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Within 30 days of being legally able to or guidance, I will NOT:

  • 1. attend an outdoor sporting event (e.g., HS baseball game)

    Votes: 60 72.3%
  • 2. attend an indoor sporting event (e.g., NBA or College basketball game)

    Votes: 70 84.3%
  • 3. attend or host an informal social gathering (e.g. party or outdoor BBQ)

    Votes: 33 39.8%
  • 4. attend or host a formal social gathering (e.g., wedding)

    Votes: 54 65.1%
  • 5. attend a formal public gathering (e.g., 4th of July event)

    Votes: 65 78.3%
  • 6. eat in a sit down restaurant or visit a bar

    Votes: 42 50.6%
  • 7. go to a movie, theater, or concert (other than a drive-in)

    Votes: 63 75.9%
  • 8. take my car for any kind of non-emergency service

    Votes: 21 25.3%
  • 9. have any kind of non-emergency service done inside my house, apartment, etc.

    Votes: 32 38.6%
  • 10. go to any kind of non-emergency medical appointment (e.g., routine physical, dental cleaning)

    Votes: 33 39.8%
  • 11. physically perform non-essential shopping (e.g., physically shop for luxuries, new clothes)

    Votes: 37 44.6%
  • 12. go to a public park, beach, town square, etc.

    Votes: 26 31.3%

  • Total voters
    83
661 - 680 of 779 Posts

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Discussion Starter #661
Come on man.... religious persecution? What is this nonsense?
I think your missing the point. I'll try to lay out it simply.

The country exists because people wanted to get away from a "ruler", a "monarch", a dictator? Pick the names you choose, a Governor? That told them what they could and could not do. Sound familiar?

The constitution is the Law of the Land. The Supremacy Clause effectively means, AFAIK, that federal law is above local laws.

The FIRST phrase of the FIRST amendment says:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

All other amendments come after that. Kind of ties in with the fact the Pilgrims fled from religious persecution.

The DOJ warned this was coming. States ignored it. The DOJ sent warning letters. They ignored it. Individual cases have gone to court. They won. Individual religious organizations, see MN above, have told the Governors they will ignore them. Consent of the governed.

As @Dkayak mentions, that does not mean ignore the health guidelines. They are still responsible to stay 6' apart, wear masks, and follow the guidelines for fomites.

No one is forcing anyone to go anywhere. But FORCING people to not practice their religion, provided they follow the public health guidelines, so far looks like a violation of the First Amendment, hence the court cases they lost and DOJ warnings that the Constitution doesn't say "Ignore all this in case your sick".

Think 14th amendment. Buying some booze is cool, but practicing your religion is not cool??? How does that make sense?


Its ESSENTIAL to pick up a fifth of whiskey? How about those huge lines at Walmart, Costo, your grocery store. Have you been in them?

Whats the difference between checking out, waiting for 30 minutes in line, YES that happens, in a store where people do not always follow the guidelines, and sitting 6' apart, outside or in a huge hall? Things have to be treated EQUALLY, not discriminated again.

If some people pack into a tiny hall, no masks, thats probably a bad idea. But what is the difference if one follows the guidelines whether in a liquor store, Walmart, Costco, or a church of some kind???? Some grocery stores near me limit the number of people in. There's a cop sitting there. They COUNT the people in and the people leaving. In door, Out door. Whats the difference if its a huge church? How long does it take to do shopping? An hour? And people pass you close in the aisles. They don't care.

Why would an abortion clinic or liquor stores be "essential" and not a church? How does that make sense. Lets go abort the baby and then pick up a six pack? That's OK but not doing something guaranteed protection by the blood of those in the Revolutionary War? What kind of logic is that? I don't read anything in the constitution about Liquor stores have to be open.

Do I sound irritated? Sorry. But I see ZERO difference other than the people are moving in a store until they hit the checkout line. Then the stand in line for 30 mins waiting to check out.

I predict now the states will lose every first amendment case as they get appealed to SCOTUS. If they don't, the Bill of Rights will fall apart and this nation is done. People need to think very carefully about this.
 

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Discussion Starter #662
Speaking of fomites, whether in a grocery store or in the place you worship, the good doctor has a new post about fomites.


