[95B3.6]

it will start to be a become a lucrative addition

I assume the same. At some point real estate agents should have a sense of the actual numbers and ROI.

Here in the land of Tesla it clearly is an incentive to Short Term Renters heading up to the coast or wine country.

 

[ericsan13]

I don't hate it. I explicitly said I could see it for an about town runabout. But people need to understand that the "low hanging fruit" have been picked. Now they got to handle the other 99% of the country.

Mileage is a big deal. There needs to be a breakeven point before savings are realized. My mileage is WAY down post pandemic. No more driving 12K miles/year, now its more a toy than anything else. I plugged the numbers in via local utility and the breakeven point is more than a decade away. There is just no ROI.

L1 is just too low. If I want power, I want it NOW. We live in a I want it now, society

I know you're exaggerating, but 99% of the country is not even close. "The widespread adoption of 200-amp electrical service in the United States became more common starting in the mid-20th century, particularly in the 1950s and 1960s." (ChatGPT lol)

There's a whole lot of houses who can get L2 chargers, we're just scratching the surface. In 2022 only 10% of the houses in my neighborhood have EVs. At the end of 2023 it's up to 36%. That's a lot of people who can still get an EV.

Regarding post-pandemic habits, I have friends who can get a L2 charger but never did for this very reason. That opens up even more households to EVs.

Finally I get that you want ROI now, but a lot of people are in it for the long game. Especially knowing that EVs are the future, I know I'd reach BE even if I had to wait 10 years.

For me, cost/charging was one of our lowest considerations. I enjoy the raw power and no more time wasted (the real cost) to the gas station. Sadly we rarely drive the Macan now. I am very interested in the Macan EV though as my S PDK even when it had Accessport pales in comparison to the power and smoothness (cornering aside) of my Rivian R1S.

 

[ericsan13]

I assume the same. At some point real estate agents should have a sense of the actual numbers and ROI.

Here in the land of Tesla it clearly is an incentive to Short Term Renters heading up to the coast or wine country.

At one point it will be a differentiator for those who have (money, house w/garage, L2 charger, EV) vs. those who don't (apartments without L2 chargers, garages).

 

[reguy]

I think it's difficult to say whether adding EV charging equipment to a home in the US will increase the market value of the home, especially at this point in time. To the extent many or most people seeking to purchase a home in the area have or plan to buy one or more EV vehicles, then it should be a plus. But, in the US, we're not there yet. Everyone I know uses the kitchen and the bathrooms in their home, so upgrading those home features will typically result in an increase in market value. This also assumes that the EV equipment that one installs remains current (no pun intended) and does not become obsolete. I cannot really see though the resulting increase in value exceeding much more than the cost of installing such equipment in an existing home, getting building department permits and approvals, and a factor for the general nuisance of having contractors work in your home.

 

[yrralis1]

I know you're exaggerating, but 99% of the country is not even close. "The widespread adoption of 200-amp electrical service in the United States became more common starting in the mid-20th century, particularly in the 1950s and 1960s." (ChatGPT lol)

There's a whole lot of houses who can get L2 chargers, we're just scratching the surface. In 2022 only 10% of the houses in my neighborhood have EVs. At the end of 2023 it's up to 36%. That's a lot of people who can still get an EV.

Regarding post-pandemic habits, I have friends who can get a L2 charger but never did for this very reason. That opens up even more households to EVs.

Finally I get that you want ROI now, but a lot of people are in it for the long game. Especially knowing that EVs are the future, I know I'd reach BE even if I had to wait 10 years.

For me, cost/charging was one of our lowest considerations. I enjoy the raw power and no more time wasted (the real cost) to the gas station. Sadly we rarely drive the Macan now. I am very interested in the Macan EV though as my S PDK even when it had Accessport pales in comparison to the power and smoothness (cornering aside) of my Rivian R1S.

If you want an EV that can actually drive Porsche does have it . Just be prepared to spend a lot of money to watch it vanish as the car evolves . Also hold your breath not just on battery longevity but in case that lithium battery ever catches fire . That boat sure did sink last year !! Also be aware that service not as as advanced because this is Porsche's first.

In case you haven't been watching the dual of Tesla pLaid Vs taycan even cheating Tesla lost . The first Plaid crashed . The second looked like it nearly was going to crash . The last one had a roll cage and a normal steering wheel (so much for being an ordinary car ) . They went cheering at the 7 min 25 sec time only to have it destroyed recently by Porsche ., https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/new-porsche-taycan-smashes-teslas-nurburgring-ev-lap-time-narrowly-misses-rimac#:~:text=Welcome to 2024!,of its arch rival Tesla.

