[Footie]

I think it may just be due the sheer number of Teslas on the road vs all other EVs, or they don't protect them as well.

The thing I don’t get is Tesla cars are significantly lighter than all the other mainstream brands which bags the question what are they skimping on. I look at the likes of the Taycan and we all know Porsche have always had a canny knack at producing lighter cars than their competitors and yet it’s quite a bit heavier and I have no doubt the Macan will be heading towards 2.4 ton so are Tesla cutting corners.

 

[grim]

More of a EV hit piece than a reliable article, but that's par for the course these days.

its not a hit piece in the sense the origin seems to be WGN in Chicago?

EV drivers struggle to keep batteries charged amid winter freeze

CHICAGO — The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal with long lines at charging stations and reduced…

wgntv.com

Its been picked up all across the nation from all kinds of media like University of New Mexico

It's so cold, Teslas are struggling to charge in Chicago who picked it up from NPR

https://www.npr.org/2024/01/16/1224913698/teslas-chicago-charging-extreme-cold

I hardly think NPR is anti-ev. And CBS picked it up

Tesla owners run into battery charging trouble in Chicago's bitter cold

Tesla advises owners to keep the charge level above 20 percent during bitter cold weather.

www.cbsnews.com

Tesla forum says NBC picked it up. Those guys are arguing among themselves

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/chicago-area-superchargers-failing-in-cold.319666/

I don't see it blown out of proportion, the Polar Vortex thing happens year after year. it gets 🥶

 

[grim]

A trip once or twice you say, so the rest of the time home charging would be perfectly acceptable. So those rare trips you will need to call in at a fast charging site and top up for about 20-30mins, great opportunity to stretch your legs, take a toilet break and grab a quick bite.

This is the part those advocating charging at home don't understand. Its not "once in a while". I agree 100% that it makes sense for around town "runabout", if the sunk costs were "free", and the car cost Toyota/Honda Money. They don't, they are all expensive nm the aggravation of dealing with permits.I've traveled extensively, road trip, around the country many times. Some people just have zero idea how big the country really is. And done many, many 500 - 1000 mile trips. When you are "on the road" I aint stopping for nobody. No, not going to stop to eat supper while the car is charging. I don't even like stopping for 5 mins to get gas.

Why? because time is money. There is only so many hours in a day and ALL time lost while "traveling" like on interstates is WASTED time. There is another thread here where someone recently said they traveled 500 mile trips and will not stop for anything. So Macan EV is out. If you have never done this, you can't understand. Interstates are BORING.

Is it the future, I think like it or not it will be because the money each brand is spending on EV technology you don’t do that is you believe it’s just a fad that will run its course in 5 years.

You mean like CDs where every electronic company on the planet started to build CD players?

No one said it was a fad. It is just another fuel source, nothing more, nothing less. In the EU, your politicians are FORCING the car companies to go electric. Otherwise, they go out of business. Do you see Toyota jumping all over this? Or are they waiting for solid state batteries? In the US, energy policies change with the stroke of a pen, and we are not going to discuss this here.

Take a good look at this chart and see how dismal evs registrations numbers REALLY are, but look at all the OTHER alternatives: hybrids, plug-in hybrids, biodiesel, E85 (basically corn), CNG, Propane, Hydrogen, and of course, diesel (which has fallen out of favor and YET, there are diesel everywhere. Without Diesel, no goods get transported to market).

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Vehicle Registration Counts by State

There are more "biodiesel" vehicles than EVs. And I don't even know what a biodiesel vehicle is Ahh, its diesel with oilseed, grease in it. OK, all the grease from Mcdonalds is fuel, I guess!

Learn About Green Vehicles - Biodiesel | US EPA

EPA's Green Vehicle Guide will help you find information on vehicles that are more efficient and less polluting.

www.epa.gov

 

[grim]

Here is Toyota. They are betting on Hydrogen and 600 mile ranges from their batteries.

