[sergeyb]

I had a wonderful EV day today with almost 7 hours of in town driving from 4am to 8pm covering 204 miles in sublime comfort with a lot of stop/go, waiting for things, and picking up dropping off taking care of family with supreme in cabin all systems on (heat/cool/massage) with no exhaust. That cost me 81.6kW x 13.74c = $11.21 since I charged at home. This could be free if I would use free to me public charging. My home setup may not be typical with one time cost $400 labor and $400 charger with 30% tax credit up to $1,000 in 2023.

Taycan is not very efficient (2.5mi/kWh vs. Tesla 4.5mi/kWh if you believe them) but it is a sports car of EVs so that does not matter to me since performance and handling is second to none and I pass them often in a blink of time. I charged 100% overnight since I knew it will be a long day. That was enough to last all day with 81.6kWh used. This is a perfect use case for anyone considering Macan EV.

 

[ericsan13]

The is a LOT to unpack here so I will do it in pieces. I said before, I can see an EV as a "runabout" for town. But I am NOT willing to sink $6K+ into equipment, services, permits, etc. because:

1. I might hate an EV
2. I might move
3. I'll never see the ROI, never. Even if it increasing my base, its a pittance or nothing falling under the exemption

The biggest problem I see for people sinking money into home charging is the lack of foresight. It seems 64 AMPs is needed for at 50 AMP circuit. I think that shortsighted in that if all the "predictions" ever came true, ALL the cars would be EV. I got neighbors with FIVE cars. What are they going to do with ONE 50 amp circuit? I'd go 400 AMP service minimum and never the minimum. You can never have enough electrons. Just look at the vast number of electronics in houses today that no on ever knew would be invented 40 years ago.

So why should I sink money into something with no returns and could end up as a paperweight? And then do it over and over again in the next house. Weird. Now if it were free, then it might be something to consider, but forcing me to buy equipment. No, bad idea. Its not like spending $100 for a cassette component and then $150 for a CD player. We are talking THOUSANDS.

Yikes, if this is your biggest problem then I have good news for you. It cost me $600 to install a 60A circuit and $400 for a L2 40A charger. But guess what I use most of the time? I use the regular 120V wall charger because that's all I need for my daily commute.

If for some reason I take a longer trip or my wife parks head in, then I use the L2 charger. I see no problems having five cars at my house and keeping them juiced. It's an extreme use case and I can't deplete all five cars that easily. And if I wanted to, I could easily add a 2nd L2 charger to my house for a total of 3 chargers (2x L2, 1xL1). At that point I have enough capacity to charge for public usage.

Anyway if I can afford a Porsche EV or most of the expensive EVs already out there, I'm definitely not going to sweat over a $1k home charger. I'll more than make that up saving on gas. And if I move it's not a big loss either as with any of the home renovations you do, it still adds value.

I can also charge at work or outside the home if I didn't want to install a L2 charger or if I expected to move.

And sure, some people live in apartments or places they can't install a charger. Some people have sucky long commutes. Some people take roadtrips a lot. EVs are not for everyone.

 

[EdwardATX]

The free market is not speaking in the EV world where "mandates" are forcing the issue. Another analogy.

Incandescent bulbs were banned. People HORDED them. They were dirt cheap, could be bought by the case. Buy CFLs! Yeah, no, the horror stories came out about if you break them, it spills mercury and don't touch them, don't vacuum them, and people hated. They were not accepted. Then LEDs, the price was high, not accepted until the prices fell way down. Now the market place has settled as a free market as prices have dropped to reasonable levels, you can use them in enclosed fixtures and wet locations, and CFLs are a bad dream in a far away place.

OTOH, Coca Cola FORCED people to buy "New Coke" Oops, Big failure. they had to bring back "Classic Coke". Don't mess with success.

I'm going to respond with just one off-topic comparison, if you'll allow me to indulge to respond to your comparison.

When tobacco use peaked in the mid-1960s, more than 40 percent of the U.S. adult population smoked cigarettes. [NIH]
Annual per capita cigarette consumption increased from 54 cigarettes in 1900 to 4345 cigarettes in 1963 and then decreased to 2261 in 1998. [CDC]
Governments at all levels banned smoking in restaurants, offices, and airplanes. The US states governments' lawsuit against Big Tobacco was settled for $206B. The result? Heavy-handed government mandates and legal actions really did curb smoking to the point where I can't think of the last time I saw a group of people smoking cigarettes. The Big Tobacco companies, not wanting to die, moved on to smokeless products and continue to make money.