Its not here yet .. but soon . they are saying "1000 Hp " in the journalist world . Porsche Taycan GT Seems Ultra Fast Testing For Nürburgring Lap Record

 

[95B3.6]

I cannot really see though the resulting increase in value exceeding much more than the cost of installing such equipment

Yes, I'd be shocked if it did. But if you could assume you'd get 50% or more back of what you put in, it changes the equation a bit...

 

[grim]

I know you're exaggerating, but 99% of the country is not even close. "The widespread adoption of 200-amp electrical service in the United States became more common starting in the mid-20th century, particularly in the 1950s and 1960s." (ChatGPT lol)

99% referred to the <1% EV vs ICE in the country. Those are the early adopters, the low hanging fruit. To be successful, now they got to get the other 99%

In regards to housing, ChatGPT is wrong,

30 AMP was prior to WWII
60 AMP post WWII
100 AMP in the 60s
200 AMP post 1980

When Did 200 Amp Service Become Standard? - Answered

Have you been pondering, “When did 200 amp service become standard?” This detailed answer takes you down the electrical history lane.

www.galvinpower.org

Why Upgrade To A 200 AMP Electric Panel • Genesis Electrical Service 2024

What is the difference between a 100 AMP electric panel and a 200 AMP electric panel? 2024

genesiselectric.com

.

Home more than 20 years old? Here’s why you need an electrical system checkup

Modern homes are jam-packed with devices and equipment that run all or most of the day – and that means your home’s electrical system is constantly working hard. If your home’s more than 20-years-o…

blog.hsb.com

its all over the internet, easy to find. So how many houses were built pre 1980 vs post 1980? What the area under the curve? Its not 99%, that the early adopters. But my guess is there are far more houses built pre-1980 vs post. From the Fed, who might actually know these numbers.

New Privately-Owned Housing Units Completed: Single-Family Units

Graph and download economic data for New Privately-Owned Housing Units Completed: Single-Family Units (COMPU1USA) from Jan 1968 to Aug 2025 about 1-unit structures, family, new, private, housing, and USA.

fred.stlouisfed.org

Number of houses built in the U.S. | Statista

The largest share of the housing stock in the United States as of 2021 was built between 1975 and 1979.

www.statista.com

.

The largest share of the housing stock in the United States as of 2021 was built between 1975 and 1979. There were 18.5 million homes built

There's a whole lot of houses who can get L2 chargers, we're just scratching the surface. In 2022 only 10% of the houses in my neighborhood have EVs. At the end of 2023 it's up to 36%. That's a lot of people who can still get an EV.

And I see few to none. In a 10 square mile, driving around, I see maybe 2 or 3. This is all location driven, we've been over this many posts ago. Some states have virtually zero registration. Even CA is only about 3%. You'd think they were breeding like rabbits. But not.

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Vehicle Registration Counts by State

Finally I get that you want ROI now, but a lot of people are in it for the long game. Especially knowing that EVs are the future, I know I'd reach BE even if I had to wait 10 years.

I don't know that and neither do you. Hydrogen might be the future. Some other alternative could be the future. Early Adopters take huge risks, pay the most money, and many times lose. Just ask all those people who bought Laser Disks players and Laser Disk libraries.

Even CA, the leader has more E85 vehicles than EVs. Amazing huh? I would never bet on EVs being the "future". The tech is in its infancy. And @yrralis1 has good points about Porsche and its electronic. Want a Porsche Charger? Thats $1,670 please

Porsche Wall Charger Connect | PORSCHE SHOP

Experience effortless EV charging with the Porsche-designed wall charger from the convenience of your own home.

shop.porsche.com

You just wait and see how often they change their electronics.

But even if were definitely the future, it would still have to be a break even point and my point was the less miles driven, the farther out, in years, it becomes. And by that I mean like 15 years.

 

[grim]

I think it's difficult to say whether adding EV charging equipment to a home in the US will increase the market value of the home, especially at this point in time. To the extent many or most people seeking to purchase a home in the area have or plan to buy one or more EV vehicles, then it should be a plus. But, in the US, we're not there yet. Everyone I know uses the kitchen and the bathrooms in their home, so upgrading those home features will typically result in an increase in market value.

There is a push in building codes to ensure that new housing comes with 50 amp circuits.

New Building Code Standards Will Require Wiring for EVSE

Your next home will probably be able to charge your car. As electric vehicle sales soar, local governments require builders to include EVSE-ready infrastructure in their new builds. Updated U.S. building codes are about to change drastically as soon as early 2021. Quartz reports that homes that...

blinkcharging.com

I am starting to see it locally as counties are making it a code requirement. Its like you house comes standard with a 30 AMP circuit for dryers. But when I grew up, people hanged their clothes on clothes lines. There were no dryers. Now everyone has a 30 amp, 240V circuit for the dryer.

