With regard to battery maintenance, I saw the following from Car and Driver (link below), in addition to tons of other literature out there.

"The National Renewable Energy Laboratory of the United States predicts today's EV batteries will have service lives between 12 and 15 years if used in moderate climates. This falls to between 8 and 12 years if regular use occurs in extreme environments.
Regardless, EV batteries require next-to-no maintenance throughout their service life. That said, there are a number of things drivers can do to extend the service life of their EV's battery pack."

Electric Car Maintenance: Everything You Need to Knowwww.caranddriver.com

I'm sure dealerships will figure it out. From my perspective they have always been quite resourceful in solving problems and passing associated increased costs along to others (guess who?), and I spend as much time worrying about them as they do about me.

 

With regard to battery maintenance, I saw the following from Car and Driver (link below), in addition to tons of other literature out there.

"The National Renewable Energy Laboratory of the United States predicts today's EV batteries will have service lives between 12 and 15 years if used in moderate climates. This falls to between 8 and 12 years if regular use occurs in extreme environments.
Regardless, EV batteries require next-to-no maintenance throughout their service life. That said, there are a number of things drivers can do to extend the service life of their EV's battery pack."

Electric Car Maintenance: Everything You Need to Knowwww.caranddriver.com

I'm sure dealerships will figure it out. From my perspective they have always been quite resourceful in solving problems and passing associated increased costs along to others (guess who?), and I spend as much time worrying about them as they do about me.

The longevity is dependent on proper maintenance. It can die quite easily and much quicker than what most are accustomed to . Add to the mix that Porsche was back ordered and out of stock last year . This is with minimal exposure . A (approx ) 30K a year production car cant be short on a part like this .

 

First off I am not pro EV guy. I just don’t get the whole EV thing call me old call ignorant we are each allowed to have our opinions but if someone thinks EV cars are going to save the environment I don’t think it is going to happen because we will find something else to replace all of the carbon emissions that EV cars will save and have the same amount of pollution call me cynical. I know the current Macan is Porsche’s cash cow however I see alot of base macans on the road where I live about 20+ a day and very few GTS’s. that being said I think a lot of the people who buy macans are not going to shell out $120,000 for a Macan. I see a lot of people paying $25-$35k for used ones. The people who can afford a new gts or S might be able to but that is far and few between and I live in a very wealthy area of the country. I don’t see how Porsche can get the EV down to ICe Macan prices. I am not even talking about if the dealers will have the room in their shops to work on them.

I highly question whether the Porsche EV buyer cares about the environment as much as they want others to believe they do (fake do gooders ) . It will match their recycle trash cans in the driveway though .

 

😂 Totally agree.

 

I think that's a valid point. It will be a challenge for Porsche and all other automakers. I guess the idea is to market the thought that BEV cars will be cheaper to maintain than ICE cars (no more $500 oil change). There's also the U.S. Federal tax credit (subject to income limitations) but there's the requirement that the vehicle MSRP cannot exceed $80,000 for an suv. That will be an additional challenge for Porsche. With regard to customer motives, there are many who want to be driving a car with the latest technology, and a brand that has sex appeal (point for Porsche).

If a SUV/CUV has to have a MSRP of $80,000 Porsche has already priced themselves out, it is my understanding that the Macan EV starts at $110,000 and goes up from there. Maybe Porsche gets around it by saying a chassis, battery, 4 wheels and a steering wheel and shell is what you get for $80,000 and then you add your OPTIONS which will easily get you to $110,000+.

 

To me. I am not the usual SUV buyer. And I don't think you are either. I have always bought small, two seater cars. The 911 is HUGE. A Macan is WAY to wide. Its more a necessity, a practical thing. To "me", its not "a joy to drive". Its utilitarian. It can be in snow, or to haul a bunch of stuff.

I think you are a sports car type too. The "sound" is part of the experience. Everyone knows that open headers, for example, meant more power at one time. Now, ... silence is the sound of death ...

No, I have not adapted. I have zero intention of owning any EV at this time. But to the vast majority, like 95% of SUV buyers, sounds means NOTHING.

Its just another washing machine. Who cares what a washing machine sounds like? Do you listen to your washing machine? I'm sure some people go their living rooms and turn on there stereos, just like in an EV, to them, the sound of silence is golden, so they can crank up those fancy car stereos.




Read the Tesla reviews, some on youtube. The masses can be clueless. 12V battery for what? They don't know it even exists.

You know very well what "Porsche" owners will do. They will buy a $100,000 car and * and moan about replacing a $1000 part today. So they buy a $150,000 Taycan and complain about a $2500 part.

Its a consumable. So don't buy it. Don't get RAS. Consumables are never warrantied.



12 years ago I wondered about lithium cells. I bought a few LED flashlights and 18650 batteries. Well, those batteries work today just as good as the day I bought them. And most of the time they just sit around doing nothing. Its not like a homeowner uses flashlights every day.

I no longer own anything gas operated for residential use. There simply is no longer a need to store gasoline.

@yrralis1 I get it, from the other thread with the member who put down a deposit. You wanted him to think about it some more.

Everyone is different. All our mindsets are different. For many people, and I am not talking about the person who put down the deposit, its really is just a tool. Its no different than going out and buying a battery operated leaf blower vs a gas operated leaf blower. Its .... just a tool. And I think this is where the disjoint is from your POV and for many others.

Most people do NOT have a passion about cars. They care about the color of their car more than "how it makes them feel". They do not "drive" just to hear that wail (well no wail in a V6). Its just another washing machine.

