[Mii]

You could argue that decentralized electricity and EV manufacturing is both the cause and solution to mass hacking. Also with all the connected ICE cars, I don't believe ICE is immune from the hacking problem either.

ICE does not have same concern for these type of hacks.

Addressing EV Charger Network Connection Security Concerns

With the rising popularity and demand for electric vehicles (EVs), the need to address network connection security in EV infrastructure has become a top priority. As more cities and countries are investing in EV charging stations, ensuring the security of these charging networks is crucial for...

energy5.com

Yes, Your Electric Vehicle Could Potentially Be Hacked

EV charging brings multiple security and privacy risks

spectrum.ieee.org

As the EV charging infrastructure expands, several challenges arise concerning network connection security:

• Unauthorized access: Hackers may attempt to gain unauthorized access to the charging stations, potentially causing disruption to the network and compromising user data.
• Data privacy: EV charging stations collect various data points, such as user ID, charging duration, and energy consumption. Ensuring the privacy of this data is critical to maintaining customer trust.
• Physical security: Ensuring the physical security of the charging stations is essential to prevent vandalism or tampering that could lead to network disruptions.
• Protection against malware and cyber attacks: EV charging stations, like any other connected device, are susceptible to malware and cyber attacks. Safeguarding the infrastructure from these threats is crucial.

Charging infra opens up wider attack vector, when compromised, it's more severe than national security.

 

[Footie]

This is the thing. If there is enough EV infra, then EVs can be for everyone. Everyone who is willing. Big If of course.

Next the battery flaming issue is a non-issue:
"According to information from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and EVFireSafe, 1 out of every 1,000 Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicles catch fire, where only 1 out of 83,333 EVs catch fire. This is a significant difference."
(Source: Burning Issues: The TRUTH About EV Battery Fires)
The reason people think it is an issue is either because the fire can be much larger and difficult to control, and of course the media and others cluelessly attacking EVs.



Is this any worse than US reliance on gas from OPEC+ and their cartel pricing? Should we get our gas from Russia instead? National security is a big part of the push to EVs. You could argue that decentralized electricity and EV manufacturing is both the cause and solution to mass hacking. Also with all the connected ICE cars, I don't believe ICE is immune from the hacking problem either.

You mentioned OPEC+ and this is something I also touch on at some point, the beauty of electricity is it can be produced in sustainable ways be that wind, solar or from wave as well as nuclear.

This move to EV has the potential to cut out the middle man for most countries but most countries are along way away from being self sustaining when it comes to electricity or producing their electricity without some form of fossil fuel.

 

[Footie]

ICE does not have same concern for these type of hacks.

Addressing EV Charger Network Connection Security Concerns

With the rising popularity and demand for electric vehicles (EVs), the need to address network connection security in EV infrastructure has become a top priority. As more cities and countries are investing in EV charging stations, ensuring the security of these charging networks is crucial for...

energy5.com

Yes, Your Electric Vehicle Could Potentially Be Hacked

EV charging brings multiple security and privacy risks

spectrum.ieee.org

As the EV charging infrastructure expands, several challenges arise concerning network connection security:

• Unauthorized access: Hackers may attempt to gain unauthorized access to the charging stations, potentially causing disruption to the network and compromising user data.
• Data privacy: EV charging stations collect various data points, such as user ID, charging duration, and energy consumption. Ensuring the privacy of this data is critical to maintaining customer trust.
• Physical security: Ensuring the physical security of the charging stations is essential to prevent vandalism or tampering that could lead to network disruptions.
• Protection against malware and cyber attacks: EV charging stations, like any other connected device, are susceptible to malware and cyber attacks. Safeguarding the infrastructure from these threats is crucial.

Charging infra opens up wider attack vector, when compromised, it's more severe than national security.

Modern ICE cars no longer need a mechanic they need a computer technician to work on them and with more and more getting over the air updates so I think you are fooling yourself if you think they are any less prone to hacking.

That throttle pedal you press more often than not isn’t connected to anything other than a switch and that engine you run is all controlled by a computer.

Also when you go to your gas station and put your card into the pump to get the fuel this is no different to a charging station, I know this industry because I own a gas station and depending on your supplier you will most likely be using their card software system so if their system goes down so do you.

 

[grim]

🥶

 

[grim]

Next the battery flaming issue is a non-issue:
"According to information from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and EVFireSafe, 1 out of every 1,000 Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicles catch fire, where only 1 out of 83,333 EVs catch fire. This is a significant difference."

But they dont tell you that you get a cool red blanket for the ev . Its not the quantity of fires that matter as much as the quality.

I‘ll bet the owners of the Felicity Ace, now at the bottom of the Atlantic, might know something about this along with the car companies who had to rebuild all the cars that are swimming with the fish.

 

[Footie]

🥶

A definite bummer and such low temperature clearly show where EVs have their limitations. Where I live we have a much narrower temperature range between the highs and lows through a season, I did a quick check on how much KWs I used during the winter compared to summer and it actually surprised me. 257.6KW during the month of July compared to 299.8KW for the month of January, that’s only an increase of approximately 16% but I was told long ago that keeping the cabin temperature lower I set mine at 19 degree and use the seated seat is more efficient than raising the cabin temperature and no heated seat.