This is to say that an EV mandate from governments globally are not going to cause decades' worth of ICE cars to disappear overnight. It will lead to a transition where ICE will fall out of favor among a substantial part of the population. Just as kids no longer think of Joe Camel or the Marlboro Man as cool, the generation (or two) after you & I may not find ICE cars (or cars at all) cool.

There's no dispute -- ICE cars have been successful. And so were tobacco companies, for an even longer period of time. The free market chooses quite a few things, but public policy and financial incentives / disincentives also power change.

 

[EdwardATX]

This is a problem of SUCCESS, of INNOVATION, of being FIRST. The major powers, on both sides, made tech advantages from WWII, including Germany inventing synthetic gas. After WWII these inventions became mainstream in the US. Every home got a TV, got major appliances, and new electronics. The country was built out on copper. POTS was pushed out to the most rural areas.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world was, lets say lacking in some tech. Its now "today". We have this massive POTS system sitting and now rotting in houses while much of the ROW had nothing. All the innovation, new inventions went to the major powers (e.g, UK, US, etc) and some other country had no innovations.

Suddenly, they got everything. Some company goes into the country and puts in 5G. They have the latest tech while some people in the US have 3G, or whatever. See? Thats the price of being first.

Think of like TVs today. As a kid, I got to see THREE stations, live, on a B&W 19" TV. Today, a 10 year old can watch ANY show they want, in 4K, streamed to their phone. They have ZERO life experience that a 50 year old has today and have no idea what its like to have to wait for OTA B&W live broadcasts. IOW, they have instant tech. They never had to go through the innovations.

So "no civilized country" does credit car mag stripe swipe? I had to do it the other day. Cause "we" live in a country where the tech has existed for decades and the entire infrastructure has to be updated. How long, since the 70s? while the other countries got it recently. See the difference? Its the price of being "first".

I don't think its "complacency" but the vast cost of upgrading major components of this huge country. Meanwhile, the new kids of the block get all the new tech toys ... instantly. See?

We are in agreement here. The US has creaky old infrastructure. I was being tongue-in-cheek regarding credit card mag stripe swipe -- that tech was invented in the 1960s, is completely insecure, and banks offer no fraud liability protection to merchants accepting that payment method. Yet, some US retailers still do mag stripe swipe while others do chip & signature. Both are antiquated compared to NFC tap via card or phone.

There is no motivation to innovate with US infrastructure. What happens when successful companies fail to innovate because what they have is good enough? Ask anyone under 18 if they know what is Xerox, Kodak, or IBM. Failure to innovate is how we think it's acceptable to pay $75/month for 5G cellular service that is surpassed in the ROW -- because the Big 3 cell carriers see no need to "do better".

This is the part where private industry can either stand up and lead OR government needs to intervene through policy and funding. The US government paid for much of AT&T's monopoly on POTS in the 20th century, including that $0.xx/month fee for rural connections that we all paid. I could see a future where a $0.xx/gallon tax on gas goes towards funding EV charging hookups for underserved communities.

Saying that things are expensive, thus we shouldn't do it is how the US ended up with no state-of-the-art semiconductor fabs. When American automakers needed chips for cars, where was their supply chain? Gone overseas because upgrading old fabs to the latest process node (<10 nm) was too hard or too expensive.

There is a price for being "first". But with that can come a cost which RCA, Blockbuster, PanAm, and Sears all bear examples of.

 

[EdwardATX]

Sure, EVs will happen, and hopefully in a free market. Let the consumer decide. Just like the consumer decided what Coca Cola could do with their "New Coke". And if we get left in the Dust? So what? We are still using pounds, ounces, inches, etc and doing just fine. I can't go into the "controversial" areas so I just tried to discuss your points. The infrastructure will change in due course, just as POTS gave way to Cable and gave way to fiber. But it aint going to happen in the same time frame as a third world country that had no infrastructure to speak of.

America went from no airplanes to a man on the moon in 60 years. With less computing power than what's in your Macan's PCM. When there's a will, there's a way.

For now, Chinese EVs will not flood the US market due to prohibitively high tariffs. I thought all Chinese EVs were garbage until I watched this YouTube video of a Chinese auto show. They will flood every non-US market with cheap, workable EVs. Which means these countries won't buy exported American cars. Which means American automakers now need to amortize development costs against a smaller base of products. Which means components from the supply chain will be more expensive due to smaller volumes, if they're still being made by suppliers who'd rather sell to growing EV demand.