Its not a long read but to get to the point about the latest CDC guidelines on fomites. The studies are in and its basically don't worry about fomites. Originally she said something like to catch the virus from a fomite, someone would have to sneeze on a doorknob, then you use the doorknob then pick your nose. Otherwise forget about it. Now its someone would have to sneeze on the doorknob, you grab it, and then sniff it.

"... the time interval needs to be less than 30 minutes between infected person sneezing on an object and susceptible person touching it; b) the susceptible person would immediately need to take a big, deep, admiring sniff of the object; c) even then, you need about ~1000 intact viruses [the infectious dose] to be inhaled all at the same time to establish an infection and you probably won't be anywhere close."
I guess I can take those groceries out of their 72 hour quarantine ;) and forget about the mail.
 

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Discussion Starter #663
Whats the difference between checking out, waiting for 30 minutes in line, YES that happens, in a store where people do not always follow the guidelines, and sitting 6' apart, outside or in a huge hall? Things have to be treated EQUALLY, not discriminated again.
This should be mandatory reading


When this started I went to a huge grocery store. This was BEFORE they started to enforce a limit to the number of people in the store. It wasn't just packed, but there was a line to get in. There were no X on the floor to tell you where to stand, no plastic barriers between the cashiers, and no LEO sitting at the door. The parking lot was PACKED. People were grabbing everything they could get their hands on.

I saw people walking around with N95 respirators on and actual half mask respirators commonly used by like bug exterminators. They were grabbing CASES of water. Water? Why? Was the public water turned off? The TP was already gone. They were grabbing 12 packs of paper towels. I told my wife they were buying them to use as TP? Maybe? Otherwise I have no idea why.

The freezer cases were EMPTY. NOTHING. First to go was the frozen pizza. Last to go was the stuff no one wants like organic tofu or whatever its called. People were buying huge refills of soft soap, anything they could. I saw carts full of roasts, meats. Where were the people going to put this stuff.

When it was time to check out, I just got in line. Its normally multi server, multi queue. Of course, any line I get in is the slowest :rolleyes: I got yelled at by a store employee and told to go to the end of the queue. They shift to Multi Server, Single queue, like a bank line with multiple cashiers but one line. IMO, this was crazy because they have like 25 cashiers and the employees needed walkie talkies to shout to each other to tell people to let someone move down the line.

So I sought out the end of the line. It was wrapped to the end of the store, DOWN the side of the Store, and wrapping around the BACK of the store. And that was to check out. This was insanity. So I got in line. And waited and waited and waiting. I thought about timing it because it was so crazy. I guess from when I first started to get in line until check out took 30 - 40 mins. That doesn't include the time to actually shop. Add maybe another hour? Meanwhile, all kinds of people were in there moving next to people, NO MASK ORDER yet. I was losing patience. Not worth it sitting a half hour in a ridiculous line.

Now is someone going to tell me thats safer than sitting in a massive building that serves a religion? Or outdoor service? Two words. BS. Sorry to sound upset but its just 🐂 :poop: BTW, has it got better? I don't know, I let them do the shopping now. I've gotten so spoiled I don't care it cost $10 or so to let them do them work. I might never go grocery shopping again. Because I'm not waiting in any🐂 :poop: lines.

Crazy people buying up everything in sight. I'm guess people have garages full of Kleenex and Soap they will never use. Carts full of meat? Do they feed football teams? I know some people say they buy for two families, and thats legit, but this was NOT normal. It was insanity, fear and mostly FEAR induced by a media and ridiculous models.
 

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Now is someone going to tell me thats safer than sitting in a massive building that serves a religion? Or outdoor service? Two words. BS. Sorry to sound upset but its just 🐂 :poop: BTW, has it got better? I don't know, I let them do the shopping now. I've gotten so spoiled I don't care it cost $10 or so to let them do them work. I might never go grocery shopping again. Because I'm not waiting in any🐂 :poop: lines.

