, the COLD.

Perhaps because of ideology or hobby or its thrilling, but a common trait of early adopters is to chase technology. Please make sure we use common definitions.

EV means a pure electric vehicle, no hybrids. EV advocates LOVE to add in hybrids.

Number of cars is number of registrations, NOT number sold in a year. A 50% increase of nothing is still nothing. If you want buy-in, you got to get the masses to buy in, that said, lets dive deeper into this. First, the current big headline, “cold bad”

Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

The reasons do not matter. People read it and will write it off. This headline is everywhere. Just like "Xerox" means copy and “google” means search. "Tesla" means EV.

‘It’s kind of like, I don’t really want a Tesla.’

Anyone who ever used a battery in the cold knows they suck in the cold. I got a weather station with a battery, and I wake up to a DEAD battery. Its too cold. My Lithium jump starter? I take it out to charge it and Beep beep beep, its too cold. That’s USELESS. When you need it the most, it fails.

But EV early adopters say charge at home is the way to go. Its been repeated here endlessly. But that’s not real life. From SBGLOBAL, a survey in Nov from US, UK, and other countries. You can read it.

Affordability tops charging and range concerns in slowing EV demand

Although battery-electric vehicles are getting closer to price parity with their internal combustion siblings, the affordability factor is the main reason consumers are holding back on adopting electrification, according to a recent survey by S&P Global Mobility.

www.spglobal.com

51% of EV owners have a charger at home. Let that sink in. Just 51%?

and 42% typically use it?????? It goes further to say that while the Advocates push this, in reality, it’s the MINORITY.



Why didn't the Chicago EV owners charge at home? Maybe because they don't have one?

May I answer this, I am speaking to quite a few electricians who are installing home chargers here in the UK around my area and as someone who is looking for a new EV I have been speaking to quite a few dealers for all the premium brands, all of their sales are accompanied with a home charger not a single one has been sold without that customer adding a charger. But you have to remember that a home charger in the UK even including fitting is less than £800 so why wouldn’t you add a charger especially when charging over night can cost as little as 10-15p per KW compared to an average price at a charger station of 65-70p per KW.

I think the percentage of 51% will increase year on year because Tesla no longer have the market to themselves and we all know they sold their EVs with free charging at their charger station for years so no need for a home charger.

 

[ericsan13]

It's missing the fundamental issue here, the use of battery! Home appliances are very different from EV concept, we don't travel with Water Heater, Hot Hub or A/C in 3 seconds from 0-60 do we? True, the fire hazard can happen to any appliance, but it's the battery that's difficult to contain in case of fire, regardless how good the L2 charger worked.

Let's suppose every potential EV owner formed a community group, extends every EV home charging externally as a community charging hot spot (outside of garage, condo, or designated charging spot, within acceptable regulation or financial incentive), enable random EV to stop by and charge in the entire nation's road map by filling the gaps on lack of charging stations, the power generation still won't scale to support large number of EV, let alone many areas are already under power shortage, required periodic rolling blackouts.

Solid State battery in the work to potentially "reduce" the battery fire hazard (notice it's not eliminating fire hazard entirely as it's still using battery technology).

Will Solid-State Batteries Eliminate the Need for EV Fire Protection? | Electric Vehicles Research

Thermal runaway and the associated battery fires have proven to be a critical concern for customers, battery designers, and electric vehicle manufacturers. Many vehicles have experienced battery fires and hundreds of thousands have been recalled.

www.electricvehiclesresearch.com

If renewable energy is such a concern, electricity is not the only option as mentioned by others here. Porsche may switch to Plan-B if consumers shrug away from EV:

eFuels: Synthetic fuel from renewable energy sources

Sustainability at Porsche has many facets. In this ‘Perspectives on Sustainability’ interview series, Porsche employees talk about sustainability from the perspective of their respective fields of expertise. Team Lead Karl Dums talks about the future of eFuels in the automotive industry.

newsroom.porsche.com

Can we say the same for applying battery technology to power a jet or shipping vessel? Either it won't fly or float due to its own weight!

Instead of asking why the EV-hate, why not ask if there are other alternative renewable energy options that are more sensible to support existing and future transportation model?