 

[grim]

Is this any worse than US reliance on gas from OPEC+ and their cartel pricing? Should we get our gas from Russia instead? National security is a big part of the push to EVs.

This discussion is moving dangerously close to being "controversial". Lets end this now, Any further discussion of the controversial political decisions will result in action taken against accounts. Please stay away from political discussions.

thanks

grim

 

[Footie]

But they dont tell you that you get a cool red blanket for the ev . Its not the quantity of fires that matter as much as the quality.

I‘ll bet the owners of the Felicity Ace, now at the bottom of the Atlantic, might know something about this along with the car companies who had to rebuild all the cars that are swimming with the fish.

I’m almost 57, I don’t work for the fire department or anything and I have been present to a total of 4 car fires of petrol cars, one of which was quite scary as I was driving in the opposite direction to a Ford Focus which I could see the flames coming out from under the floor as this woman drove towards me. I flashed the lights and did a quick U-turn in the road getting her stopped and her two kids out of the car just in time before it was engulfed in flames. There was no stopping saving this car but the other 3 we did stop the fires. I think for most people the whole bursting into flames for EVs have been blown out of all proportions, mostly anti-EV people, some fake news and the evidence has shown this to be the case.

But and it’s a big but, when an EV does go up there appears to be no way of stopping it as it’s a cascade effect as it works from one battery to the next and so on. If that car is parked in your garage then chances if it burst into flame not matter how unlikely the whole garage will be gone too. Currently Insurance rates are slightly better if a car is garaged but for an EV they might look to change this.

 

[grim]

But and it’s a big but, when an EV does go up there appears to be no way of stopping it as it’s a cascade effect as it works from one battery to the next and so on. If that car is parked in your garage then chances if it burst into flame not matter how unlikely the whole garage will be gone too. Currently Insurance rates are slightly better if a car is garaged but for an EV they might look to change this.

I think I just said this. Its the "quality" of the fire that bothers people, not the "quantity" of them. And rightfully so. No one ever heard of "thermal runaway" before. They never heard of a fire being out and then restarting in the junkyard. Its new, and just another factor in decision making. Take it for what it's worth. eg Chevy Bolt owners were told to NOT park in the garage. 2023.

Yes Chevy Bolt Electric Vehicles Are Still Catching Fire

A Chevrolet Bolt caught fire and burned in an owner's driveway this week. Apparently, the Bolt fire issue is not behind us.

www.torquenews.com

The images here were suppressed to avoid inflaming the situations (no pun intended) but links to the source

 

[grim]

IMO, The fires are what they are. A RORO sank. Thats a big deal. Car fires happen all the time. Now there might be fewer but far more difficult to put out. Its just part of the decision making process. Take it as input and decide for yourself.

Your car, your house, your money, do as you please.

 

[Mii]

Modern ICE cars no longer need a mechanic they need a computer technician to work on them and with more and more getting over the air updates so I think you are fooling yourself if you think they are any less prone to hacking.

That throttle pedal you press more often than not isn’t connected to anything other than a switch and that engine you run is all controlled by a computer.

Also when you go to your gas station and put your card into the pump to get the fuel this is no different to a charging station, I know this industry because I own a gas station and depending on your supplier you will most likely be using their card software system so if their system goes down so do you.

Most auto makers still require cars at service department to perform major firmware level update (FOTA) as compared to conventional Software Over The Air (SOTA) for the same reason. Though EV is very much integrated with Internet of Things (loT), among other smart connections. It begs for questions if auto makers are really ready to cover all these infra support (power grid, charging station, cyber security, etc), not simply adding new charging station in the wild!

One needs to realize the fundamental difference, ICE cars still allow fueling without Internet (cellular / WiFi), consumers can still move to their destinations, can we say the same for EV?

No internet. No app. No charging!

For gas stations scenario, if one opt for using credit card, the attack vector is limited to personal info / financial level hack, and won't result a compromise of power grid or gas station pipeline of the entire city or broader areas. Gas stations most likely offer cash payment option that's less likely be an option for charging station.

Hackers Could Use Electric Vehicle Chargers to Attack the Power Grid

Hackers have already infiltrated electric vehicle chargers, usually for innocuous reasons, but bad actors could use that foothold to bring down the power grid

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[grim]

For gas stations scenario, if one opt for using credit card, the attack vector is limited to personal info / financial level hack, and won't result a compromise of power grid or gas station pipeline of the entire city or broader areas. Gas stations most likely offer cash payment option that's less likely be an option for charging station.

33% of the time the credit card thing is broken so you walk into the station and pay cash upfront 🤷‍♂️

Can you pay cash with an EV?

Broken Charging Stations Could Be Stalling the EV Movement

Range anxiety is bad enough. But even when they find a station, drivers often have to deal with broken equipment.

www.wired.com

 

[Footie]

Most auto makers still require cars at service department to perform major firmware level update (FOTA) as compared to conventional Software Over The Air (SOTA) for the same reason. Though EV is very much integrated with Internet of Things (loT), among other smart connections. It begs for questions if auto makers are really ready to cover all these infra support (power grid, charging station, cyber security, etc), not simply adding new charging station in the wild!