Crazy people buying up everything in sight. I'm guess people have garages full of Kleenex and Soap they will never use. Carts full of meat? Do they feed football teams? I know some people say they buy for two families, and thats legit, but this was NOT normal. It was insanity, fear and mostly FEAR induced by a media and ridiculous models.
Good points @grim. Today I did all of our shopping with a total of about 40 minutes in two supermarkets and 10 minutes in a liquor store (gin and tonic ;) ). I do this about every 8-10 days, shopping at off-peak times. I’m not especially fearful but the atmosphere has become depressing. We live outdoors more than ever now. Refreshing. Which gets me to the point you mentioned about outdoor worship. My church in the 80’s made a big deal out of outdoor worship in a local park one Sunday per month. That’s a brilliant idea that should be widely adopted. It’s a win-win.
 

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Discussion Starter #665
The Department of Justice today filed a statement of interest in an Illinois federal court in support of a lawsuit filed by Illinois state representative Darren Bailey challenging certain actions of Governor J.B. Pritzker in response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

The Statement of Interest is part of Attorney General William P. Barr’s April 27, 2020 initiativedirecting Assistant Attorney General Eric Dreiband for the Civil Rights Division, and the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan, Matthew Schneider, to review state and local policies to ensure that civil liberties are protected during the COVID-19 pandemic.

In response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the Governor of Illinois has, over the past two months, sought to rely on authority under the Illinois Emergency Management Agency Act to impose sweeping limitations on nearly all aspects of life for citizens of Illinois, significantly impairing in some instances their ability to maintain their economic livelihoods. According to the lawsuit, the Governor’s actions are not authorized by state law, as they extend beyond the 30-day time period imposed by the Illinois legislature for the Governor’s exercise of emergency powers granted under the Act.
First amendment, MA folds


Now NJ to court


Left is getting upset about the first amendment

 

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When you consider the 1968 Pandemic killing 100,000 in the US and 1 million globally, keep in mind how populations have grown. The equivalent death toll today would be 165,000 in the US and 2.3 million globally. Press coverage was minimal. I only learned of it recently.
 

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"...shocking stories of everyday Americans getting arrested for simply opening businesses that don’t even attract large crowds...."

"According to UCLA, which is tracking this data, 67,000 criminals have been released throughout the 50 states. The majority of the criminals, 43,000 of them, have been released from the nation’s jails, and 24,356 were released from prisons."


Horowitz: 67K criminals released so far under coronavirus jailbreak. And crime keeps rising
 

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That’s really good news.

For background, here’s a Chicago Sun Times story about the state case before the Gov had it kicked up to Federal court. If it goes back to Judge McHaney’s court, he offers some hints as to how he might decide:

“McHaney shot Verticchio down. He said any lawsuit against Pritzker’s stay-at-home order “that even mentions the word ‘constitutional,’ ‘United States Constitution,’ is immediately whisked to federal court,” where Pritzker’s stay-at-home order has survived a series of religious challenges. The judge told the state lawyer, “I’m not accusing you ... of judge shopping.” But then he added, “If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.” Finally, McHaney said, “this case needs to be heard. I mean now.” Bailey attorney Tom DeVore told the judge he would file a summary judgment motion Monday, and the judge set a hearing for Friday.

The judge told the lawyers, “I don’t need to hear two days of testimony from a medical expert that if these executive orders aren’t continued the world is going to end. I don’t need to hear that. This is a legal issue, a legal argument on whether this governor had the authority to issue this executive order under Illinois law and pursuant to the Illinois Constitution. Period. That ain’t hard.

The judge also overruled complaints from Verticchio that the state wouldn’t have time to prepare for the hearing by Friday, insisting that, “It’s not asking too much pursuant to the citizens of this state that every hour that goes by they’re being deprived of the right to leave their house or make a living.”

Then more from the same judge in yesterday’s Sun Times: Americans don’t get ruled.

‘Point by point, the judge in downstate Clay County on Friday ticked off the many ways he found Gov. J.B. Pritzker’s stay-at-home order had devolved into “insanity” and become “completely devoid of anything approaching common sense.”

Clay County Judge Michael McHaney complained that recently legalized pot shops had been deemed essential over generations-old family businesses. People had been led to believe they could avoid COVID-19 at Walmart but not at church.