This "doom loop" will happen because there are planned economies by governments willing to splash out incentives to drive EV adoption. Norway's new car market is now 87% EV, and their electrical grid has not collapsed. Australia now has zero local car manufacturing due to a variety of reasons, but chief among them is an inability to export products at a competitive price. As cool as a Holden Commodore V8 was, there just wasn't enough enthusiast demand in the Australian domestic market or abroad to support the company building it (or any other Holden car).

If we restrict our definition of "free market" to just US, then you are entirely correct. But in a global market, can we expect the US government to bail out American automakers again when they've bet wrong?

 

[yrralis1]

I'm going to respond with just one off-topic comparison, if you'll allow me to indulge to respond to your comparison.

When tobacco use peaked in the mid-1960s, more than 40 percent of the U.S. adult population smoked cigarettes. [NIH]
Annual per capita cigarette consumption increased from 54 cigarettes in 1900 to 4345 cigarettes in 1963 and then decreased to 2261 in 1998. [CDC]
Governments at all levels banned smoking in restaurants, offices, and airplanes. The US states governments' lawsuit against Big Tobacco was settled for $206B. The result? Heavy-handed government mandates and legal actions really did curb smoking to the point where I can't think of the last time I saw a group of people smoking cigarettes. The Big Tobacco companies, not wanting to die, moved on to smokeless products and continue to make money.

This is to say that an EV mandate from governments globally are not going to cause decades' worth of ICE cars to disappear overnight. It will lead to a transition where ICE will fall out of favor among a substantial part of the population. Just as kids no longer think of Joe Camel or the Marlboro Man as cool, the generation (or two) after you & I may not find ICE cars (or cars at all) cool.

There's no dispute -- ICE cars have been successful. And so were tobacco companies, for an even longer period of time. The free market chooses quite a few things, but public policy and financial incentives / disincentives also power change.

The smoking analogy is a red herring. The only reason why smoking is legal even to this day is because of the revenue that brought in by cigarettes to the government. They started changing the laws because the research linked a cause and effect relationship to many illnesses. In the 1940s they didn’t know half of what they learned by the 1960s. This has nothing to do with electric vehicles though.

I have a better analogy. Have you ever as a child held your breath underwater with a few friends, to see who could hold it the longest ? it used to be a fun game that we played at swim practice as children. It’s incredible how long some people can hold their breath. Now it’s one thing to voluntarily dunk your head and play a little contest and quite another when someone is pushing your head down and holding it under water. Legislators globally are holding the head of auto manufacturers underwater. It’s not a game either. They took Porsche at the height of its strength and dunked its head. Had they decided to make an electric vehicle on their own volition it would’ve been an entirely different scenario. They were given no choice. That is what I’ve been arguing since the beginning - CHOICE!

 

[grim]

I'm going to respond with just one off-topic comparison, if you'll allow me to indulge to respond to your comparison.

Analogies are fine. Its not OT when its used to explain your position.

We cannot get into the controversy (eg climate arguments, real or not) as that is not permitted but the laws, mandates, etc are fine NO political/controversial posts are permitted, except when directly related to the Porsche Macan, for example, new legislation regarding automobiles and climate issues pertaining to the movement to Electric Vehicles.

When tobacco use peaked in the mid-1960s, more than 40 percent of the U.S. adult population smoked cigarettes. [NIH]
Annual per capita cigarette consumption increased from 54 cigarettes in 1900 to 4345 cigarettes in 1963 and then decreased to 2261 in 1998. [CDC]
Governments at all levels banned smoking in restaurants, offices, and airplanes. The US states governments' lawsuit against Big Tobacco was settled for $206B. The result? Heavy-handed government mandates and legal actions really did curb smoking to the point where I can't think of the last time I saw a group of people smoking cigarettes. The Big Tobacco companies, not wanting to die, moved on to smokeless products and continue to make money.

As @yrralis1 noted this as a red herring, but more, its a false equivalence.

Sure, smoking is now down to 14%? But that's still MILLIONS of people. And why? Sin tax. They tried banning alcohol and that failed. They knew they could not ban tobacco, and now they allow MJ. How does that make sense other than to collect tax revenues they are missing out on? But its the false equivalence that stand outs.