I think the fundamental issue is where you stand on the whole EV fire issue. I have already established that "According to information from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and EVFireSafe, 1 out of every 1,000 Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicles catch fire, where only 1 out of 83,333 EVs catch fire. This is a significant difference." This is why I say there is there is EV-hate.

Yes the potential fire hazard is still there but overtime fire fighters will be more equipped to handle them like they have equipped themselves to handle just about any sort of fire, gasoline included.

Let's also not forget that just about everyone carries a cell phone (among the many other devices) with them at all times with a lithium ion battery, the same tech in a car on a smaller scale. So why harp on EVs burning up at home? Batteries don't spontaneously explode, there has to be some sort of catalyst.

Solid state battery is coming and I don't know much about it, but if it is a good alternative we should go there, which I think we are. In the meantime we have our traditional EVs.

 

[ericsan13]

Don't forget, you originally cited the USDOE report, not me (post 332). You did so in response to my reference of the Consumer Reports article (post 331), which you now state is more accurate.
Thank you.

Yup, if you read carefully I am saying that the newer 2023 consumer reports is accurate for EV. USDOE is based on estimates. However the USDOE report is the best thing I could find about range degradation for ICE. I am not contradicting myself, really!

 

[Glock19]

The problem with electric vehicles is they are likely to catch fire when you are charging them. And for many people that’s going to be in their garage and the **** thing is going to set your house on fire while you’re sleeping.

Everybody in my California neighborhood that has an electric vehicle has an extension cord and they are charging the **** thing in the street.

 

[ericsan13]

This will get long but looks dive deeper in to this. First, the COLD.

Perhaps because of ideology or hobby or its thrilling, but a common trait of early adopters is to chase technology. Please make sure we use common definitions.

EV means a pure electric vehicle, no hybrids. EV advocates LOVE to add in hybrids.

Number of cars is number of registrations, NOT number sold in a year. A 50% increase of nothing is still nothing. If you want buy-in, you got to get the masses to buy in, that said, lets dive deeper into this. First, the current big headline, “cold bad”

Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

The reasons do not matter. People read it and will write it off. This headline is everywhere. Just like "Xerox" means copy and “google” means search. "Tesla" means EV.

‘It’s kind of like, I don’t really want a Tesla.’

Anyone who ever used a battery in the cold knows they suck in the cold. I got a weather station with a battery, and I wake up to a DEAD battery. Its too cold. My Lithium jump starter? I take it out to charge it and Beep beep beep, its too cold. That’s USELESS. When you need it the most, it fails.

But EV early adopters say charge at home is the way to go. Its been repeated here endlessly. But that’s not real life. From SBGLOBAL, a survey in Nov from US, UK, and other countries. You can read it.

Affordability tops charging and range concerns in slowing EV demand

Although battery-electric vehicles are getting closer to price parity with their internal combustion siblings, the affordability factor is the main reason consumers are holding back on adopting electrification, according to a recent survey by S&P Global Mobility.

www.spglobal.com

51% of EV owners have a charger at home. Let that sink in. Just 51%?

and 42% typically use it?????? It goes further to say that while the Advocates push this, in reality, it’s the MINORITY.



Why didn't the Chicago EV owners charge at home? Maybe because they don't have one?

Yes I definitely agree it is a trait of early adopters, but not the definition of early adopters, which is why I included the definition.

I was referring to the number of registrations per year, not the total number of EVs out there. Total number of EVs is still low but growing. Like you said, 13 years average ownership. Therefore registrations per year will be a better indication of whether EVs can dominate the market.

Looks like we found conflicting data about charging at home based on my earlier post: "Home charging is a significant part of the electric vehicle (EV)1 ownership experience, with 88% of owners who say they charge their vehicle at home “often” or “always.” from JDPowers. One thing to note is that the spglobal data source includes Brazil, India, Thailand, and mainland China. I would wager the ability to charge from home is less common there.

Also most people don't need to install a charger at home. They can just plug into their regular wall 120V or if they are fortunate, they have a 240V utility plug. Like I said, even I use my slow 120V charger 95% of the time.

Can't tell you why Chicago EV owners didn't prepare better. But their problem was compounded because Tesla led them (en mass) to a non-functioning charging stations when their battery was low.