And to top it off, McHaney complained that Pritzker’s family members had traveled between Illinois and Florida and Wisconsin during the coronavirus pandemic, contrary to Pritzker’s own stay-at-home order. The judge said, “when laws do not apply to those who make them, people are not being governed, they are being ruled.”

“Americans don’t get ruled,” McHaney said.’
 

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Discussion Starter #671
Superstitions and Science, until its not convenient ;) AKA hypocrisy

Sometimes were hear about a "war on science" . We all must have seen some sports superstitions. A batter has to take three, and only three, practice swings because if he takes 2 or 4 he will end his batting streak. A football player must eat 3 eggs, toast, OJ, and cereal before a game because he scored eating that last time, etc. And we all know, or most of us, thats all nonsense. Don't we? OK, maybe some of carry that lucky rabbits foot, but not so lucky for the rabbit? 🐰 Such objects, like 4 leaf clovers have no scientific weight but maybe we believe in them anyway? C'mon SEVEN!!! 🎰 And yet the athlete or gambler knows there is science in hitting a pitched ball or the probabilities in gambling. How about that speeder? Hitting that tree at 120 MPH vs 60 MPH, you dead. Period. No air bags are going to save you. How lucky do you feel today? Now the virus.

Sometimes I read a group where people help each other finding things like TP, hand sanitizer, etc. They remove the OT comments. Some people are truly desperate. They beg for cleaning products. Some have compromised children. Most people are very helpful. But, an Amazon link comes up and sold out in 30 seconds. They try.

Now that regions are opening up, there has been a subtle shift. People are complaining about stores no longer disinfecting carts. The constant cleaning, disinfecting is going to their brains. Some are scared. But others are pointing out what was discussed several days ago. Fomites are not a thing for this virus. Word is getting around, the CDC

The good Doctor

Virologists in Germany (1) did some experiments where they attempted to recover actual live infectious virus from inanimate objects, and concluded that a) the time interval needs to be less than 30 minutes between infected person sneezing on an object and susceptible person touching it; b) the susceptible person would immediately need to take a big, deep, admiring sniff of the object; c) even then, you need about ~1000 intact viruses [the infectious dose] to be inhaled all at the same time to establish an infection and you probably won't be anywhere close.
The CDC was appropriately cautious until the evidence was fully in, but now it's in. New guidelines reflect the fact that transmission from the environment is highly unlikely (3). No need to quarantine your groceries or bleach your mail. You should still wash your hands, though, because that's just nasty.
CDC Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) - Transmission

Yet people who seem to "believe in science" suddenly don't. The shift is visible. Things like "Well I'm still going to buy Clorax and scrub down everything" or "I can't take a chance", etc

Do people believe in science only when its convenient, when it fits their internal belief system? Why don't they believe in science now? They don't believe the studies? Maybe they all need to buy some rabbit feet. ;) Look around. See if people now know the fomites thing has been debunked, within reason that you don't have to spend your life scrubbing down everything, yet still are freaking out.

Is their ONE, just ONE verifiable account of anyone catching this virus from a fomite? I can't find any.
 

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Several German Church Members Infected (7:15 a.m. NY)
Members of a Baptist church in Frankfurt were infected with the coronavirus following a service there on May 10, DPA reported Saturday, citing the deputy chairman of the local congregation.
The majority of worshippers who have tested positive are at home and six are currently in the hospital, deputy chairman Wladimir Pritzkau said. The total number of positive cases is unknown. Germany has permitted religious services that observe hygienic and social distancing rules since May 1.

Met socially distant with a friend in his 60s. He went to his cabin with 3 other friends to get out for a weekend last month. Turns out he was an asymptomatic carrier.
Infected all 3. Healthy outdoorsy people in their 50s and 60s. One died. The other 2 have serious lung damage, but are out of the hospital.
Unknown how long it will take or if they ever 100% recover...You can imagine how he feels.
What a :poop:-show this virus is. I don't want it.
So y'all do your freedom and mingle in churches or elsewhere, but don't count me in just yet.
 