I get your POV here is from the consumer experience going to the dealer. Until about 2016, I just pulled up to my dealer and he worked on the sports cars. No appointments, just walk in, give them the keys. From 2017 until 2019, they needed to expand. Not enough bays or mechanics. Then the pandemic screwed up everything.

So they got to learn new stuff. Boo hoo. They had to learn about the Macan too. Its not a flat 6 is it? They will or they will go out of business. And they will be learning on your fancy new electric Macan.

Early adopters ALWAYS get the short end of the stick. Always. They pay through the nose cause things don't work. So let the early adopters do their thing. Meanwhile the mechanics will learn on them, and not on YOU.

Or be bold, view the vehicle as an APPLIANCE, a TOOL, and not as an object of passion. And you won't care anymore. Its just like the fancy new TV I bought in the early 2000s, with this fancy new High Definition that NO ONE was broadcasting. Totally useless and the price was insanely high. And when it broke, it had a very expensive light I had to have someone come in and replace until I figured out I could do it. And today? No one fixes TVs. They just throw them away and buy a new one and all the content is 4K and 8K is coming.

lesson? Consumables are consumables. Deal with it. Don't like it, don't buy it.

You just need a different POV. Its just a tool.

😂 Totally agree.

There are these brief moments where we are more alike . I will miss the Macan .

 

Most people do NOT have a passion about cars. They care about the color of their car more than "how it makes them feel". They do not "drive" just to hear that wail (well no wail in a V6). Its just another washing machine.

This is true. Very few current Macan owners have an emotional connection to what Porsche used to represent or to the classic driving experience however some may have an emotional connection to the "user experience", similar to Apple products. I think this is what most car manufacturers nowadays are trying to replicate, which is beyond mere brand loyalty but good luck with that.

Or be bold, view the vehicle as an APPLIANCE, a TOOL, and not as an object of passion. And you won't care anymore. Its just like the fancy new TV I bought in the early 2000s, with this fancy new High Definition that NO ONE was broadcasting. Totally useless and the price was insanely high.

Don't forget those who run out to buy 3D TVs a few years back

 

This is true. Very few current Macan owners have an emotional connection to what Porsche used to represent or to the classic driving experience however some may have an emotional connection to the "user experience", similar to Apple products. I think this is what most car manufacturers nowadays are trying to replicate, which is beyond mere brand loyalty but good luck with that.

Don't forget those who run out to buy 3D TVs a few years back

When the forum started, I repeatedly "tried" to get people to sign up for PCA. I tried to get them to at least get the discount. But after being at many PCA events, the fact is, SUV buyers don't go. They don't got to Greet and Meets, tours, tech sessions, or any of the routine events that the sports car buyers do. I doubt you will find a single Porscephile, or few, among Macan buyers.

Its just another CUV for many. Its not a passion. And I'm not saying that because I don't know. There is a massive difference between taking any of the sports cars out and a CUV.

 

Long time Macan and Cayenne owner who recently bought a Taycan. I have never owned or driven sports cars such as 911s or owned an EV before. This is what I can share.

Porsche Dealerships servicing/repair Taycan or Macan EV: Our dealership had to repurpose existing workshop space used for ICE models repair and service into EV service and repair by getting special lift and EV battery replacement hardware and forced by corporate to install a DC charger by having to rip out the existing parking lot (for wiring) and taking a lot of premium ICE parking spaces. The point being is that they are forced to do all this and take away ICE space (which is where the service money is made) and they are hating every bit of it, and they sure do not want Taycan customers charging at that charger after they spent $250K under corporate pressure to do so by deferring it for as many years as possible. They have Taycan trained techs to perform PDI service, software updates, and may be very minor repairs, mine is having frunk enclosure replaced, driver door rubber seal replaced as both were damaged during transport, among other things. I have no idea how a collision repair would be handled, but one example had to have variable light roof replaced due to malfunction (one panel would not de-liquify) and that took months of wait and then their dedicated collision shop to handle, so it can be done. One of my trusted collision shops is certified to work on Tesla and Rivian and every time I stop by to chat with the family who owns it, it seems like all they do is fix Teslas as they are everywhere around the shop, with all kinds of pretty major damages, and they seem to fix them all just fine.

Why to EV or not: This is to address the subject why someone would leap into Macan EV vs. staying ICE. I am going to speak from owning the Taycan point of view with Macan EV to be even better, because it has to be given many more years of a head start.

• The reason that I bought the Taycan is because the way it drives as a daily driver under normal driving conditions. Many others can accelerate much faster and go much longer on a charge and have much superior tech that has nothing to do with driving - all that does not matter to me.
• No other EV on the market has 75 years of Porsche driving technology and you know it, so I was sure to spec all the driving tech that was offered, and the outcome is just sublime experience. All the systems are working together seamlessly. I carve tens of round abouts on a single drive and AS/PASM/PDCC/PTV+ are working together and doing overtime and loving it, because of that low center of gravity. Parking is a breeze with rear wheel steer, although the surround view cameras are the worst ever made (fisheye).
• I did not buy it because it has green EV benefits, but it would be nice if that would be the case, but the power still comes from burning coal where we live.
• I do like its EV benefits that come from home charging convenience at $12 to fill up to 200 miles, no exhaust when driving, stop/go traffic, or just parking and using all the interior comforts you want, knowing you are not having someone breathe the exhaust especially in our current extreme heat weather.
• I took all the years since it was introduced to research it, beg dealer for loaners to take several multi-day drives, and then at the end understood and accepted all the risks associated with owning it, including 13 months wait, and then getting it on the chin with transport damage on arrival. The never ending 12V battery saga, where it only taps into the main battery 8 times max, and then dies, if the car is not driven, which it is not on a 2-month long transport, so the port had to jump it damaging things in the process.
• One of the big short-term, I hope, draw backs is long distance driving given limited range and infant charging infrastructure, but I am betting on this to improve. I did several long drives in the loaners and planning is required to stop and charge, but the enjoyment of driving is much more than taking time to stop/plug/charge.
• Total bonus is the way it looks, so many happy kids pointing at it and jumping up and down as it is something from outer space, adults lock their eyes on it as they do not recognize what it is, and listening to the Sport Sounds just adds to the futuristic feel of it ALL.

