Actually, it’s our money to do with what we please. I personally don’t have a problem with anyone not wanting to buy an EV and I completely get why some might not want one so why should anyone have a problem with somebody choosing to get one either.

The whole self driving thing is a completely different subject imo but again I think for some people it will open them up to a whole new world of independence who for whatever reason can’t drive that currently have to rely on others. But I think this is a bit further away than people think.

It takes EV to make self driving fly . The average person spends an annual income to sink in debt into a 7 year loan . They will jump at the idea of no cars because they dont enjoy driving and hate expense . Less accidents will become a talking point. Every ride will be tracked . Lower crime will, become a talking point.

It hinges on one word .. Choice . No ice = choice is abandoned .

EU is already there . USA has just one small faction and a lot of junk science but no changes .

130K for a Porsche EV ? No thanks .
You guys lost the choice .

Your ICE Macan days are over .

 

Actually, it’s our money to do with what we please. I personally don’t have a problem with anyone not wanting to buy an EV and I completely get why some might not want one so why should anyone have a problem with somebody choosing to get one either.

 

You have nailed it. Not only have Porsche thrown the baby out with the bath water but (in Europe at least) they have actually killed the baby!

I do not think Porsche is a victim of the nefarious ‘legislation,’ I think they are complicit in it. . .

I firmly believe this is all about making money, and nothing else.

Great points summarized. What's baffling is that Porsche determined to take the tougher route ahead, induced less confidence from potential customers for next gen mode! There are examples of AAOS update on previous PCM hardware from Electronic Section of this forum. Note: Not affiliating with third party upgrade, just to point out it can be done with either software update or PCM upgrade if Porsche choose to remediate potential vulnerability. Leaving tens of thousands of previous Porsche models with vulnerable PCM OS/Software will potentially cause Porsche greater financial impact than fixing the old one!

If cybersecurity has to be baked-in as day-1 design, most likely it's affecting at the network communication level, at the worst, existing Porsche lineups (or Macan ICE) can turn off the cellular connection (manually configuration or via software patch), only allow critical firmware/software update at the Authorized Service Department. Remote attacker won't be able to penetrate without the network connectivity in the first place. Supposedly ICE models can operate and transport without cellular connection!

@grim shared UNECE R155 article, an interesting read on Cybersecurity Management System (CSMS):

1. Physical access control — address threats related to unauthorized physical access to vehicle components (e.g., tampering, theft intrusion).
2. Network security — involve threats to the vehicle's internal and external communication networks (e.g., hacking, malware, interception).
3. Software security — identify risks associated with the software running on the vehicle, including its operating system and applications (e.g., exploits, injection, unauthorized access).
4. Data privacy and protection — pertain to threats targeting the confidentiality and integrity of data collected and processed by the vehicle (e.g., breach, tampering, unauthorized access).
5. Operational security — detail threats that impact the vehicle's operational functionality and safety systems come into play (e.g., manipulation, disruption, interference).
6. Remote access control — highlight risks associated with remote access to the vehicle’s systems, often through wireless connections (e.g., hijacking, exploitation, unauthorized access).
7. Supply chain security — cover threats originating from vulnerabilities within the supply chain, including those from third-party suppliers and service providers (e.g., malicious attacks, vulnerabilities, counterfeit components).

Network and software related items can be addressed with software or PCM update at a cost, another half are applicable to all other Porsche models.

Turn off network, turn off apps, just enjoy the sound of driving!

 

Great points summarized. What's baffling is that Porsche determined to take the tougher route ahead, induced less confidence from potential customers for next gen mode! There are examples of AAOS update on previous PCM hardware from Electronic Section of this forum. Note: Not affiliating with third party upgrade, just to point out it can be done with either software update or PCM upgrade if Porsche choose to remediate potential vulnerability. Leaving tens of thousands of previous Porsche models with vulnerable PCM OS/Software will potentially cause Porsche greater financial impact than fixing the old one!

If cybersecurity has to be baked-in as day-1 design, most likely it's affecting at the network communication level, at the worst, existing Porsche lineups (or Macan ICE) can turn off the cellular connection (manually configuration or via software patch), only allow critical firmware/software update at the Authorized Service Department. Remote attacker won't be able to penetrate without the network connectivity in the first place. Supposedly ICE models can operate and transport without cellular connection!