Toyota Unveils New Technology That Will Change the Future of Cars | Corporate | Global Newsroom | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website

Toyota Motor Corporation (Toyota) recently held a technical briefing session, "Toyota Technical Workshop," under the theme "Let's Change the Future of Cars" and announced a variety of new technologies that will support its transformation into a mobility company.

global.toyota

Toyota confirms 750 mi range solid-state EV battery plans to catch up to Tesla, but when?

Toyota confirmed plans to launch solid-state EV batteries with 10-minute fast charging and up to 750 miles (1,200 km) WLTP...

electrek.co

So it takes them a couple of years. So what? The tech is all in its infancy and early adopters pay a DEAR price. The problem with Porsche electrics is they are FORCED, rather than developing at the pace the market would normally allow.

If Toyota pulls off 10 min charging, 600 - 750 mile ranges, AND SELLS THEM AT Toyota prices, the rest of the EV companies will be in big trouble and all the early adopters will be 😫

And look here

Could Solid-State Batteries Supercharge Electric Vehicles?

Latest Toyota announcement around a “breakthrough in solid-state battery technology” is surrounded by excitement. Let's dive into the science behind the hype

www.forbes.com

These battery materials can withstand low and high temperatures, making them very useful in extreme conditions. ...And solid-state battery materials are likely to have higher energy densities too, which means that for the same weight, you can store more power.

Yes, if the do it, there will be a lot of 😧

 

[grim]

You need the companies like Tesla, that are visionary and you got to start somewhere ...

Then you need the companies like Toyota, that take things to the next level. They don't seem driven by any "mandate" but by how fast tech evolves. Everyone else in the middle, well ...

 

[ericsan13]

its not a hit piece in the sense the origin seems to be WGN in Chicago?

EV drivers struggle to keep batteries charged amid winter freeze

CHICAGO — The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal with long lines at charging stations and reduced…

wgntv.com

Its been picked up all across the nation from all kinds of media like University of New Mexico

It's so cold, Teslas are struggling to charge in Chicago who picked it up from NPR

https://www.npr.org/2024/01/16/1224913698/teslas-chicago-charging-extreme-cold

I hardly think NPR is anti-ev. And CBS picked it up

Tesla owners run into battery charging trouble in Chicago's bitter cold

Tesla advises owners to keep the charge level above 20 percent during bitter cold weather.

www.cbsnews.com

Tesla forum says NBC picked it up. Those guys are arguing among themselves

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/chicago-area-superchargers-failing-in-cold.319666/

I don't see it blown out of proportion, the Polar Vortex thing happens year after year. it gets 🥶

It is a hit piece because without doing any real research on why the cars are charging, the news leads the reader to believe that EVs don't work in sub-freezing temps. The Tesla form post #31 captures this sentiment well. The forums are saying that three supercharger stations were down, and when Tesla routed users to those stations they were unable to charge and died.

Instead of reporting that, extreme cold weather becomes a reason not to buy EVs. If extreme cold weather really affected EVs this significantly, this news story would be nationwide and not isolated to a couple stations in Chicago.

It's easy to blame the EV or the driver (for not being better prepared), but if an ICE car near empty was routed to an inoperable gas station, there might be a lot of dead cars at that gas station too. Of course it's easier to fill up a stranded ICE car, but still no one would write a news story and spread it with the message ICE cars don't work in cold weather.

 

[Footie]

This is the part those advocating charging at home don't understand. Its not "once in a while". I agree 100% that it makes sense for around town "runabout", if the sunk costs were "free", and the car cost Toyota/Honda Money. They don't, they are all expensive nm the aggravation of dealing with permits.I've traveled extensively, road trip, around the country many times. Some people just have zero idea how big the country really is. And done many, many 500 - 1000 mile trips. When you are "on the road" I aint stopping for nobody. No, not going to stop to eat supper while the car is charging. I don't even like stopping for 5 mins to get gas.