I look for every opportunity to drive it and when I do, I think to myself, nothing should be that much fun to drive.

I also would like to share a quote from one of the longtime Tesla owners who also owns a Taycan that resonated with me, although, Taycan is my first EV:

"The Taycan is an irrational love affair. And am I in love. I won't give it up ever. EVER! But my Tessis are by far the better cars by any metric that doesn't involve the heart."

My discussion about the Taycan was with a person who had driven and worked on more Porsches than anyone I know. Much of what you are saying is how he sounded . I listened . I also post on Rennlist . I was intrigued.

1) Regarding your quote from the Tesla/Taycan owner .... Rennlist discusses it at length . Tesla existential threat? - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

2) You never owned or drove a 911 . Look at this Please help. What to do. Regret! - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

The Taycan is a different type of car than a Macan . Its more of a sport luxury passenger car . It somehow makes more sense for it to be the first EV . However notice that your sentiment surrounds it as a daily with a reasonable drive distance . In my discussions with local Porsche owners it was the guys who lived in Miami but commuted to Ft Lauderdale ( 45 min 1.5 hr ) daily who went nuts .
That falls in line with yoir assessment about charging infrastructure,

Now its true that one breathes no fumes as you suggest but there tase cars and not environmentally hazard free . That boat fire opened a lot of eyes . Its not the only EV fire . Building a better infrastructure will surely produce fumes . It just won't be on the watch of the EV owner .

You discussed the big changes at your shop . The Taycan is a marginal chunk of the Porsche market . The Macan is like a huge tidal wave in comparison .

One of the points from my service writer was that when the ICE car breaks its usually resolved quickly . Even if its an expensive repair its a straight forward one . The Taycan has not been easy for them and when they reach out Porsche hasn't really mastered it . This is where Tesla (despite being an inferior car )has more years of experience .

I agree that the Taycan is good looking for a large sedan . For a bit over a decade everyone has complained about the Panamera styling and hits a home run with Taycan looks on the first shot .

 

Porsche Dealerships servicing/repair Taycan or Macan EV: Our dealership had to repurpose existing workshop space used for ICE models repair and service into EV service and repair by getting special lift and EV battery replacement hardware and forced by corporate to install a DC charger by having to rip out the existing parking lot (for wiring) and taking a lot of premium ICE parking spaces.

Its true that the Taycan required dealerships to install the charger. Its not necessarily true they "all" had to repurpose bays. Some were in the process of expansion anyway to accommodate the new model. But generally speaking, sure they had to provide the tools to service what they sell.

 

First off I am not pro EV guy. I just don’t get the whole EV thing call me old call ignorant we are each allowed to have our opinions but if someone thinks EV cars are going to save the environment I don’t think it is going to happen because we will find something else to replace all of the carbon emissions that EV cars will save and have the same amount of pollution call me cynical. I know the current Macan is Porsche’s cash cow however I see alot of base macans on the road where I live about 20+ a day and very few GTS’s. that being said I think a lot of the people who buy macans are not going to shell out $120,000 for a Macan. I see a lot of people paying $25-$35k for used ones. The people who can afford a new gts or S might be able to but that is far and few between and I live in a very wealthy area of the country. I don’t see how Porsche can get the EV down to ICe Macan prices. I am not even talking about if the dealers will have the room in their shops to work on them.

I see EV's as a solution to a non existent problem. The next 5 years or so will be telling...will EV fires increase, will insurance premiums go up on these things, and what will home insurers do if you have one in your garage. The charging infrastructure is way behind being adequate where I live ( Australia ). I have no desire to ever own one, but can see that those that live in inner city areas and do lots of local driving and short trips could make a case to have one. Did Porsche make a big mistake even getting involved with EV's...only time will tell. I also see what appears to be a lot of Taycans for sale as Porsche CPO secondhand vehicles here locally,most only a year or two old. Why...most leases are three years, so it strikes me as odd that there are quite a few that have been traded back to Porsche. Maybe just coincidence or they may have been Porsche staff cars.

Regardess, it is going to be interesting to see how EV's play out over time.

 

The next 5 years or so will be telling...will EV fires increase, will insurance premiums go up on these things, and what will home insurers do if you have one in your garage.

I've been thinking about this a bit given the ongoing insurance cost crisis that seems to be building.

I can see automated EV fire suppression systems in garages becoming common or even being required. Perhaps they'd be built in, but based on a system like this:

These will help until the firefighters show up with suppression blankets:

Giving them time to drown your baby in a dipping container:

 

I joined when I had the 911 turbo and I'm still a member...but showing up in a Macan now....you should see the looks of those passionate Porsche people 🤮🤮

 

I post on two 911 forums . One has 3/4 of the active members who also have a Macan . The other has about 1/3 . Its particularly popular in cold climate regions to have a winter car . They love and respect their Macan . Its nearly unanimous that none want the EV Macan . I can think of one who "might" get it. @grim is right about the passion . The 911 gets the love but they also enjoy the practical nature of that second vehicle .