 

[ericsan13]

The problem with electric vehicles is they are likely to catch fire when you are charging them. And for many people that’s going to be in their garage and the **** thing is going to set your house on fire while you’re sleeping.

Everybody in my California neighborhood that has an electric vehicle has an extension cord and they are charging the **** thing in the street.

Do you have data that supports this?

 

[Glock19]

Do you have data that supports this?

That’s literally how a battery works. That’s when this most likely to heat up and catch fire is when you are either charging it or rapidly discharging it.

 

[Footie]

I think the fundamental issue is where you stand on the whole EV fire issue. I have already established that "According to information from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and EVFireSafe, 1 out of every 1,000 Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicles catch fire, where only 1 out of 83,333 EVs catch fire. This is a significant difference." This is why I say there is there is EV-hate.

Yes the potential fire hazard is still there but overtime fire fighters will be more equipped to handle them like they have equipped themselves to handle just about any sort of fire, gasoline included.

Let's also not forget that just about everyone carries a cell phone (among the many other devices) with them at all times with a lithium ion battery, the same tech in a car on a smaller scale. So why harp on EVs burning up at home? Batteries don't spontaneously explode, there has to be some sort of catalyst.

Solid state battery is coming and I don't know much about it, but if it is a good alternative we should go there, which I think we are. In the meantime we have our traditional EVs.

Lithium ion batteries are in just about everything and yet we all have them and they are either sat in our pockets or on the table. When I think about the amount of lithium ion battery devices I have owned over the years and never had a single issue with any of them, no spontaneous combustion, in fact I don’t know of it happening to anyone I know, maybe they are safer than these fake news reports would have us believe. LOL

I think those EV-haters you will never convince, they will continue to throw up a reason why they don’t want to switch to one…. which I don’t have a problem with, if they don’t want one then don’t buy one because there are plenty other cars on sale to chose from, in fact far more than there are EVs.

 

[Robert M]

I think those EV-haters you will never convince, they will continue to throw up a reason why they don’t want to switch to one…. which I don’t have a problem with, if they don’t want one then don’t buy one because there are plenty other cars on sale to chose from, in fact far more than there are EVs.

Their perception is their reality.

 

[grim]

Yes I definitely agree it is a trait of early adopters, but not the definition of early adopters, which is why I included the definition.

I was referring to the number of registrations per year, not the total number of EVs out there. Total number of EVs is still low but growing. Like you said, 13 years average ownership. Therefore registrations per year will be a better indication of whether EVs can dominate the market.

Total registration is the only thing that matters if you want a "green" economy. 50% of nothing is nothing. Those numbers are only used for marketing purposes.

Look at us! We increase 50% year to year. just advertising.

Looks like we found conflicting data about charging at home based on my earlier post: "Home charging is a significant part of the electric vehicle (EV)1 ownership experience, with 88% of owners who say they charge their vehicle at home “often” or “always.” from JDPowers. One thing to note is that the spglobal data source includes Brazil, India, Thailand, and mainland China. I would wager the ability to charge from home is less common there.

From Electrek, an EV Blog, heavy advocates of EVs.

EV owners are becoming increasingly frustrated with home charging

A recent study by JD Power found that EV owners have become increasingly frustrated with their home charging experience for...

electrek.co

over two-thirds of EV owners use a Level 2 charger

Refers to JD powers

https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2023-us-electric-vehicle-experience-evx-home-charging-study

"2022 and 2023 model EVs are less satisfied with their home charging speed ... than owners of 2021 model EVs"

It should be clear that as the market matures, people become more critical of the problems. Just watch what happens if it hits mainstream. We live in a society of instant gratification where everyone wants everything NOW. They won't wait for anything so they go deep in debt to get it.

Electric rates are another issues and that's part of there JD Power survey. From Carbuzz

Buying An EV In 2022 Makes You An Early Adopter, And That's OK

Just know what you're getting into.

carbuzz.com

it's absurd to think that as electric cars become more commonplace, electricity isn't going to become more expensive. Energy companies know what the market can bear for fueling a car just by driving past a gas station. ... The idea that electric companies and charging networks won't use the same model to keep profits rising over the years is magical thinking.