@grim shared UNECE R155 article, an interesting read on Cybersecurity Management System (CSMS):

1. Physical access control — address threats related to unauthorized physical access to vehicle components (e.g., tampering, theft intrusion).
2. Network security — involve threats to the vehicle's internal and external communication networks (e.g., hacking, malware, interception).
3. Software security — identify risks associated with the software running on the vehicle, including its operating system and applications (e.g., exploits, injection, unauthorized access).
4. Data privacy and protection — pertain to threats targeting the confidentiality and integrity of data collected and processed by the vehicle (e.g., breach, tampering, unauthorized access).
5. Operational security — detail threats that impact the vehicle's operational functionality and safety systems come into play (e.g., manipulation, disruption, interference).
6. Remote access control — highlight risks associated with remote access to the vehicle’s systems, often through wireless connections (e.g., hijacking, exploitation, unauthorized access).
7. Supply chain security — cover threats originating from vulnerabilities within the supply chain, including those from third-party suppliers and service providers (e.g., malicious attacks, vulnerabilities, counterfeit components).

Network and software related items can be addressed with software or PCM update at a cost, another half are applicable to all other Porsche models.

Turn off network, turn off apps, just enjoy the sound of driving!

I still fail to understand how producing a cyber secure vehicle has anything to do with ICE vs EV?

AVM

 

Very true Andy I too noticed this, but we all know such things are short lived. The smart person sells because you know that 6 months down the line it will have dropped. Just after Covid used car prices were nuts but months later they dropped back to normal and the same will be true for the Macan.

 

They are not short-lived. I can only dream of paying $57,300 for brand new 1995 Porsche 993. The same can be said about my 1996 turbo. which by the way I paid over MSRP in 1998 for. It’s now priced triple what I paid. It’s even worse in the GT car range. I have a friend who bought a CPO 2011 RS for $125,000. He was offered $170,000 for it four years later and rejected the offer. They are now selling for $450,000. He still has the car. I can go on endlessly with examples like this, but these are a few that I or people I know have had.

It’s the electric car that is going to plum it in resale. I looked to see if there were any high mileage Taycan reviews or comments. Keep in mind the car is rather new. There is nothing astronomically high in mileage with the car. It’s encouraging the Tesla seems to have a few examples, but there are also examples of brand new Teslas falling apart upon delivery.

The long-term cost is still unknown. It’s a new model making it even further unknown.

I had never watched the premier so I watched about eight or nine minutes of it. I kind of chuckled when they asked the woman who wasn’t art curator if her job was like a vacation and she looked at the interview were like she was delusional and responded by saying it’s very hard work and stressful. I don’t know what any of this had to do with the Macan because I didn’t get that far. There was one thing that I listened to. The representative from Porsche promised that this car will give everything that people are a custom to receiving with Porsche. I don’t believe that for one moment. They promised that with the four-cylinder 718. It failed. With this they can’t give everything that Porsche wants. For starters people have to marry a charging unit . They also have a new worry. They have to worry about range. They have to also worry about fire. We already know it’s not an easy car to extinguish and firefighters go through extended training to be able to deal with EV cars. They also have to face a higher price tag to have all of this . A new Macon turbo cost a lot more than a former Macan GTS.

I can hardly wait to see what the North American numbers are going to be like if Porsche has the guts to actually post them .. usually what Porsche will do is claim “record sales“. Bmw is famous for doing this. They introduce new models so they obviously sell more cars. I would like to see the breakdown but I have a feeling the number one seller in the United States is still going to be the four-cylinder base.

 

So, Porsche had a choice and they chose to cater to legislative policy over consumer interest

Porsche chose to build cyber security around EV and not ICE

This will not end well for the Macan EV or Porsche because, ultimately, the consumer controls legislators, policy, and the market

There is a train coming down the tracks . . .

AVM

 

Porsche chose to build cyber security around EV and not ICE

Wait, thats a misunderstanding

The 992 is ICE and fine with UNEC R155. The 95B platform is 12+ years old. Theres no ROI. Meanwhile plans for the other cars for EV are years away.

VAG needs to get emissions down now to avoid fines. You do that by starting with the high volume car, Macan. Its a business decision.

 

“Teslas can charge from solar panels even if the world goes fully Mad Max and there is no more gasoline!” Elon Musk

Awesome!!!