This is the problem of having no foresight. No one thought of microwaves, powerful stereos, and everything plugged in.

How many people do NOT use a power strip. I can't plug in the stuff for one of my TVs (notice I said "ONE TV" and not "the TV". TV, Soundbar, Subwoofer, satellite speakers, Roku, Cable box, ethernet hub, router, there just aren't enough plugs.

Much of this is LOCATION driven, different people have different priorities.

 

[grim]

Here is some information for 100 Amp panels and load shifting

https://www.peninsulacleanenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Design-guidelines-for-home-electrification-v021023.pdf

Yeah, not buying into this either. Its just time shift things. Its does not solve the fundamental problem that the housing was never designed to handle the electrical loads and that means the House panel, and the distribution lines TO the house. If the electric company has to start digging the lines, putting in new lines, sigh ....

And it won't be one house. It will be ALL the houses in an area because at least most areas, all the houses are more or less built around the same time.

 

[yrralis1]

99% referred to the <1% EV vs ICE in the country. Those are the early adopters, the low hanging fruit. To be successful, now they got to get the other 99%

In regards to housing, ChatGPT is wrong,

30 AMP was prior to WWII
60 AMP post WWII
100 AMP in the 60s
200 AMP post 1980

When Did 200 Amp Service Become Standard? - Answered

Have you been pondering, “When did 200 amp service become standard?” This detailed answer takes you down the electrical history lane.

www.galvinpower.org

Why Upgrade To A 200 AMP Electric Panel • Genesis Electrical Service 2024

What is the difference between a 100 AMP electric panel and a 200 AMP electric panel? 2024

genesiselectric.com

.

Home more than 20 years old? Here’s why you need an electrical system checkup

Modern homes are jam-packed with devices and equipment that run all or most of the day – and that means your home’s electrical system is constantly working hard. If your home’s more than 20-years-o…

blog.hsb.com

its all over the internet, easy to find. So how many houses were built pre 1980 vs post 1980? What the area under the curve? Its not 99%, that the early adopters. But my guess is there are far more houses built pre-1980 vs post.

New Privately-Owned Housing Units Completed: Single-Family Units

Graph and download economic data for New Privately-Owned Housing Units Completed: Single-Family Units (COMPU1USA) from Jan 1968 to Aug 2025 about 1-unit structures, family, new, private, housing, and USA.

fred.stlouisfed.org

Number of houses built in the U.S. | Statista

The largest share of the housing stock in the United States as of 2021 was built between 1975 and 1979.

www.statista.com

.

The largest share of the housing stock in the United States as of 2021 was built between 1975 and 1979. There were 18.5 million homes built



And I see none. Zero. In a 10 square mile, driving around, I see maybe 2 or 3. This is all location driven, we've been over this many posts ago. Some states have virtually zero registration. Even CA is only about 3%. You'd think they were breeding like rabbits. But not.

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Vehicle Registration Counts by State

I don't know that and neither do you. Hydrogen might be the future. Some other alternative could be the future. Early Adopters take huge risks, pay the most money, and many times lose. Just ask all those people who bought Laser Disks players and Laser Disk libraries.

Look at the government stats above. AL has more biodiesel and far more E85 vehicles than EV but a wide margin. Even CA, the leader has more E85 vehicles than EVs. Amazing huh? I would never bet on EVs being the "future".

The tech is in its infancy. And @yrralis1 has good points about Porsche and its electronic. Want a Porsche Charger? Thats $1,670 please

Porsche Wall Charger Connect | PORSCHE SHOP

Experience effortless EV charging with the Porsche-designed wall charger from the convenience of your own home.

shop.porsche.com

You just wait and see how often they change their electronics.

I have a friend who has a collection of cars . He has EV , hybrid and Ice (including a Carrera T ) , His words to me were "you have to look at EV and Ice totally separate " . He also said " there will always be at least one Ice car" in his garage.

The real surprise for him was the hybrid . His wife is an EV queen and he thought for sure that she wanted to replace her Audi E Tron with another EV . to his surprise she drove a Rav 4 hybrid and picked that instead . They own several homes and never took their E Tron on the long trip between them . They can now take the Toyota anywhere without worry . Found town its in the electric mode . He has some insane figure that I dont recall on his first tank of gas . The worry is gone for her .