I could not say it better. Its a CAPTIVE audience. They will have you. To an extent, some utility companies are regulated so they must go through some commission or regulator to raise rates, but they are ALREADY on track to dual rates. They offer a regular residential rate and a special "EV" rate. Once demand is bad, just watch those EV rates skyrocket BEYOND the residential rate

You see its one thing to charge too much for heat and cooling. Thats BAD. People will be furious. But a car? You don't really need a car do you? You could take the bus or just ride share. After all, TAAS, Transportation as a Service has been discussed many times.

Trapping yourself behind a utility company, a monopoly, is a bad idea. At least with oil, there are MANY different brands of gas stations. Don't like Shell, Dutch? Go buy some Exxon, or whatever. But Electicity? NO, you are trapped, and all those other tiny energy companies get the electricity on the SAME lines as the main utility companies.

This guy is right. If EV ever gets to say 50% market, 140M EV on the road, just watch how much you pay for electricity match gas prices.

 

[Footie]

Their perception is their reality.

Their a huge difference between the perception of those with an EV and those without, for a start those that have an EV still own an ICE car or have previously owned one so they actually have a benchmark to compare whilst those that don’t own one have only their opinions with no experience.

 

[grim]

I know the European Union are forcing manufacturers who sell in their countries down this route but is the same thing currently happening in the US or Asia?

I recall someone posting on another forum that manufacturers are being taxed to the tune of 15K euros for every non EV car they sell, is this fact or fake news?

The EU is forcing EVs on car makers via fines, massive fines, on emissions. You got to look it up. Its complicated, they can trade, but the bottom line is the more carbon you emit, the more the fines. This "effectively" kills ICE. They have no choice but to comply or go out of business. This might be the latest, it changes all the time

CO2 emission standards for new passenger cars and vans in the European Union - International Council on Clean Transportation

Reviews key elements of the regulation and potential risks for the decarbonization of the transport sector

theicct.org

CO2 emission standards for new cars and vans: 'Fit for 55' package | Think Tank | European Parliament

CO2 emission standards for new cars and vans: 'Fit for 55' package

www.europarl.europa.eu

CO₂ emission performance standards for cars and vans

Passenger cars and vans ('light commercial vehicles') are respectively responsible for around 12% and 2.5% of total EU emissions of carbon...

climate.ec.europa.eu

.

The US is totally different base on CAFE fines. You can read it here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy

But they were or are a joke. They were tiny, now larger but read

Automakers Opt Out of Cleaning Up Their Vehicles…But at What Cost?

Their decisions are undermining national security and harming consumers’ pocketbooks.

blog.ucsusa.org

For example, I doubt Porsche ever made the CAFE levels, so they bake the price of the fines into the price of the cars.

Report: GM and Stellantis paid record fuel economy fines

GM chose to pay the fines for fuel-economy shortfalls and bank its credits, while Stellantis reportedly says it's doing better now.

www.greencarreports.com

Although its 2005, read this, and I doubt many buyers even know they are paying the baked in fines that are considered part of doing business.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/fines-colleted-summary.pdf

TLDR, EU fines for companies are company ending. US fines are .... 😅

 

[grim]

And here is another roadblock

Addressing an Electrification Roadblock: Residential Electric Panel Capacity – Pecan Street Inc.

Pecan Street’s new analysis explores the opportunities for policymakers and utilities to remove a significant barrier to residential electrification. By incentivizing electric service panel upgrades for existing homes and requiring larger capacity panels for new construction, we can clear the...

www.pecanstreet.org

48,000,000 houses need their electric panels upgraded. Worse

Half of new houses need upgrades 😧 even thought they are 200 AMP. And why?

What are the hurdles to electrifying a home? Contractors and experts…

Installing heat pumps and induction stoves can be costly and complex, but they boost homeowners' health and comfort — and benefit the climate too.

www.canarymedia.com

Cause they want people to dump those gas furnaces for heat pumps. Look at the chart. I have one of these heat pumps and if you got gas or oil heat, you will probably be miserable with a heat pump. But that's another subject that OT for this discussion. But its good to know WHY panels need to upgraded when adding an EV.

Trust me on this, heat pumps do not work below 20 degrees. Instead a giant toaster comes on and you can just watch your electric meter flying at 9,000 RPMs, better than a GT3.