One needs to realize the fundamental difference, ICE cars still allow fueling without Internet (cellular / WiFi), consumers can still move to their destinations, can we say the same for EV?


For gas stations scenario, if one opt for using credit card, the attack vector is limited to personal info / financial level hack, and won't result a compromise of power grid or gas station pipeline of the entire city or broader areas. Gas stations most likely offer cash payment option that's less likely be an option for charging station.

Hackers Could Use Electric Vehicle Chargers to Attack the Power Grid

Hackers have already infiltrated electric vehicle chargers, usually for innocuous reasons, but bad actors could use that foothold to bring down the power grid

www.scientificamerican.com

I think you misunderstood me, our pumps run a software by the supplier, we can’t pump fuel without that transaction for your credit card first so if the supplier had their system hacked this could filter down to effect us too and stop the sale right across the network.

It wouldn’t have been the first time our credit card system has went down, in the past you could do a manual transaction but not when it’s now pay at the pump.

All I am saying is it’s not as full proof as you think.

 

[95B3.6]

beyond what the electric networks are currently capable of providing

Given that it will take a long time to get the grid upgraded to the level ultimately needed, it's interesting that the interim plan is to integrate smart grid methodologies to bridge the gap...

• Smart grids enable optimized charging infrastructure and bi-directional energy flow.
• Demand response programs incentivize EV owners to charge their vehicles during off-peak hours, balancing supply and demand on the grid.

The Synergistic Relationship of Smart Grids and Electric Vehicles

Of course, the proof is in the pudding.

 

[dave-t]

Given that it will take a long time to get the grid upgraded to the level ultimately needed, it's interesting that the interim plan is to integrate smart grid methodologies to bridge the gap...

• Smart grids enable optimized charging infrastructure and bi-directional energy flow.
• Demand response programs incentivize EV owners to charge their vehicles during off-peak hours, balancing supply and demand on the grid.

The Synergistic Relationship of Smart Grids and Electric Vehicles

Of course, the proof is in the pudding.

The grid is way under powered I live in a condo and the same transformer has blown 3 times in last past year. If they can’t give us enough electricity to power our heat/AC and keep the lights on how are they going to add charging cars to that mix . To put it into perspective I do not live in a low income or middle class area. A condo is $500,000-1M and a house starts at the 2.4 to 2.6M and I live 2.5 miles out of Washington DC here all these polices are made.

 

[grim]

See post 267. Second and last warning. 3 posts deleted. See rule 8. No political posts even as explanation, it never ends well

carry on with rants but no politics

 

[grim]

And we get days when told to save electric cause everyone has their AC on 😥

 

[dave-t]

And we get days when told to save electric cause everyone has their AC on 😥

Another reason why I think this is never going to happen by 2035 to much has to be done and not enough money to do it. Time will tell and I hope I am not around to have to deal with it, change is not one of my strong points. I admit I am set I my ways and takes a lot to away me, call me stubborn Italian lol.

 

[ericsan13]

But they dont tell you that you get a cool red blanket for the ev . Its not the quantity of fires that matter as much as the quality.

Both quantity and quality matters. If quality data could be produced by insurance companies or otherwise, we'd know the true cost of the fires.

But guessing by my own EV insurance rates, the many articles out there debunking this, and the 83:1 for ICE:EV car fires, I'd be willing to be that ICE cars are on the losing end of the fire argument.

Also big flashy news articles about EV fires are anecdotal and should be taken with a grain of salt. Especially with the Bolt. You could say not to buy any ICE car because Kias are easy to steal. Doesn't make sense. Just don't buy a Bolt...or a Kia.

 

[ericsan13]

Most auto makers still require cars at service department to perform major firmware level update (FOTA) as compared to conventional Software Over The Air (SOTA) for the same reason. Though EV is very much integrated with Internet of Things (loT), among other smart connections. It begs for questions if auto makers are really ready to cover all these infra support (power grid, charging station, cyber security, etc), not simply adding new charging station in the wild!

One needs to realize the fundamental difference, ICE cars still allow fueling without Internet (cellular / WiFi), consumers can still move to their destinations, can we say the same for EV?

As legacy automakers play catch up to EVs in terms of connectivity, tech, and feature parity, the amount of ICE susceptible to hacking will increase. Basically every luxury car you get nowadays is connected and it will become even more so. When cars started becoming connected last decade, I'm sure this same argument was made. But the only hacking I hear about is traditional FOBs being cloned/relayed to steal ICE cars. Not an issue with EVs.

Plus if one EV charging network is down, just move to another. Once they become ubiquitous, it'll become better regulated. Let's not pretend all the gas stations aren't already susceptible to hacking.

Also most the charging happens at home. Think about you leaving your house daily with 80% fuel in the tank. You can go several days even if your home is hacked. If not, go to one of the established charging networks.