What you are describing it YOU, rather than possibly most owners considering an EV. I stand by what I say and I bet I am right that the vast majority of EV owners with home chargers almost exclusively charge at home 99.9% of the time. I did get the size of the country but by the same token if you are taking multiple trips over huge distances then maybe you shouldn’t be considering an EV because at the moment the technology isn’t there yet for your needs.

You mean like CDs where every electronic company on the planet started to build CD players?

No one said it was a fad. It is just another fuel source, nothing more, nothing less. In the EU, your politicians are FORCING the car companies to go electric. Otherwise, they go out of business. Do you see Toyota jumping all over this? Or are they waiting for solid state batteries? In the US, energy policies change with the stroke of a pen, and we are not going to discuss this here.

Take a good look at this chart and see how dismal evs registrations numbers REALLY are, but look at all the OTHER alternatives: hybrids, plug-in hybrids, biodiesel, E85 (basically corn), CNG, Propane, Hydrogen, and of course, diesel (which has fallen out of favor and YET, there are diesel everywhere. Without Diesel, no goods get transported to market).

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Vehicle Registration Counts by State

There are more "biodiesel" vehicles than EVs. And I don't even know what a biodiesel vehicle is Ahh, its diesel with oilseed, grease in it. OK, all the grease from Mcdonalds is fuel, I guess!

Learn About Green Vehicles - Biodiesel | US EPA

EPA's Green Vehicle Guide will help you find information on vehicles that are more efficient and less polluting.

www.epa.gov

EVs are here to stay, will they replace all other forms of propulsion absolutely not and nor should they. I think it’s great that synthetic fuel is here as a possible replacement for petrol but diesel isn’t ideal and never has been and this is from someone who has owned in total 8 diesel cars, so if they can clean diesel up to an acceptable level then great but if not then we need a proper alternative.

I am not on for the pressure being put of manufacturers to go all in with EV but as someone driving an EV daily I am glad that we have it as an option but that’s all it should ever be, an option among many not something we are forced to take.

 

[Robert M]

What you are describing it YOU, rather than possibly most owners considering an EV. I stand by what I say and I bet I am right that the vast majority of EV owners with home chargers almost exclusively charge at home 99.9% of the time. I did get the size of the country but by the same token if you are taking multiple trips over huge distances then maybe you shouldn’t be considering an EV because at the moment the technology isn’t there yet for your needs.



EVs are here to stay, will they replace all other forms of propulsion absolutely not and nor should they. I think it’s great that synthetic fuel is here as a possible replacement for petrol but diesel isn’t ideal and never has been and this is from someone who has owned in total 8 diesel cars, so if they can clean diesel up to an acceptable level then great but if not then we need a proper alternative.

I am not on for the pressure being put of manufacturers to go all in with EV but as someone driving an EV daily I am glad that we have it as an option but that’s all it should ever be, an option among many not something we are forced to take.

Except the government is mandating that I can't buy an ICE vehicle after 2035 so, in effect, they are forcing me to buy an EV and alter my driving habits to fit their mandate. They're not advocating that I buy an ICE vehicle and an EV and drive them in the manner that works best for the environment. They're just saying I have to buy EVs and I will not be able to replace my ICE vehicle with a like ICE vehicle.

 

[grim]

It is a hit piece because without doing any real research on why the cars are charging, the news leads the reader to believe that EVs don't work in sub-freezing temps. The Tesla form post #31 captures this sentiment well. The forums are saying that three supercharger stations were down, and when Tesla routed users to those stations they were unable to charge and died.

OK, it was not a hit piece in the sense of the media interjecting their opinion like “ev bad”. But I can agree they did not do a good job reporting. The fact the chargers were not available is a very real issue and cannot be ignored, But I dont think they were attacking evs other than to get clickbait headlines. IOW, I dont see a direct attack on Tesla but clickbait headlines.