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Discussion Starter #673
Just to bring the human element back to this, the people who have died really died and its all a tragedy. Unless you know someone who has died, it probably doesn't hit home. I do. But sometimes its easier to see it from the eyes of a "celebrity". I guess this person is not a celebrity like Beyonce or some movie star. She's the daytime meterologist on FNC. Read her story about her inlaws. She's one of the nicest, bubbly TV personalities you'd see. I can't speak to the politics of this but I do know there will be a reckoning of some kind.


[husband] A week before his dad died, someone called to let us know ... was being switched to another floor so they could let more patients in. ... I believe the new patients were ones recovering from COVID -- ... got a call and was told that his dad wasn’t well. He had a fever and his lungs were filling up. A few hours later he was dead.

[wife] The doctor called us the next day to tell us she was in and out of consciousness. They gave her more oxygen. A day later, she died.
Even though she got the virus in the nursing home, her death was not counted that way -- because she died in a hospital. I’ve heard some experts say this is to make the number of nursing home deaths appear smaller. ... Our loved ones deserved better. The one thing that brings us comfort is knowing ... are together again. They were never two people together. They were one unit. You often hear stories about how when one person dies, their spouse follows. They just can’t live apart. ... When she was ready, he held out his hand and she went to him. And now they’re in each other’s arms, watching over us.
Our grief and confusion have turned to anger. We are learning more about how elder care homes were turned into death traps. ... Our most vulnerable loved ones could not protect themselves.
I have no words :(:cry:
 

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I think your missing the point. I'll try to lay out it simply.

The country exists because people wanted to get away from a "ruler", a "monarch", a dictator? Pick the names you choose, a Governor? That told them what they could and could not do. Sound familiar?

The constitution is the Law of the Land. The Supremacy Clause effectively means, AFAIK, that federal law is above local laws.

The FIRST phrase of the FIRST amendment says:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

All other amendments come after that. Kind of ties in with the fact the Pilgrims fled from religious persecution.

The DOJ warned this was coming. States ignored it. The DOJ sent warning letters. They ignored it. Individual cases have gone to court. They won. Individual religious organizations, see MN above, have told the Governors they will ignore them. Consent of the governed.

As @Dkayak mentions, that does not mean ignore the health guidelines. They are still responsible to stay 6' apart, wear masks, and follow the guidelines for fomites.

No one is forcing anyone to go anywhere. But FORCING people to not practice their religion, provided they follow the public health guidelines, so far looks like a violation of the First Amendment, hence the court cases they lost and DOJ warnings that the Constitution doesn't say "Ignore all this in case your sick".

Think 14th amendment. Buying some booze is cool, but practicing your religion is not cool??? How does that make sense?


Its ESSENTIAL to pick up a fifth of whiskey? How about those huge lines at Walmart, Costo, your grocery store. Have you been in them?

Whats the difference between checking out, waiting for 30 minutes in line, YES that happens, in a store where people do not always follow the guidelines, and sitting 6' apart, outside or in a huge hall? Things have to be treated EQUALLY, not discriminated again.

If some people pack into a tiny hall, no masks, thats probably a bad idea. But what is the difference if one follows the guidelines whether in a liquor store, Walmart, Costco, or a church of some kind???? Some grocery stores near me limit the number of people in. There's a cop sitting there. They COUNT the people in and the people leaving. In door, Out door. Whats the difference if its a huge church? How long does it take to do shopping? An hour? And people pass you close in the aisles. They don't care.

Why would an abortion clinic or liquor stores be "essential" and not a church? How does that make sense. Lets go abort the baby and then pick up a six pack? That's OK but not doing something guaranteed protection by the blood of those in the Revolutionary War? What kind of logic is that? I don't read anything in the constitution about Liquor stores have to be open.

Do I sound irritated? Sorry. But I see ZERO difference other than the people are moving in a store until they hit the checkout line. Then the stand in line for 30 mins waiting to check out.