Teslas are already lining up for one massive recall after another coming down the pike due to ‘safety issues.’

EVERYTHING online is hackable . . . including Macan EVs that adhere to nefarious UN/EU cybersecurity policies.

Porsche picked the wrong lane . . . complicit!

AVM

 

Three posts removed that look like violating Rule #1. Lets keep this civil please.

grim

 

My last post might look like I'm defending PAG's business decision. I'm trying to explain their business decision as I try to see it holistically. They exist to make money.

Look at what happened last year when protesters decided to glue their hand to the floor of the Porsche Museum. They couldn't go to the bathroom. Porsche just ended their day, locked the doors and went home leaving the protesters complaining about lack of food. The next day they were arrested.

I don't see Porsche bowing down to protestors. I see them complying with the laws in the countries they operate in making business decisions to keep their stockholders happy. Nothing more, nothing less.

In the US, CAFE fines are buried into the cost of the cars. If you buy a car that exceeds US emissions standards, you don't even know the car company already paid the fine and the fine was a sunk cost.

Different countries, different laws.

 

Some people make it their entire personality to complain about EVs. I for one am excited and have ordered the Macan 4.

 

Congrats, hope you enjoy it, I’ve a turbo on order. We are from different sides of the ocean but I reckon we each will not see many of the roads for quite a while which in a way will be nice being that little bit unique.

 

According to this news from Porsche Club GB I don't need to worry about buying a new electric Porsche Macan for another 2 years....Yippee !!!

 

Enjoy!!

But, honestly, it is not about one of you . . . Porsche needs to somehow convince 27,000 of you in the U.S. market alone

Not going to happen

AVM

 

Why do you assume Porsche need to sell 27K in the US?

For a start the ICE Macan will remain on sale by the sounds of it so it should still sell in those same quantities, the Macan EU will be additional sales at the moment and will in part come from existing Taycan owners who would ideally prefer an SUV and from EV customers from different brands, sure there will be new to EV customers too but in the US it will probably come mostly from people already converted to EV.

On a side note, was speaking to our electrician at our business and he was saying the 11Kw/H chargers are 3 phase, at least this is the case here in the UK, is this true for America and your electricians are converting your homes to 3 phase?

 

According to this news from Porsche Club GB I don't need to worry about buying a new electric Porsche Macan for another 2 years....Yippee !!!

View attachment 280761

I would forward that to your sales person and have him reply to the status of his dealership with this.
I think that’s great news for you guys..

 

I have shared this information with my Porsche dealership sales team. Their response was that Porsche Head office keep changing their minds and altering the UK relevant information accordingly. It does seem like nobody at Porsche has actually made a firm decision yet.

 

I would forward that to your sales person and have him reply to the status of his dealership with this.
I think that’s great news for you guys..

By the way if this is accurate, then they have two years to do some other things as well as renegotiate. They also have time to look at the electric sales. Much will depend on how the consumer behaves if they got this to fly.

 

Much will depend on how the consumer behaves if they got this to fly.

Of course, [they] will adjust on the fly . . . it is all built into [their] plan

Convenient excuses are the ‘built-in’ components, such as “ongoing confusion of Brexit” . . . this is code for ‘the masses are not coming around as quickly as [we] planned

The same delay tactics just occurred in California with [their] plan to eliminate ICE vehicles

And you better believe forums like this one are used to gauge the temperature of the masses . . . Porsche leadership knows exactly what is being discussed

And pertains to exactly why there are limits to what is allowed to be said on this forum and other media outlets . . . that is just one important way in which [they] try to control the narrative and consumer mindset

AVM

 

Congrats, hope you enjoy it, I’ve a turbo on order. We are from different sides of the ocean but I reckon we each will not see many of the roads for quite a while which in a way will be nice being that little bit unique.

Hope you enjoy the Turbo. I agree, it will be nice having a “unique” car on the road until the masses get ahold of it.

 

At least we aren’t in Asia because I am sure there will be loads of them on the roads. ☺

 

[They] always have to start somewhere, and it always seems to be in the same places . . .

For now, at least, the tolls are for both ICE and EV SUVs . . . any SUV weighing over 1.6 tons, which means the Macan EV qualifies for a triple toll hike.