I have a friend with 4 cars . Two of them are EV (ETron and Ford Lightning ) as well as a 911 and I believe a VW Golf R . His philosophy is to separate EV and ICE and view them as though they are on completely different tracks . His exact words to me were "my wife and I love having EV cars but there wil, always be an ICE car in the household ." Since his daughter has a Tesla we discussed why he chose Audi (strengths and weakness) . With his its again as @grim said ,,, the passion and fun drives are in the 911 .

That brings me full circle back to topic of service . When I talk to Cayenne , Panamera, 911 and 718 guys it seems like the Macan has the most shop related talks . So is the Taycan . An EV Macan with mass units has to get one to pause and think . That recent article that hints at Porsche claiming the last ICE car will be the 911 almost sounds like they are "protecting the egg" (from the movie Cobra Kai) .

The Macan and 718 will be the first to take the hit . Its as if Porsche waved goodby to the 718 with one last home run (the RS) . I dont think they will do this with the Macan .
Its more of a statement of how they view the buyers of cars .

They realize the Base Macan buyer wants a "little sturdy , premium , CUV " and that's what they will get with the EV so there's no need to build a last hurrah .

They launched the Macan with so much enthusiasm and they are going out appearing somewhat numb .

 

EVs are here to stay and it's not yet possible to see how the technology will play out. I think from a service side there are several advantages to not having the 1000's of engine and transmission parts. Otherwise how hard could it be? A couple of motors, brakes and steering then the interior is nothing new. Seems like a more efficient service model. The transition will be a moving target as battery and drive tech evolve. I would hope cars built today would be upgradeable to newer tech in the future whereas now if a Macan engine needs replacement there's only a limited option, but with an EV it might be possible to get a better battery or motor. There are already third party battery service companies to provide an alternative to dealer pricing. One issue which isn't looking so great is the millions of city dwelling folks who don't have garage or access to home charging. They'll be forced to stick with ICE vehicles. One issue that I find curious is how unaware the big car companies were as Tesla plowed ahead without any competition.
I've driven a couple of Model 3s, the ID 4 and the Taycan. The Tesla was novel and like driving an iPad, but the bad build quality and uncomfortable rear seat were unacceptable. The Taycan would be in my garage if I had a spare $120k. Chances are we'll end up with the ID 4 and a Golf R in the next year or so. Probably get rid of the Macan and GTI, but keep the Cayman.

 

I recently traded my 2020 Taycan 4S for a 2023 Carrera T. This is not an indictment of EVs at all. In fact, the Taycan was the best-driving, smoothest-riding, and coolest-looking car I've owned. For charging:

• Home daytime - 8.8kW solar panels
• Home nighttime - 100% renewable electricity at $0.0/kwH on Green Mountain Energy
• Office - free charging

I didn't pay for gas for almost 3 years / 30K miles. The only maintenance I did was the 20K major service that was $400 and really a cursory look around the car just so I could have peace of mind on the warranty. The only other consumables were tires and brakes because of my track days at COTA.

My Porsche indy mechanic did a pre-track day inspection for me where he changed the brake fluid to Motul 660. He felt EVs would reduce his business, but he'd stay afloat with just the air-cooled 911's still running around.

Re: environment, I'll bet no one has given a second thought about the environmental impact all the smartphones they've owned compared to the cordless or corded phone they used to have. How long did that cordless phone last? And here we are upgrading smartphones every 1-3 years. But it's a **** good tool, right? And that's what a Macan EV will be -- a luxurious people / pets / grocery-hauling high-riding CUV appliance.

Enthusiasts are far and few in between nowadays. When was the last time you saw a Cayenne or Range Rover with mud caked on? Or a 911 with race stickers and rubber debris on its hood? We are enthusiasts, which is why we're on the forum. I'll bet the Internet has a forum or subreddit for straight blade razor enthusiasts. I just happen to not be one.

So why go back to ICE? In short, the sound and visceral feeling of the 911 and its manual transmission. And for track days.

I will add an EV again once my 3rd garage bay opens up again (argh, kids.) I am of the mindset that if you're going to drive a 2 pedal car, just get an EV. Otherwise, if you're going to go ICE, get 3 pedals. There's no other way.

As a Porsche community, we've seen this movie before. Air-cooled guys said Porsche would die after 1998. Porsche sports car lovers said the Cayenne would be the death of the company. And now the Taycan and Macan EV. I wouldn't bet against Porsche.

 

I recently traded my 2020 Taycan 4S for a 2023 Carrera T. This is not an indictment of EVs at all. In fact, the Taycan was the best-driving, smoothest-riding, and coolest-looking car I've owned. For charging:

• Home daytime - 8.8kW solar panels
• Home nighttime - 100% renewable electricity at $0.0/kwH on Green Mountain Energy
• Office - free charging

I didn't pay for gas for almost 3 years / 30K miles. The only maintenance I did was the 20K major service that was $400 and really a cursory look around the car just so I could have peace of mind on the warranty. The only other consumables were tires and brakes because of my track days at COTA.

My Porsche indy mechanic did a pre-track day inspection for me where he changed the brake fluid to Motul 660. He felt EVs would reduce his business, but he'd stay afloat with just the air-cooled 911's still running around.

Re: environment, I'll bet no one has given a second thought about the environmental impact all the smartphones they've owned compared to the cordless or corded phone they used to have. How long did that cordless phone last? And here we are upgrading smartphones every 1-3 years. But it's a **** good tool, right? And that's what a Macan EV will be -- a luxurious people / pets / grocery-hauling high-riding CUV appliance.