People KNOW, its without question, that if you smoke the risk of actually dying is vastly greater. Its been known, as fact, for 50 years. AND STILL people take up smoking.

There is no evidence that not buying an EV will lead to your death because you chose, as an individual, not to buy one. This is a false equivalence.

 

[grim]

Yikes, if this is your biggest problem then I have good news for you. It cost me $600 to install a 60A circuit and $400 for a L2 40A charger. But guess what I use most of the time? I use the regular 120V wall charger because that's all I need for my daily commute.

If for some reason I take a longer trip or my wife parks head in, then I use the L2 charger. I see no problems having five cars at my house and keeping them juiced. It's an extreme use case and I can't deplete all five cars that easily. And if I wanted to, I could easily add a 2nd L2 charger to my house for a total of 3 chargers (2x L2, 1xL1). At that point I have enough capacity to charge for public usage.

Anyway if I can afford a Porsche EV or most of the expensive EVs already out there, I'm definitely not going to sweat over a $1k home charger. I'll more than make that up saving on gas. And if I move it's not a big loss either as with any of the home renovations you do, it still adds value.

I can also charge at work or outside the home if I didn't want to install a L2 charger or if I expected to move.

And sure, some people live in apartments or places they can't install a charger. Some people have sucky long commutes. Some people take roadtrips a lot. EVs are not for everyone.

I don't think you read what I said. Its NOT $1K. Its a minimum $6K probably more than $7K. I explained why.

1. Move 100 to 200 AMPS
2. New Breaker Box
3. Pulling lines across the house, long distance

and 4, our electric is buried. Electric likely has to do trenching to install new service. These costs are IN ADDITION to the hardware and labor fees you encountered.

What is the ROI? I see none. Variables are cost of gas, MPG, cost of electric, number of miles driven. In what year would I break even nm start saving money? I plugged the numbers into a calculator and its more than 10 year, maybe 15 years

Total waste of money and time. Who knows what happens in 10 years. The number of miles you drive matters a GREAT deal and post pandemic, at the moment its not much, unlike 10 years ago.

Poor to none ROI, in fact, it would be a LOSS of money.

One article in PA, $4200 to $5000 to increase service

https://www.midpennelectrical.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace-a-panel-or-upgrade-a-panel-to-200-amps

Its location dependent. In GA $3500 to $4500

How Much Does It Cost to Upgrade to 200 Amp Service? - Kalahari Electrical Services

Does your home's electrical not quite support all the devices you need for your modern lifestyle? Unfortunately, it's a common problem in older homes. If so, you may be wondering how much it might cost to upgrade to 200-amp service. Keep reading to explore the details, including how much you can...

kalahari-electrical.com

 

[grim]

They took Porsche at the height of its strength and dunked its head. Had they decided to make an electric vehicle on their own volition it would’ve been an entirely different scenario. They were given no choice. That is what I’ve been arguing since the beginning - CHOICE!

PAG had JUST returned to Le Mans, just started to win again, and EU regulations killed it all. They had ZERO choice but to comply or be fined out of business.

Yes, imagine what they COULD have built if the free market had been allowed to operate as it should have been, and developed in the time frame appropriate to the advances in technology, rather than being rushed on on some arbitrary EU schedule.

 

[grim]

America went from no airplanes to a man on the moon in 60 years. With less computing power than what's in your Macan's PCM. When there's a will, there's a way.

I'm not sure how that relates but OK. That only holds up as long as Moores Law holds and last I read, Moores Law is about over.

Norway's new car market is now 87% EV, and their electrical grid has not collapsed.

Another false equivalence. There is no way you can scale Norway to the US. Norway is blessed with the ability to export oil (as is the US) but has an abundance of its electric powered by hydro. This is easy to look up in wiki, a few years ago it was 99% hydro and today 88%. Have you ever watched hydro work? Its on demand, as electricity is on demand. When demand grows, they just open up more gates. The raptors love it. The fish get stunned coming through the gates and the raptors swoop down for lunch. No demand? They turn off the gates. How much hydro is in the USA? Easy to look up, 6%. VASTLY different. Hydro is great. They ought to build more of them.

The population of Norway fits into the metro Phoenix area. Its a TINY population. There are less than 6M cars vs 286M in the US. How about charging stations on the highways. Norway has 100K KM, the US has 6.6M. IOW, Norway has 1.5% the amount of roads. 100,000 vs 6,600,000 km. There is NO WAY you can compare Norway to the US. They should not be spoke in the same breath with the USA, in sense of scale. It doesn't scale up.