“Socialist mayor Anne Hidalgo (states) we're proud of having posed an eminently environmental question at a time the environment is presented as the source of all evil.”

Huh?! She got her mandated talking points confused. [Their] nefarious agenda revolves around climate change, not the environment.

EVs are environmental catastrophes, so there is that. . . . and I do not know anyone who ever suggested the environment is the source of all evil. A self-inflicted Freudian slip on her part.

AVM

Paris votes to triple parking charges for some SUVs

The cost to park SUVS driven by non-residents in Paris's central districts will triple to €18 (£15) per hour.

news.sky.com

 

[They] always have to start somewhere, and it always seems to be in the same places . . .

For now, at least, the tolls are for both ICE and EV SUVs . . . any SUV weighing over 1.6 tons, which means the Macan EV qualifies for a triple toll hike.

“Socialist mayor Anne Hidalgo (states) we're proud of having posed an eminently environmental question at a time the environment is presented as the source of all evil.”

Huh?! She got her mandated talking points confused. [Their] nefarious agenda revolves around climate change, not the environment.

EVs are environmental catastrophes, so there is that. . . . and I do not know anyone who ever suggested the environment is the source of all evil. A self-inflicted Freudian slip on her part.

AVM

Paris votes to triple parking charges for some SUVs

The cost to park SUVS driven by non-residents in Paris's central districts will triple to €18 (£15) per hour.

news.sky.com

Its not about EV . Wife used to go to a salon where the owners were French (had salon there too ) . I even got my hair cut there a few times . They were telling me that Paris has too many cars . The USA hasn't gotten. to a point where there are more cars than space to park them . Paris has .

 

I like this Chevy video, if Chevy then Corvette please! (from my frugal European point of view)
We did some 50.000mi when we lived in the US, travelling everywhere around Albuquerque and Phoenix, almost every weekend. I think it would have taken much longer (and to less remote places) to visit in an EV today...on the other hand to get rid of emmissions in the world's big cities EVs seem to be the only viable solution today...

Btw. the French decided to "charge" heavy cars in a different way now. Paris citizens voted to collect 18€/h for parking SUVs, i. e. heavier than 1.6t ICE and 2t EVs (w/o recharging) , which will hit all Macans...not for Parisians, only for commuters and visitors.
...When we visited Paris last year with the Macan, I preferred hotel parking anyway, even though driving in the city was not worse than in Munich...

 

The Daytona 500 could become a two day event.

 

Your reference to the Daytona 500 went over my head but does speak to the topic of ICE vs EV in terms of enthusiasts.

Specifically, like many enthusiasts, I am an audiophile . . . I LOVE engine and exhaust acoustics.

I lived a couple miles from DIS for a couple years recently and could hear the cars from my back porch when they were running; like the sound of calming ocean waves to my ears.

Across the street from DIS is a Crystals (akin to White Castle). I would have the occasion to buy a sack of burgers, pull into a Crystals parking spot, roll down the windows and just listen to cars ROAR around the track on various days during the week they run throughout the year.

In fact, I am far from alone . . . there are MANY who never enter DIS for the D500, rather, prefer to simply take in the acoustic symphony from a spot out in DIS parking (tailgating) lot.

AVM

 

...Puh, when working for technical services during 24h and F1 races all over the Netherlands, Belgium, France and Germany as a student, I was happy to get away from that noise afterwards. Maybe this is the reason, why I can't hear the Macan T's pop and crackle from the regular exhaust any more when driving...after all too bad...

 

Why didn’t the mayor then just say, there are too many cars? Why invoke the ‘environment’?

@yrralis1 is correct. This referandum, decided by Parisians, is about pollution and space

I need to correct my assessment. This is the problem with "headlines" and "articles". Companies want you to read their articles. But they don't always tells you the ENTIRE story, just what they WANT you to know. Not to bury the lede, I conclude @AVM is correct and space is NOT the primary reason for this vote.

The visible target is SUVs, ALL SUVS, but not their ultimate goal. Its just what they can attack today without too much argument, and this is NOT about the people who live in the city but visitors TO the city. Here is the deep(er) dive into what is really going on. Follow the logic. You have to read the references, and not what journalists write.