Enthusiasts are far and few in between nowadays. When was the last time you saw a Cayenne or Range Rover with mud caked on? Or a 911 with race stickers and rubber debris on its hood? We are enthusiasts, which is why we're on the forum. I'll bet the Internet has a forum or subreddit for straight blade razor enthusiasts. I just happen to not be one.

So why go back to ICE? In short, the sound and visceral feeling of the 911 and its manual transmission. And for track days.

I will add an EV again once my 3rd garage bay opens up again (argh, kids.) I am of the mindset that if you're going to drive a 2 pedal car, just get an EV. Otherwise, if you're going to go ICE, get 3 pedals. There's no other way.

As a Porsche community, we've seen this movie before. Air-cooled guys said Porsche would die after 1998. Porsche sports car lovers said the Cayenne would be the death of the company. And now the Taycan and Macan EV. I wouldn't bet against Porsche.

Theres a lot to unpack . Lets start by rewinding back to 2020 when you bought your Taycan . If you recall the car was not well received (unless its a regional thing ) . My dealership had a pile of them unsold and I noticed inventory was similar in other locations . Then Covid hit and driving habits changed for awhile . What I am trying to say is that yoir dealership was able to give your car individualized attention . Fortunately it didn't break . What my service writer said to me was "when they do break they REALLY break". You avoided that pitfall. .

I don't have solar panels or renewable energy and am pretty much like the mainstream . In fact my neighbors who drive crappy cars are big time house people . Some of them have the latest and greatest in house stuff. I am just the opposite . I bought my house because my first wife wanted a house . I stayed after divorce because I was too lazy to move . I got married again , and then again and the house went up in value and the women liked it . I am not even a renovation guy . I hate landscape . I am a car guy !!! So with electric charging I would be a regular plug and play guy .

The Taycan 4S costs about 140K . If you look at any of Porsches ICE cars at that price level the quality control is very different than a Macan which costs a lot less . Since yoir car was a daily you never did eat the expense of a battery . You also never had a fire but if one did happen and I had a choice of any Porsche model to avoid the EV would top my list.

I am trying to sort out the transition from a sport luxury EV to a 992 variant that is driver focused . Any time I walked from a 911 believing I was maturing by buying a rational vehicle I was back in a 911 immediately . I could never have lasted 3 years .

I disagree with the manual vs PDK (ICE Vs EV) argument . I love both equally and would not dismiss an ICE car just because of a transmission as a basis for the choice .

 

I can only hope that I live long enough to see automobile manufacturers (and governments) admit that the rush to EV's was a giant mistake. Were it not for government incentives, EV's would be phased into our lives in a logical progression that made sense...environmentally and economically. It's been proven that, when all costs are added up, EV's are more expensive per mile to operate than comparable ICE vehicles. The adverse effect on our planet due to EV battery production will be far more injurious than pollution from ICE's.

 

I sometimes wonder if EV is a transition to self driving cars . Imagine never having to buy a car and simply paying a modest fee monthly to have a car drive you anywhere and leave . No parking , no car payments , the masses will love it . They will charge it all on electricity . Fees would range from the type of car (like UBER but with no driver and with mileage plans ).

Porsche knows the main buyers are enthusiasts but they also know ICE can not go on forever . That is of course unless they can use alternative fuel.

I dont feel majority deliberately wants to pollute the earth . I just feel that cars are the target that is singled out as some type of band aid on a much bigger problem beyond cars . I have nothing against EV cars . I simply am pro choice .

I also feel a compromise could have begun around what's excessive . When I see a small 100 pound woman in a giant suburban only carrying a Starbucks with 7 empty seats is this excessive . On the other hand when I see children dragged into a legislative court demanding people ride a bicycle its extreme too. With opposite extremes forcing themselves upon the guy in the middle it can get a point where manufacturer gets dragged in . Thats how it ends up that their highest volume selling car might just get ruined .

No one wins in this and it ought not be that way .

 

The transition to EV is gradual, not instant. BMW sells lots of X5s and since they released the iX (the "X5 EV" if you will), some X5 owners have "migrated" but most haven't (yet). BMW seems to be doing ok, and so do the majority of the iX owners (I'm sure you can find unhappy ones but same can be said with the ICE Macan, or any model really).

How's the (upcoming) transition to Macan EV special/different?

 

The transition to EV is gradual, not instant. BMW sells lots of X5s and since they released the iX (the "X5 EV" if you will), some X5 owners have "migrated" but most haven't (yet). BMW seems to be doing ok, and so do the majority of the iX owners (I'm sure you can find unhappy ones but same can be said with the ICE Macan, or any model really).

How's the (upcoming) transition to Macan EV special/different?

The EV Macan was originally slated to varnish . As of recent (this summer) Porsche is reexamining this . Porsche Considers Keeping The ICE-Powered Macan Alive For Longer | Carscoops

I was expecting it to go . This reversal does not erase the undertones . Look what terry did with the Panamera and Taycan , For 10 years the biggest Panamera complaint was styling . Notice the Taycan is the attractive new face in the lineup. The Panamera also somewhat stalled in updated revisions which led many to feel its dated . Its almost as if there is a deliberate effort to wean the customer off .

You can almost bet that the new EV will be pretty . It will be fast. It will be sterile . The guy who buys it won't see the sterile nature at first but by then they got you .

Look at what Europe did with the diesel . There was a time when that side of the map loved the diesel . So they all went out and bought one . After they all had it reality set in with a good scandal .
Now the diesel , which BTW is decent driving vehicle , is completely out of favor .