Now why go through all of this ? I keep telling you . Many are just fake do gooders . Others really think they are saving the planet . The only exception I can think of is the Taycan . It really is the more comfortable and stylish car than the Panamera ... BUT ... Its already dated. The refresh is going to CREAM the predecessor . Its like an iPhone (always changing ) . At 200K one needs deep pockets . Even a CPO is like a CPO iPhone ... you'll see . 2025 is the Taycan refresh .

 

[grim]

The refresh is going to CREAM the predecessor . Its like an iPhone (always changing ) . At 200K one needs deep pockets . Even a CPO is like a CPO iPhone ... you'll see . 2025 is the Taycan refresh .

yes, chasing technology is hopeless. You can reasonably do it.

For @ericsan13, here are the stories that are not part of "selling" cause it cost $$$$. The simple installations are the generic equipment with easy access.

Thinking of buying an electric car or truck? Don't ignore the additional cost of wiring your home for EV charging

Paying for a new electric vehicle is only part of the cost of ownership. Setting up a home-charging system can add thousands to the cost.

www.jsonline.com

What to Expect When You Have an EV Charger Installed in Your Home

We spent the day with an electrician who walked us through the EV charger home installation process. Here's what to expect and how much it'll cost you.

www.pcmag.com

 

[oqjnLu@>@W]

Even if the line isn't underground, there's significant co$t to have the power company run a new line from the pole to the structure.

Been there, done that...

In order for the buyers of a home I owned & sold years ago to proceed with the deal, they insisted that I upgrade the service from
60 amp to 200 amp. All that for a structure that had knob & tube wiring!

The electrician I hired asked if they were going to install a welding shop! The guy is an artist (painting).

I believe they were told by their friends that they "needed" 200 amp service. This was all for a 1700 sq. ft. home.

 

[ericsan13]

99% referred to the <1% EV vs ICE in the country. Those are the early adopters, the low hanging fruit. To be successful, now they got to get the other 99%

In regards to housing, ChatGPT is wrong,

30 AMP was prior to WWII
60 AMP post WWII
100 AMP in the 60s
200 AMP post 1980

When Did 200 Amp Service Become Standard? - Answered

Have you been pondering, “When did 200 amp service become standard?” This detailed answer takes you down the electrical history lane.

www.galvinpower.org

Why Upgrade To A 200 AMP Electric Panel • Genesis Electrical Service 2024

What is the difference between a 100 AMP electric panel and a 200 AMP electric panel? 2024

genesiselectric.com

.

Home more than 20 years old? Here’s why you need an electrical system checkup

Modern homes are jam-packed with devices and equipment that run all or most of the day – and that means your home’s electrical system is constantly working hard. If your home’s more than 20-years-o…

blog.hsb.com

its all over the internet, easy to find. So how many houses were built pre 1980 vs post 1980? What the area under the curve? Its not 99%, that the early adopters. But my guess is there are far more houses built pre-1980 vs post. From the Fed, who might actually know these numbers.

First search result shows half of all homes are built after 1980, as of August 2018. That means that probably by now more than half of homes support L2 charging (for those who just can't survive on L1).

Half of US Homes Built before 1980 | Eye On Housing

The median age of owner-occupied homes is 37 years, according to the latest data from the 2016 American Community Survey. Compared to a median age of 31 years in 2005, the U.S. owner-occupied housing stock is aging gradually. This aging trend is primarily because of modest gains in residential...

eyeonhousing.org

Then you have a lot of older homes that have been remodeled. >50% sounds like a lot of low hanging fruit to me.

Even CA, the leader has more E85 vehicles than EVs. Amazing huh? I would never bet on EVs being the "future". The tech is in its infancy. And @yrralis1 has good points about Porsche and its electronic. Want a Porsche Charger? Thats $1,670 please

For now. And no, why order a branded charger? And if you do care about a seriously overpriced charger, you probably are not in it for the value.

I don't know that and neither do you. Hydrogen might be the future. Some other alternative could be the future. Early Adopters take huge risks, pay the most money, and many times lose. Just ask all those people who bought Laser Disks players and Laser Disk libraries.

But even if were definitely the future, it would still have to be a break even point and my point was the less miles driven, the farther out, in years, it becomes. And by that I mean like 15 years.

True it is in its infancy but the growth has been staggering. Like I said just my neighborhood alone increased from 10% EV ownership to 28%, myself included. And you're right, I don't know for sure if EVs are the future, but for most people, it don't matter because they can easily call a electrician to install a L2 charger in their garage, next to their 200A service panel. And that's if they even bother to get an L2 charger since a lot of workplaces provide L2 charging with subsidies.