 

[ericsan13]

This is the part those advocating charging at home don't understand. Its not "once in a while". I agree 100% that it makes sense for around town "runabout", if the sunk costs were "free", and the car cost Toyota/Honda Money. They don't, they are all expensive nm the aggravation of dealing with permits.I've traveled extensively, road trip, around the country many times. Some people just have zero idea how big the country really is. And done many, many 500 - 1000 mile trips. When you are "on the road" I aint stopping for nobody. No, not going to stop to eat supper while the car is charging. I don't even like stopping for 5 mins to get gas.

Why? because time is money. There is only so many hours in a day and ALL time lost while "traveling" like on interstates is WASTED time. There is another thread here where someone recently said they traveled 500 mile trips and will not stop for anything. So Macan EV is out. If you have never done this, you can't understand. Interstates are BORING.

I love data so here's something interesting about EV owner habits.

Home charging is a significant part of the electric vehicle (EV)1 ownership experience, with 88% of owners who say they charge their vehicle at home “often” or “always.”

https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2021-us-electric-vehicle-experience-evx-home-charging-study

I'm surprised 12% do not and still bought an EV. If we assume a 14,263 mile/year usage, that's 12,551 miles charged at home and 1,712 miles charged outside. Now let's assume a Model Y charge rate of 20% to 80% in 20 minutes, or 271 miles every 30 minutes. That's 3.16 hours spent outside the home charging per year.

Now let's do the ICE version. Average Fuel Economy for model year 2020 vehicles increased to a record 25.4 miles per gallon (mpg). That's 562 gallons of gas. At a flow rate of 2 gallons per minute, that's 281 minutes or 4.68 hours spent just waiting for the gas at the gas station, not including the trip/wait/start/payment time for roughly 25 trips to the gas station.

Yes time is money, but the time spent at gas stations is also wasted time and more than offset by home charging.

 

[grim]

I love data so here's something interesting about EV owner habits.

Home charging is a significant part of the electric vehicle (EV)1 ownership experience, with 88% of owners who say they charge their vehicle at home “often” or “always.”

https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2021-us-electric-vehicle-experience-evx-home-charging-study

I'm surprised 12% do not and still bought an EV. If we assume a 14,263 mile/year usage, that's 12,551 miles charged at home and 1,712 miles charged outside. Now let's assume a Model Y charge rate of 20% to 80% in 20 minutes, or 271 miles every 30 minutes. That's 3.16 hours spent outside the home charging per year.

Now let's do the ICE version. Average Fuel Economy for model year 2020 vehicles increased to a record 25.4 miles per gallon (mpg). That's 562 gallons of gas. At a flow rate of 2 gallons per minute, that's 281 minutes or 4.68 hours spent just waiting for the gas at the gas station, not including the trip/wait/start/payment time.

Yes time is money, but the time spent at gas stations is also wasted time and more than offset by home charging.

Except it dont work that way. I agree for around town, home charging has a point, but when I did road trips, they could be 10,000 miles in 3 or 4 weeks, then 1000 mile trips multiple times a year. Basically 80% of the miles were on the road. But sure, if you drive 14K a year around town, Im not even sure why anyone needs a SUV and not an econobox

Besides, Toyota batteries are, if anything, will be the future, not the current batteries. Tech always gets better.

 

[Footie]

Except the government is mandating that I can't buy an ICE vehicle after 2035 so, in effect, they are forcing me to buy an EV and alter my driving habits to fit their mandate. They're not advocating that I buy an ICE vehicle and an EV and drive them in the manner that works best for the environment. They're just saying I have to buy EVs and I will not be able to replace my ICE vehicle with a like ICE vehicle.

That’s 12 years from now, whether this actually happens or the time is moved further forward I suppose we won’t know until we get closer to that date but one thing I do know for sure is that in 12 years time EV technology will be way better than it is currently.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if charging times at a fast charger is no longer than it takes to fill your petrol tank and it will travel as far if not further than a diesel car. Maybe by that point you will want an EV because it will fulfil your needs.