It was once so hot. It is now so NOT.

 

@EdwardATX, interesting post on the reasons why you switched from EV to ICE. I just dropped my Taycan for a scheduled transport damage fixes and the dealership gave me a 992 S to drive with 5k miles on it and in short, I do not get it.

I have never owned or driven one, thinking, if I do then I will want one, and now Larry @yrralis1 is highly recommending I do so, so I asked for it today as opportunity presented. They said given my status they can get me one (not the GT3 kind, which would not be anything like that), that surprised me given many years wait everyone else is reporting. A 10-mile drive from the dealership to home was very underwhelming, as I am looking for a smooth/comfy daily driver with fun and power to go around town (lots of round abouts and ramps to do so). Lots of drama with engine noise (not pleasant to my ears in sound, frequency, or vibration feedback), and PDK shifts super quick, but the shifts are felt in the seat, sluggish at low speeds, and the only way to get the power is to keep it revved up which is not possible in slow going around town traffic, even with stretches of longer 60mph roads, and the entire look/shape/feel inside and out felt say classic as to not say old feeling. I guess I am too young and/or too stupid to appreciate this thing (Judd Apatow story comes to mind when he bought one and then returned it right away), so I was thinking to myself, Taycan is just way too much fun to drive, futuristic, looks amazing and nothing with wheels should be doing this, where in this 922 S, I was thinking, I do not get it, certainly not for me for daily driving and for sure not be relaxing for a weekend stroll, which is when I see most of them around town. I felt the same way when they gave me a Cayenne GT, a lot of drama, noise, lots of abrupt power with harsh and jarring ride (22-inch set with summers and they do special toe angle something on it), so getting back in our Cayenne or Macan Turbo was where we belong, which is comfy/fun and sublime in a daily or long-distance cruising, and Taycan is in a totally different league as it comes to daily driving with instant power with no drama, as you feel you are not even touching the ground when passing or carving a corner.

 

A 10 mile drive is not a real test and normal mode is boring in just about any PDK car . You put the sport or sport plus and take it through a few turns and that car can become a precision driving instrument . It will run circles around your Taycan 4S in any type of handling . The power to weight ratio puts a Taycan at a huge disadvantage . It is dead even even in a drag race which neither are truly drag cars .

With a 911 a person either gets it or he doesn't.

Before you return the car do yourself this favor. Just before redline one can hear the most intoxicating sound of resonance . Its almost as if the car is screaming in excitement just before slamming into the next great only to do it all over again . You can't have this in a Taycan !!! If those sounds and connection. dont thrill you then you just dont get the 911 . For 60 years the car has made its mark on those who do get it though .

 

The US has stopped being the world's largest auto market for some time now, so we need to take a global lens to this.

The US new car market volume is about half of China's. China is moving to EV quicker than the US is because they don't have as much legacy. Norway, a leading oil exporter, reached 79% EV sales in 2022. The base Macan ICE is a 2.0L I-4, because that happens to be the threshold where road taxes are much higher for larger displacement. We live in a global marketplace, so the only sub-market where US-centric cars make sense are full-size trucks & SUVs.

Re: quality, don't forget that Taycan is Porsche's v1.0 EV effort. People forget the Tesla Roadster was their v1.0 product, and it kinda sucked. Also, Porsche, like the rest of VW Group and all other legacy automakers for that matter, are hardware-centric folks. They don't understand this new world of software-centric vehicles, so naturally, their software sucks. All my Taycan quality problems were related to the PCM. I work for a supplier to Porsche & VW Group, and I can tell you that the Macan EV delays are indeed software-based.

EVs will follow any other tech adoption trend. When did you get your first smartphone? Mine was 2003, a Palm Treo on the then-new Sprint 3G network. Browsing the web was tedious. Apps were very rudimentary. A 2023 smartphone, including the iPhone or Android that your parents now have, has orders of magnitude more computing power than the $xxK Silicon Graphics workstations used to render Jurassic Park & Terminator 2 in the 1990s. Now, no one argues about the virtues of landline phone versus a smartphone.

Re: US government, they forced us onto HD OTA TV by removing VHF & UHF spectrum for analog channels. They forced us onto 3G, then 4G LTE by removing carriers' radio spectrum for 2G and 3G, respectively. Tobacco usage is lower than ever. Public policy works slowly, but it's almost always a net-positive.

@sergeyb -- OK cool, re: 992. It's not for you. The 911 has never been about being for everybody. That's what is great about niche / enthusiast vehicles! I'm happy for choice. I want Porsche to build & sell as many EVs as possible so that governments around the world will leave the 911 alone.
Re: daily driver, yes, the Taycan makes far more sense than a 911. Who likes driving a 400+ HP car with a manual transmission in stop & go traffic? I did that yesterday, and it kinda sucked. At that moment, I wished I had my Taycan 4S with its Traffic Jam Assist. But I'm OK with my choice because I've switched to a vanpool & public transit for my office commute most days. I can save my 911 for days when I actually want to drive for fun.

 

My best friend has bought a Cayenne Hybrid and a X5 Hybrid. He was so happy to spend a lot of money to have two chargers installed in his garage. Both cars run on electric for maybe 20 miles and then they are done and back to gas. He feels good about that. 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️

 

This is a reasonable discussion to have concerning the future. One minor point.

Smoking in the US has risen. If you add in vaping, and then add in MJ, it might be higher than the last decade. The trend among the three is UP. But that is not the point here.

True, China is the leading importer, NOT the US and has been for some time. Also true that, per Porsche, the only reason the 718 exists is because of China.