Start here

Les résultats de la votation sur la tarification des SUV

La Ville de Paris organisait le 4 février une votation sur la place des SUV les plus lourds encombrants et polluants dans la capitale, et notamment sur un tarif spécial de stationnement pour ces véhicules. Toutes les infos sur cette votation.

www-paris-fr.translate.goog

A 6% participation rate in the vote represents apathy. Nobody cares. This doesn't involve locals. It involves visitors. But look closer, there are the referendums about green spaces, eliminating cars in the city, and they mostly all won by 50 point landslides. Pay attention to that which was NOT reported.

Now lets look at who voted. The best I got was from reddit, with a map of the districts, red voted against, blue for the referendum. There is no easy Google translate on this, you have to translate the comments. West Paris vs East Paris, from the comments, the rich vs the poor. Since the fees don't involve the locals, I don't get it but whatever, that's the vote.



Now to the REAL meat of this. Read the references from the first source. SUVs are a scourge! My interpretation of what they are saying.

• They are bigger than the average car
• Spew more pollutants
• Cost more (not sure why they care it cost the consumer more but that is their argument)
• And chances you will get injured more than a car in an accident "Cause Physics 101"

Now we get to the filet mignon part of this. What about EV SUVs, why target them????????

Life cycle costs. It NOT just driving, its the carbon to BUILD these scourges (and I presume DISPOSE of the larger vehicles) EVs are NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Targets will not be met. Start with the low hanging fruit, target those monstrous SUVs, THEN go ofter all EVs. You will not own anything. Take the bus.

And this reference? their own.

Vers des formes de mobilités plus durables | WWF France

La mobilité représente près d’un tiers de la consommation annuelle énergétique et de nos émissions de gaz à effet de serre. Allons vers de nouvelles formes de mobilité !

www-wwf-fr.translate.goog

I get from this, walk or take the bus. SUVs are just the low hanging fruit. EVs aren't good enough, etc etc etc.

This isn't about SUVs. It isn't about Space. Its about climate change. SUVs are just the easy target to BEGIN. Its no accident that the other referendums were about green spaces in the city nor that the references all referenced themselves.

At this point Im stopping. We cannot argue about climate change. No one will agree and it falls under the guidelines of a controversial subject. But at least I know WHY they voted to eliminate ALL VISITOR SUVs from Paris via punitive parking fees for visitors and I'm satisfied with the research. Its not about space. It appears to be the first step to eliminate all vehicles from the city.

 

The part where you said they don’t want you to own anything and take the bus is where all of this is heading. Public transport will change as well. It’ll be somewhat of a combination between public transport and Uber . Its where an actual self driving vehicle is the entity that does all the driving. A person can choose a plan based upon the type of vehicle he wants to ride in. As far as driving goes, they’ll make it a hobby for people who want to go to the track. I don’t know what types of cars they will allow on the track at that point. It will take decades to get there, and I probably won’t be around to see it because I’m too old.

The only has a small faction of climate activist zealots in the USA. The majority who claim they are are really just faking it. They don’t really care about pollution, but they want to give the image that they are doing their part to make the world a better place so that everyone gives them a giant hug. It’s all a ploy to gain acceptance . It’s a social image thing for them, which is huge in the USA.

I don’t think electric cars are bad to offer. I don’t even feel that it’s a bad thing to have for a little trip around town and the person who has charging at his house convenient. However, that is very different than pulling the shelf of everything else. I am amazed that they may come appoint in time where I stand beside a V8 pick up truck guy in agreement on something. Despite our differences in our driving choices, there is that one common thread that we love our choices.

 

 

View attachment 280782

I can only assume that your home need to convert to 3 phase to add a home charger because the 110v system isn’t enough to run a 7Kw/H charger which the domestic homes in Europe and the UK use which is why the price for adding a home charger is so great.

For us the cost of the chargers are less than £500 and because the electrical supply is already there a further £200 top to get it installed.

Total bummer the US went the 110v supply route all those years ago but I suppose no one envisaged EVs or home charging.

 

I fully realise just how massive USA is....

The part where you said they don’t want you to own anything and take the bus is where all of this is heading.

Both of these comments are tied together. I fully believe most European just are clueless about size. Since EV range keeps coming up, this is entirely relevant.