 

[grim]

We are in agreement here. The US has creaky old infrastructure. I was being tongue-in-cheek regarding credit card mag stripe swipe -- that tech was invented in the 1960s, is completely insecure, and banks offer no fraud liability protection to merchants accepting that payment method. Yet, some US retailers still do mag stripe swipe while others do chip & signature. Both are antiquated compared to NFC tap via card or phone.

There is no motivation to innovate with US infrastructure. What happens when successful companies fail to innovate because what they have is good enough? Ask anyone under 18 if they know what is Xerox, Kodak, or IBM. Failure to innovate is how we think it's acceptable to pay $75/month for 5G cellular service that is surpassed in the ROW -- because the Big 3 cell carriers see no need to "do better".

This is the part where private industry can either stand up and lead OR government needs to intervene through policy and funding. The US government paid for much of AT&T's monopoly on POTS in the 20th century, including that $0.xx/month fee for rural connections that we all paid. I could see a future where a $0.xx/gallon tax on gas goes towards funding EV charging hookups for underserved communities.

Saying that things are expensive, thus we shouldn't do it is how the US ended up with no state-of-the-art semiconductor fabs. When American automakers needed chips for cars, where was their supply chain? Gone overseas because upgrading old fabs to the latest process node (<10 nm) was too hard or too expensive.

There is a price for being "first". But with that can come a cost which RCA, Blockbuster, PanAm, and Sears all bear examples of.

The price of being first, especially on the scale of the USA, which is vast, is change is slow. I agree. It happens when it happens and there has to be a REASON for the consumers to decide when to change. So Coca Cola saw the push back and decided to sell New Coke to the young people because they wanted "sweet" like Pepsi and Classic Coke to the people who drank Coke for 50 years.

But this part is where we are going to disagree "This is the part where private industry can either stand up and lead OR government needs to intervene through policy and funding."

I need to stop here because now it will become political. Policies come and go in the wind. They are, by definitions, not LAW, but a policy changed with a stroke of a pen. Here today, gone tomorrow. But Hydro sounds good. Build some more dams or nuke plants. I can't say anymore. Lets just drop this one particular line of discussion.

 

[Footie]

When you hear the money manufacturers like Porsche are putting into the development of EV technology you have to admit to yourself whether you agree with EVs or not that they are here to stay.

Clearly they know something we don’t.

 

[Footie]

I don't think you read what I said. Its NOT $1K. Its a minimum $6K probably more than $7K. I explained why.

1. Move 100 to 200 AMPS
2. New Breaker Box
3. Pulling lines across the house, long distance

and 4, our electric is buried. Electric likely has to do trenching to install new service. These costs are IN ADDITION to the hardware and labor fees you encountered.

What is the ROI? I see none. Variables are cost of gas, MPG, cost of electric, number of miles driven. In what year would I break even nm start saving money? I plugged the numbers into a calculator and its more than 10 year, maybe 15 years

Total waste of money and time. Who knows what happens in 10 years. The number of miles you drive matters a GREAT deal and post pandemic, at the moment its not much, unlike 10 years ago.

Poor to none ROI, in fact, it would be a LOSS of money.

One article in PA, $4200 to $5000 to increase service

https://www.midpennelectrical.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace-a-panel-or-upgrade-a-panel-to-200-amps

Its location dependent. In GA $3500 to $4500

How Much Does It Cost to Upgrade to 200 Amp Service? - Kalahari Electrical Services

Does your home's electrical not quite support all the devices you need for your modern lifestyle? Unfortunately, it's a common problem in older homes. If so, you may be wondering how much it might cost to upgrade to 200-amp service. Keep reading to explore the details, including how much you can...

kalahari-electrical.com

I think each country will vary greatly with regards to installation prices and this does indeed has to be factored in calculating the break even time. For me the install and unit with government incentives was £350, my fuel bill monthly averages out around £60-65 now compared to £230 before. Per year I am saving about £2K on fuel, but over a 3 year ownership I will have an extra set of tyres which amount to £1k. So over 3 years I will have saved approximate £5k but depending on your country there are other financial incentives for switching to an EV that make this price balloon even more, especially if you are a business customer.