 

[grim]

Except the government is mandating that I can't buy an ICE vehicle after 2035

Not really, read it. Unlike the EU, where their legislative body created law, this is nothing but a “goal” created by the current “executive“. I got lots of goals, but they are not mandates or laws. With a stroke of a pen, the next governor can change that, who knows what happens in a decade? Market forces can be different, or not.

https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/9.23.20-EO-N-79-20-Climate.pdf

 

[Footie]

Except it dont work that way. I agree for around town, home charging has a point, but when I did road trips, they could be 10,000 miles in 3 or 4 weeks, then 1000 mile trips multiple times a year. Basically 80% of the miles were on the road. But sure, if you drive 14K a year around town, Im not even sure why anyone needs a SUV and not an econobox

Besides, Toyota batteries are, if anything, will be the future, not the current batteries. Tech always gets better.

But would you accept that you are probably the exception to the rule especially if the average miles per year is 14K and you are at times doing almost that amount in 3-4 weeks. An EV clearly isn’t for you and if I were to be honest I don’t think I would want to be doing that amount of miles on my Porsche ICE car either.

Why would you buy an SUV if it’s an EV, why would anyone buy a 2 seater sports car? Simple it’s what they want and who are we to argue, if life is all about logical decisions then how boring would our car choices be. 🤔

Solid state batteries are the future but they are at least 4-5 years away and I am sure as soon as the tech is available all the brands will adapt to them, the beauty of EVs and their batteries is adapting shouldn’t be too difficult. But that’s no reason to wait until it arrives, if everyone took that approach we would never change and be always waiting for the next best thing.

One thing I would add is I think anyone is mad buying a car outright at the moment and this includes an ICE car, things are changing fast.

 

[grim]

But would you accept that you are probably the exception to the rule

Not really. This could be a UK/US thing. Lots of Americans do road trips for vacation. Its completely normal. Some people hit the open road, head out to Yellowstone with the family, take a couple of weeks, maybe camp out, many do motels. Some examples just in this forum, 41 days in a Macan

https://www.macanforum.com/threads/road-trip.191948/
https://www.macanforum.com/threads/2017-macan-gts.182861
https://www.macanforum.com/threads/1st-long-distance-trip-in-the-macan.83473
https://www.macanforum.com/threads/a-truly-epic-journey-6k-miles-in-14-days-in-raptor.145641/

Its totally normal to take vacations. Some drive up and down the East Coast, from NE to Disney World. Others are out west. Its normal to do a vacation and a SUV is a GOOD vehicle for long trips. No worries about dirt roads in the West where it is an issue for sports cars and sedans, no worries about those Spring snowstorms, etc. Many take a couple of weeks at the beach and that beach could be 1,000 miles away. Its as American as Apple Pie and McD 🍔🍟 Remember, its a BIG country. Huge. Its not like you drive 500 miles and pass through five countries and 3 different languages.

Dont you like the idea of packing up the kids, and heading out for maybe 5,000 miles and see the USA in your ... Chevrolet? Nothing could be more American than a road trip. I think its completely normal for middle class America to hit the road, pack up the kids, and go to Disney World, or wherever. It happens all the time.

if I were to be honest I don’t think I would want to be doing that amount of miles on my Porsche ICE car either.

Why not? There are, obviously, garage queens but those are the sports cars, not the "utility vehicles" Who keeps a Utility Vehicle as a garage queen? They are common, meant to be used to haul people and cargo. There is nothing special about them in the sense of low production numbers, etc. Some people throw all-terrain tires on them and have fun in the desert or wherever.

As Ferry Porsche once said "Our cars meant to be driven, not polished".

Solid state batteries are the future but they are at least 4-5 years away and I am sure as soon as the tech is available all the brands will adapt to them, the beauty of EVs and their batteries is adapting shouldn’t be too difficult.