My grandparents lived in the big city. They did not need a car. You could walk to the Butcher, Baker (yes a real baker), no candlestick maker but fish market, and general grocery store. You bought food for the day, like I'm sure part of Europe used to do. The elderly might take one grocery bag store home from walking maybe 1/4 mile. In the bag was a quart of milk, today's bread, maybe a bit of meat, cheese, veggies, and fruit. And that was it. Everything was close.

The only thing I knew about how big the country was, was for movies, books, or TV. There is NOTHING a movie can show that represent the awe of exactly how big the country is. When I finally drove around the country the first time, I was awestruck. There is NOTHING anyone can say to explain how vast it is.

The Great Salt Desert was just a sea of white. Northern Nevada was hundreds of miles of desert and tumbleweed and a rare car coming the opposite direction. I got lost on Forest Roads in Washington state and British Columbia is nothing but trees, really BIG trees, forests of trees. The country is MASSIVE. Yes I know BC is CA

Which brings us to TAAS, or MAAS, Transportation as a Service. From time to time TAAS pops up. IMO its mostly from city dwellers who have no clue of the reality. In the suburbs, not city, I got about 16 miles round trip to the grocery store, 10 to dept stores. Nobody is walking anywhere. And I am NOT going to rent a car and have someone else own it. It goes fundamentally against human nature. Who wants to be in someone else's car?

You all know what happens in rental cars? Who threw up in them? Who *** whatever in them? And public transportation? Last time I was in a train was decades ago and it was FOUL, and I mean FOUL. 🥵 Stinking , and everything associated with it. Stay away from the edge because someone can toss you on the third rail and it happens all the time. 50 years ago it was bad. I can't even imagine today.

Porsche tried this

Porsche subscription model is working and it’s attracting younger drivers, exec says

Amid a U.S. auto market that is struggling, Porsche continues to grow with new products and services, including its subscription service that attracts a younger crowd.

www.cnbc.com

I've heard nothing about it since. Has it failed? No clue. If it was rousing success, it would be all over the news. It isn't. So I assume few to no one uses it.

 

My father, mother and two older siblings did emigrate to the States in the early sixties and I remember him telling me their road trip journey from NewYork to San Diego so yep he said it was vast.

Alas it was just after Kennedy had been shot so jobs were thin on the ground and ended up returning home.

BWT come to my store and you’ll get both a proper baker and butcher. 😉

 

3-phase supply is a key element for domestic EV use. It allows for a full charge overnight. Almost all houses in Germany have a 3-phase supply and are able to charge EVs in principle with 11KW (just proved my new garage installation by charging my brother's Taycan overnight with 70KWh, w/o lighting up our house.)
But there is another issue which will endanger a vast move over to EVs here, this is the distribution and local networks, i .e. the medium voltage 10-20KV and 230V tiers, which are simply too weak in Germany. One can see this by the already installed PV (photo-voltaic) capacity which is output-limited by over-voltages in the local networks. Instead of 230V I have seen almost 250V during cool and sunny weather. Fortunately the regional electricity operator did install powerful underground capacity locally (originally not to support EV charging, but biogas plant based electricity). Other EU countries are set up much better, especially those like France or Finland who did dimension their regional and local networks to support electrical heating, which now enables enough charging capacity by upgrading from simple electrical to heat pump based heating, which frees a lot of power for EV charging.

 

You are 100% correct it’s the supply network which is the limiting factor no matter where you live. Some countries are ahead of others where their infrastructure coverage more sorted and I do think it’s these countries where sales of EVs will be greatest.

Two factors limit people looking at an EV, concerns about range and charging, when both are addressed more people will switch for sure and Norway is the perfect example of this and this despite Norway having very cold winters with a fair bit of snow.

 

Here is a good explanation between EU and US power. Its a reasonable answer, money. Edison and the US system was built out. EU standard is cheaper, less copper, thinner wires. Its also correct in the US these things run on 240V

• Heat pumps
• electric furnances
• electric hot water heaters
• electric clothes dryers
• electric ranges, that is, ovens

everything else is 120V, for a residential house.

https://www.german-way.com/why-is-there-230-volt-power-in-europe-and-120-volts-in-north-america/

Now to add another 240V device can easily be beyond the 60 or 100 amp service.

 

My house is all electric but the snag is that my garage outlet is used to charge a 911. I become excited to problem solve things when I am driven to have it work but become revolted by having it dumped on me . The idea of being faced with. a brain teaser about an EV makes me want to puke .