So while some wild alternatives like hydrogen might potentially be the future, it doesn't matter because EV offers a compelling value-proposition right now. L2 charging is not the blocker for most. I didn't even get around to installing a L2 charger until after 3 months of EV ownership.

 

[grim]

First search result shows half of all homes are built after 1980, as of August 2018. That means that probably by now more than half of homes support L2 charging (for those who just can't survive on L1).

Half of US Homes Built before 1980 | Eye On Housing

The median age of owner-occupied homes is 37 years, according to the latest data from the 2016 American Community Survey. Compared to a median age of 31 years in 2005, the U.S. owner-occupied housing stock is aging gradually. This aging trend is primarily because of modest gains in residential...

eyeonhousing.org

Current data by state, interesting, better not live in NY cause the median is 1960, or MA, PA, RI, or CT

Or worse the big cities where median in 1942 or so like San Francisco, see the list

The Median Age of Homes in the United States by Build Year (Data Study) - Today's Homeowner

Our home service experts analyzed U.S. census data to find the median age of homes in the United States, and grouped the data by state, county and city.

todayshomeowner.com

 

[ericsan13]

I believe they were told by their friends that they "needed" 200 amp service. This was all for a 1700 sq. ft. home.

It's possible they wanted an induction cooktop? Or a L2 charger?

 

[ericsan13]

Current data by state, interesting, better not live in NY cause the median is 1960, or MA, PA, RI, or CT

Or worse the big cities where median in 1942 or so like San Francisco, see the list

The Median Age of Homes in the United States by Build Year (Data Study) - Today's Homeowner

Our home service experts analyzed U.S. census data to find the median age of homes in the United States, and grouped the data by state, county and city.

todayshomeowner.com

Yeah it's definitely going to take time to penetrate into older cities and neighborhoods. I see the biggest opposition coming from apartment dwellers, who will have the slimmest chance of being able to charge at home.

But that's like all tech. Fiber internet still isn't in most places.

If half of homes support L2 charging though, that's still a very large addressable market.

 

[meerec]

That’s my point, it will start to be a become a lucrative addition in the same way as a recently redone Kitchen or bathroom. But only when EV sales increase to the point more people than not are driving them.

It’s happening already - exponentially - in aus 🇦🇺 // talking large cities not regional aus of course

 

[grim]

2025 is the Taycan refresh .

What a coincidence, from our sister forum

https://www.taycanevforum.com/threads/porsche-will-switch-to-nacs-in-2025.3313/

https://media.vw.com/en-us/releases/1774

 

[Mii]

If we can all agree that "EV is not for everyone", so is the gas tax subsidy toward funding EV infra! It's not in the future, all ICE owners are already paying gas tax in some states in the US! The underlying issue is beyond just infra, until EV resolves the battery flaming issue, toxic waste issue.

Some may have assumed people didn't experience with EV before commenting, in fact it's quite the opposite, people have family members who owned EV (now they can't even resale the used one with decent value), rental car with EV (which didn't provide additional versatility other than more range anxiety with potential breakdown). The early adopter phase is done, we're in the reality check phase!

Apart from all the short comings being discussed, EV and power grid are also facing higher risk of cyber security attack when it relies on network infra, and not all Auto makers are willing to invest in cyber security yet.

Bot Verification

The last thing people want to find out is that they are "not in control" of their own vehicle!

 

[ericsan13]

If we can all agree that "EV is not for everyone", so is the gas tax subsidy toward funding EV infra! It's not in the future, all ICE owners are already paying gas tax in some states in the US! The underlying issue is beyond just infra, until EV resolves the battery flaming issue, toxic waste issue.

This is the thing. If there is enough EV infra, then EVs can be for everyone. Everyone who is willing. Big If of course.

Next the battery flaming issue is a non-issue:
"According to information from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and EVFireSafe, 1 out of every 1,000 Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicles catch fire, where only 1 out of 83,333 EVs catch fire. This is a significant difference."
(Source: Burning Issues: The TRUTH About EV Battery Fires)
The reason people think it is an issue is either because the fire can be much larger and difficult to control, and of course the media and others cluelessly attacking EVs.

Apart from all the short comings being discussed, EV and power grid are also facing higher risk of cyber security attack when it relies on network infra, and not all Auto makers are willing to invest in cyber security yet.

Bot Verification

The last thing people want to find out is that they are "not in control" of their own vehicle!

Is this any worse than US reliance on gas from OPEC+ and their cartel pricing? Should we get our gas from Russia instead? National security is a big part of the push to EVs. You could argue that decentralized electricity and EV manufacturing is both the cause and solution to mass hacking. Also with all the connected ICE cars, I don't believe ICE is immune from the hacking problem either.