Toyota says 2026, that's two years. Early adopters pay twice. From Toyota link above

We will roll out next-generation BEVs globally and as a full lineup to be launched in 2026.

The masses, the vast number of people in the middle of the distribution, if they change to EV, might be more inclined with solid state battery tech more mature than the current industry in its infancy.

 

[ericsan13]

Except it dont work that way. I agree for around town, home charging has a point, but when I did road trips, they could be 10,000 miles in 3 or 4 weeks, then 1000 mile trips multiple times a year. Basically 80% of the miles were on the road. But sure, if you drive 14K a year around town, Im not even sure why anyone needs a SUV and not an econobox

Besides, Toyota batteries are, if anything, will be the future, not the current batteries. Tech always gets better.

It doesn't work that way...for you. The data shows EV owners charge 88% at home. Unfortunately there is no data about who is taking a road trip, how far, and how often. But in the case you are part of the less common american super roadtrip species, you could just get around charging outside by renting a car. Or use a second cars as most households seem to have. Best of both worlds.

 

[grim]

Or use a second cars as most households seem to have. Best of both worlds.

Except they want ALL EV, see the CA exec order above. But Im good with choice, Choice is good.

 

[ericsan13]

Not really. This could be a UK/US thing. Lots of Americans do road trips for vacation. Its completely normal. Some people hit the open road, head out to Yellowstone with the family, take a couple of weeks, maybe camp out, many do motels. Some examples just in this forum, 41 days in a Macan

https://www.macanforum.com/threads/road-trip.191948/
https://www.macanforum.com/threads/2017-macan-gts.182861
https://www.macanforum.com/threads/1st-long-distance-trip-in-the-macan.83473
https://www.macanforum.com/threads/a-truly-epic-journey-6k-miles-in-14-days-in-raptor.145641/

Its totally normal to take vacations. Some drive up and down the East Coast, from NE to Disney World. Others are out west. Its normal to do a vacation and a SUV is a GOOD vehicle for long trips. No worries about dirt roads in the West where it is an issue for sports cars and sedans, no worries about those Spring snowstorms, etc. Many take a couple of weeks at the beach and that beach could be 1,000 miles away. Its as American as Apple Pie and McD 🍔🍟 Remember, its a BIG country. Huge. Its not like you drive 500 miles and pass through five countries and 3 different languages.

Dont you like the idea of packing up the kids, and heading out for maybe 5,000 miles and see the USA in your ... Chevrolet? Nothing could be more American than a road trip. I think its completely normal for middle class America to hit the road, pack up the kids, and go to Disney World, or wherever. It happens all the time.

You sampled a very niche, affluent, enthusiast forum. Most of the US is not like this and most people never even leave their state.

 

[ericsan13]

Except they want ALL EV, see the CA exec order above. But Im good with choice, Choice is good.

I agree choice is good. I think we already agreed that EV is not for all. That may change in the future as that ALL EV future is 11 years from now. As you said, a lot can change until then.

 

[ericsan13]

I found some data on roadtrips:

• 20.07% – Zero, not going on a road trip
• 18.70% – within 100 miles from home
• 21.35% – within 500 miles from home
• 11.59% – within 1,000 miles from home
• 6.75% – more than 1,000 miles from home

Grim - it looks like you fall into the 6.75%.

For every 250 miles you're stopping to charge once, unless you have a charger at your destination.

So 38% will strictly charge from home. 21% will stop 30 minutes to charge. The remaining 18.34% will have to plan ahead.

That's very reasonable to do now and even better once infrastructure improves. We're still in the early-days.

Edit: #5 point in the roadtrip article stating "nearly two-thirds of all Americans on a road trip feel the safest mode of transportation is rental cars" and #8 point stating "on average, Americans take about seven road trips in their lifetimes" is extremely relevant as well.