 

[95B3.6]

I wonder if added charging infrastructure in a home might eventually prove to be like kitchens and bathrooms with a decent return on the investment.

I have noticed short-term rentals embracing installation.

 

[Footie]

I wonder if added charging infrastructure in a home might eventually prove to be like kitchens and bathrooms with a decent return on the investment.

I have noticed short-term rentals embracing installation.

As EVs become all the more common and more and more people starting owning them well then if you are looking to move house having an EV charger already install is a bonus.

 

[sctw]

Macan EV is launching end of 2024 as a 2025 model correct? With VW Group (Porsche, Audi, VW, Scout) announcing they are adopting NACS starting in 2025 wonder if the Macan EV will include NACS.

Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche and Scout Motors brands to implement the North American Charging Standard in future electric vehicles

Future Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche and Scout electric vehicles to use the North American Charging Standard (NACS) charging port, starting in 2025

newsroom.porsche.com

 

[ericsan13]

I don't think you read what I said. Its NOT $1K. Its a minimum $6K probably more than $7K. I explained why.

1. Move 100 to 200 AMPS
2. New Breaker Box
3. Pulling lines across the house, long distance

and 4, our electric is buried. Electric likely has to do trenching to install new service. These costs are IN ADDITION to the hardware and labor fees you encountered.

What is the ROI? I see none. Variables are cost of gas, MPG, cost of electric, number of miles driven. In what year would I break even nm start saving money? I plugged the numbers into a calculator and its more than 10 year, maybe 15 years

Total waste of money and time. Who knows what happens in 10 years. The number of miles you drive matters a GREAT deal and post pandemic, at the moment its not much, unlike 10 years ago.

Poor to none ROI, in fact, it would be a LOSS of money.

One article in PA, $4200 to $5000 to increase service

https://www.midpennelectrical.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace-a-panel-or-upgrade-a-panel-to-200-amps

Its location dependent. In GA $3500 to $4500

How Much Does It Cost to Upgrade to 200 Amp Service? - Kalahari Electrical Services

Does your home's electrical not quite support all the devices you need for your modern lifestyle? Unfortunately, it's a common problem in older homes. If so, you may be wondering how much it might cost to upgrade to 200-amp service. Keep reading to explore the details, including how much you can...

kalahari-electrical.com

Granted I did not read the first ~200 posts where you may have explained where you got that $6K from, but in general it costs most households around $1k when the breaker box does not need to be upgraded. Sounds like you have an older house, so you probably fall into the category that a L2 charger will not work for. Regardless, depending on your commute you could probably get away with the L1 charger as I have been doing.

My local utility covers half the cost of a breaker box upgrade so that is something you should consider. But with a service size of 100A you have extra hoops to jump through to reach L2.

Anyway there does not need to be a hate-it attitude just because it might not work in your situation. As I demonstrated in my post a lot of households can install a L2 charger fairly easily and support multiple EVs with it, and at a cost-savings.

 

[grim]

Granted I did not read the first ~200 posts where you may have explained where you got that $6K from, but in general it costs most households around $1k when the breaker box does not need to be upgraded. Sounds like you have an older house, so you probably fall into the category that a L2 charger will not work for. Regardless, depending on your commute you could probably get away with the L1 charger as I have been doing.

My local utility covers half the cost of a breaker box upgrade so that is something you should consider. But with a service size of 100A you have extra hoops to jump through to reach L2.

Anyway there does not need to be a hate-it attitude just because it might not work in your situation. As I demonstrated in my post a lot of households can install a L2 charger fairly easily and support multiple EVs with it, and at a cost-savings.

I don't hate it. I explicitly said I could see it for an about town runabout. But people need to understand that the "low hanging fruit" have been picked. Now they got to handle the other 99% of the country.

Mileage is a big deal. There needs to be a breakeven point before savings are realized. My mileage is WAY down post pandemic. No more driving 12K miles/year, now its more a toy than anything else. I plugged the numbers in via local utility and the breakeven point is more than a decade away. There is just no ROI.

L1 is just too low. If I want power, I want it NOW. We live in a I want it now, society

 

[95B3.6]

already install is a bonus.

Of course. My comment was in regards to the investment return of such a home improvement.

 

[Footie]

Of course. My comment was in regards to the investment return of such a home improvement.

That’s my point, it will start to be a become a lucrative addition in the same way as a recently redone Kitchen or bathroom. But only when EV sales increase to the point more people than not are driving them.