The Porsche 718 Would Not Exist Without China

We spoke with Porsche's sports car boss, Dr. Frank-Steffen Walliser, about the future of the 718 Boxster and Cayman.

www.roadandtrack.com

Regarding the sounds and what @yrralis1 speaks of. Go to a large Porsche meet, not just a small local PCA tour but a gathering. I've seen this over and over again. With maybe 300 cars attending, all of them on display, cars pulling in and out, you quickly see the following.

If an air cooled car 911, any one pulls up, EVERYONE turns their head to see it.

If a water cooled GT3 pulls up, MOST people turn their head to hear that sweet sound of NA 10K

If a water cooled NA pulls up, SOME people turn their head to hear it.

If a water cooled Turbo pulls up, no one cares. The same is true of any Panny or SUV.

Sound does matter to some people

This is an article that argues that the flat 6 is arguably the best engine ever built. One might argue that, a V12 Ferrari might be better. The problem with the turbos is that the turbos mask the sounds. And its the engine sounds, not the exhaust sounds that matter. Thats why some people forego the fake burbles from the PSE, it also masks the engine sounds. The wail IS iconic, for anyone that cares. The torque curve is not flat, like a turbo and the crescendo just builds, and why you want to pull to redline over and over again, with the GT3 cars just SCREAMING.

 

This is a reasonable discussion to have concerning the future. One minor point.

Smoking in the US has risen. If you add in vaping, and then add in MJ, it might be higher than the last decade. The trend among the three is UP. But that is not the point here.

True, China is the leading importer, NOT the US and has been for some time. Also true that, per Porsche, the only reason the 718 exists is because of China.

The Porsche 718 Would Not Exist Without China

We spoke with Porsche's sports car boss, Dr. Frank-Steffen Walliser, about the future of the 718 Boxster and Cayman.

www.roadandtrack.com

Regarding the sounds and what @yrralis1 speaks of. Go to a large Porsche meet, not just a small local PCA tour but a gathering. I've seen this over and over again. With maybe 300 cars attending, all of them on display, cars pulling in and out, you quickly see the following.

If an air cooled car 911, any one pulls up, EVERYONE turns their head to see it.

If a water cooled GT3 pulls up, MOST people turn their head to hear that sweet sound of NA 10K

If a water cooled NA pulls up, SOME people turn their head to hear it.

If a water cooled Turbo pulls up, no one cars. The same is true of any Panny or SUV.

Sound does matter to some people

This is an article that argues that the flat 6 is arguably the best engine ever built. One might argue that, a V12 Ferrari might be better. The problem with the turbos is that the turbos mask the sounds. And its the engine sounds, not the exhaust sounds that matter. Thats why some people forego the fake burbles from the PSE, it also masks the engine sounds. The wail IS iconic, for anyone that cares. The torque curve is not flat, like a turbo and the crescendo just builds, and why you want to pull to redline over and over again, with the GT3 cars just SCREAMING.

Remember Pete ? He has a 718 4RS and a V12 Superfast .

Heres a sound clip of the Porsche ,
Porsche GT4RS with BC Fabrications inconel XX pipe tunnel run 🚀

 

Remember Pete ? He has a 718 4RS and a V12 Superfast .

Heres a sound clip of the Porsche ,
Porsche GT4RS with BC Fabrications inconel XX pipe tunnel run 🚀

Oh, that definitely gets the hair on the back of my neck tingling!

But I am a car enthusiast like you and most others on this forum. We do not represent the majority of car owners in the US or anywhere around the world.

The figures reported by Jato Dynamics reveal that the Tesla Model Y sold 267,200 units globally in Q1, compared to the 256,400 Corolla and 214,700 RAV4 units sold during the same period.

The average Model Y, RAV4, or Corolla owner could not tell you what kind of motor powers their car beyond "electricity" or "gasoline". So let's not confuse what's good for enthusiasts versus what's good for the mainstream consumer. As stated previously, I am happy for Porsche to sell as many SUVs and/or EVs in order to keep ICE 911's going as long as possible. I don't think this should be a controversial opinion even among this crowd.

Re: dealerships, it's definitely going to be a step-function change for many service departments. Tesla still lacks in customer service, especially compared to luxury marques. But, I suspect their software quality and diagnostic tools are more mature. Porsche dealerships will need to evolve, or else they will become the "desktop PC repair shop" of the automotive world. Right now, the default Taycan diagnostic SOP is to replace, not repair. I hope they'll get to a place where a single faulty battery cell can be field-replaceable (i.e. at the dealership).

 

A 10 mile drive is not a real test and normal mode is boring in just about any PDK car . You put the sport or sport plus and take it through a few turns and that car can become a precision driving instrument . It will run circles around your Taycan 4S in any type of handling . The power to weight ratio puts a Taycan at a huge disadvantage . It is dead even even in a drag race which neither are truly drag cars .

With a 911 a person either gets it or he doesn't.

Before you return the car do yourself this favor. Just before redline one can hear the most intoxicating sound of resonance . Its almost as if the car is screaming in excitement just before slamming into the next great only to do it all over again . You can't have this in a Taycan !!! If those sounds and connection. dont thrill you then you just dont get the 911 . For 60 years the car has made its mark on those who do get it though .

I took time to do what you are saying, went out on a longer drive and out it in Sport and Sport Chassis as this is the max it has (since no AS or SC in the spec), also I tried to go manual and drop a few gears to get the revs going close to the limit. Then it made more noise and more different sounds, but it did not have significantly more instant power I was hoping for when moving say from 40mph to 50mph, it felt like a raging and very angry bull is in the engine compartment, but it just could not stretch its legs, and still felt like it takes too long to rev up before it gets going. The precision around corners and round abouts did not blow me away either, so I returned it and was eager to get back to my zen spaceship Taycan, in which I do not feel its weight around corners. I have a Turbo (see my signature) with all the driving tech offered so it is not a 4S that does feel underpowered for the weight when pushed. I spoke to my SA as he was parking that 992 after I picked up the Taycan and he understood me and said that this is common for the engines with turbos but he said Porsche will not build them without it, so this is where GT3s stand out being NA. So I will stay in my corner and let others be 911 customers, while I enjoy my Taycan driving experience that is second to none for me.

 

I took time to do what you are saying, went out on a longer drive and out it in Sport and Sport Chassis as this is the max it has (since no AS or SC in the spec), also I tried to go manual and drop a few gears to get the revs going close to the limit. Then it made more noise and more different sounds, but it did not have significantly more instant power I was hoping for when moving say from 40mph to 50mph, it felt like a raging and very angry bull is in the engine compartment, but it just could not stretch its legs, and still felt like it takes too long to rev up before it gets going. The precision around corners and round abouts did not blow me away either, so I returned it and was eager to get back to my zen spaceship Taycan, in which I do not feel its weight around corners. I have a Turbo (see my signature) with all the driving tech offered so it is not a 4S that does feel underpowered for the weight when pushed. I spoke to my SA as he was parking that 992 after I picked up the Taycan and he understood me and said that this is common for the engines with turbos but he said Porsche will not build them without it, so this is where GT3s stand out being NA. So I will stay in my corner and let others be 911 customers, while I enjoy my Taycan driving experience that is second to none for me.

Answered via PM so as not to go off topic .

 

Anyone read what was last month’s edition of Car and Driver? EV of the Year edition. The month before it was ICE of the Year edition. What struck me was the REAL WORLD range of the most popular EV’s. I’ll give you a hint: they collectively suck for range.

 

The fairly new Audi dealership near me has a dedicated service bay for EVs. It’s mostly walled off from the rest of the service bays and the techs have to wear special hazmat looking suits to work on them. I’ll have to ask how they feel about it next time I’m there (my really good friend is the general sales manager so it’s fun getting some behind the scenes views).

My local Porsche dealership is moving into a brand new building that should be complete in October so it’ll be interesting to see what their new service department will look like. I’d imagine they’ll have planned for EVs. My service advisor already said he’ll give me a full tour once it’s open.

They clearly have no choice but to do a lot of revisions, but I don’t know if they can match the pace if a car, like the Macan were to become a full EV.

Look at the price of the Taycan . Look at the direction that an EV Macan will price at.. keep in mind I still remember the 55K bass loaner that I drove a couple years ago.

So far there has never been a Porsche SUV, CUV ,or sedan, even hint at becoming a Classic. With all this money being spent into the EV market, do you think there’s even the possibility that this could ever become a classic? I don’t. I feel like they are spinning their wheels and going nowhere with a lot of money. They’re not even really saving the environment. It’s not going to be easy to deal with this kind of service. It’s not going to be cheap to deal with this service.

There once was a time that Porsche built cars hoping they would become legendary. Some of them did . I feel like that has been washed over by this new face that Porsche didn’t even ask for.

 

So far there has never been a Porsche SUV, CUV ,or sedan, even hint at becoming a Classic. With all this money being spent into the EV market, do you think there’s even the possibility that this could ever become a classic?

Well, arguably, very few things are built nowadays with the anticipation that they'll become a "classic" someday. The E1 Cayenne is now part of Porsche Classic, and I don't see many examples running around anymore. An EV, just like most SUVs / CUVs made in the last 20 years, will be disposable once the servicing costs outpace its trade-in value.

Just as a fun thought exercise -- what cars made the year you were born are now considered classics? Excluding any Porsche, Ferrari, or Corvette. I was born during the Malaise Era of cars, so ... none. 😂

 

Dont conflate the Porsche Classic Progam with “classics” in the traditional sense.

eg, ALL 987 and 997 cars are now part of Porsche Classic. That only means PAG will ensure parts are available. It does NOT mean any of the cars will ever be considered a classic. Maybe the 997 GT3RS 4.0, 997 Speedster, and 997.2 GT2RS. Maybe the first Boxster Spyder but none of the regular 997 or 987 cars. No one will be queuing up to bid on a 2008 Cayman S as a Classic or 997.2 Targa either.

A Macan EV will become part of Porsche Classic but will never be considered a Classic Car.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_car

A common theme is of an older car of historical interest to be collectible

 

Dont conflate the Porsche Classic Progam with “classics” in the traditional sense.

Yep, fair enough. I don't see 986 Boxsters getting service at the dealership just because they're part of Porsche Classic. It doesn't take long for a repair bill with a $300/hour labor rate to catch up to the KBB value on an early Boxster!

 

I see many 986s driving around, few 987, 981, or 718. I've repeated many times about TCO and how nobody is going to take a $25K Macan in to a dealer AND the cost of parts only goes up to repair making ownership of an old Macan very difficult without deep pockets. I'm surprised anyone is buying 2015 Macans if they knew how much a new LED headlight cost to repair.

There is going to be some sticker shocked people thinking. "Hey, I just bought a new Porsche for $25K" only to find $4000/$5000 major service bills.

Its one thing to buy a sports car as a toy, drive it, love it, and keep it for a decade as a hobby. Its another thing to do the same for a DD you depend upon to get to work.