I predict now the states will lose every first amendment case as they get appealed to SCOTUS. If they don't, the Bill of Rights will fall apart and this nation is done. People need to think very carefully about this.
**** Grim. Not sure where you're located. I live essentially in Houston. I'm in the burbs 2 miles from the Harris County line. Downtown is 8 miles away. The rules here are a combination of CDC guidelines and common sense (for most). I'm not a church-going man. But if I were, I'm not kneeling or praying next to someone sitting arm or elbow length from me in a house of worship. With that said, it should not be acceptable that any in America be denied to worship whoever and however they choose. Just don't be stupid or naive enough to do it in a small church with crowded pews, the sharing of communion, and choirs singing at the top of their lungs with little-to-no ventilation system. Any of the forementioned qualifiers will cause the spread of the novel coronavirus (SARS and CoV2). Remember, SARS is an airborne disease that in and of itself has a high mortality rate. Last time I was in Costco this past week, shopping carts are wiped down, masks are mandatory and only so many people are allowed in at any one time. You couldn't bump into someone if you tried. Same applies to Wally World or a grocery store. Store owners have enough common sense to follow CDC guidelines and not from someone spewing absolute nonsense from a BULLY pulpit at the WH like putting an ultraviolet light up your rectum or drink bleach or take a PROVEN dangerous drug because someone says they have a big brain and they know more than science.

We have a megachurch here in Houston. It takes place in the old NBA building 'The Summit'. It is HUGE inside. It can fit many thousands of Sunday worshipers. Let's play "What If...". What if tomorrow, Sunday, the doors swing open and the place gets packed? You and I and anyone reading this understand the potential for disaster here. Who goes to church? What's the demographic here? I would venture to say a very large majority are old, invalid, frail people and emotionally bankrupt.

Regarding the 'persecuted' pilgrims comments I offer one word: PURITANISM. And it, to this day, has managed to screw up this country. After Puritanism came the Quakers. They 'ruled' the NE through the 1700s and 1800s. Most of our narrow-minded concepts regarding sex and sexuality originate from that time period. Persecuted? Yeah. They should have been. Roman Catholicism deniers. Salem witch trials, etc, etc, etc.

Ever think about why sex in Europe is much more open that here? A set of boobs on TV is nothing in France during a commercial break. Yet, can you imagine what would happen here if a set was shown on Fox, NBC, ABC or CBS during prime time? But yet, turn on some "edited for TV" movie. No nudity but flying body parts, blood, gore.... More More More. But no nudity... This is crap!

Tell you what I think at this moment in time: Most of the US opened yesterday or today. It's balls-to-the wall play time. I want to see what happens by June 15th. That's a 2 week incubation period for the virus after this weekend. It will either be a non-event or it will get much, much worse. The word from the WH yesterday is, if this happens, the Administration will not try to stop it this time and just let it go. They will push for opening up the economy so we can work, pay taxes and continue to contribute to the top 1%'s pockets.
 

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Read the following article, written by an Associate Professor of Biology at UMASS Dartmouth. It's pretty
informative and gives real world examples of how this virus spreads:

I have no affiliation with the UMASS educational system nor the author of the paper.

It pretty clearly spells out why one would want to avoid "going to church".


BTW, in the quote above, it states that Congress shall make no law, blah, blah, etc. affecting the practice or holding
of one's religious beliefs.

Congress has still not passed any such law.

Many states have prohibitions on the size of gatherings of human beings, typically limited to 6 or 10 - or whatever number.
Houses of worship are not being singled out. Attending religious services are not being singled out. It's ALL ABOUT too
many people in too close proximity to one another.


Observing both the no mask wearing individuals as well as the wear a mask while taking a shower types, I'm constantly
reminded of a phrase:

"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance!"
 

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Discussion Starter #677
Read the following article, written by an Associate Professor of Biology at UMASS Dartmouth. It's pretty
informative and gives real world examples of how this virus spreads: I have no affiliation with the UMASS educational system nor the author of the paper.

It pretty clearly spells out why one would want to avoid "going to church".


BTW, in the quote above, it states that Congress shall make no law, blah, blah, etc. affecting the practice or holding
of one's religious beliefs.

Congress has still not passed any such law.

Many states have prohibitions on the size of gatherings of human beings, typically limited to 6 or 10 - or whatever number.
Houses of worship are not being singled out. Attending religious services are not being singled out. It's ALL ABOUT too
many people in too close proximity to one another.


Observing both the no mask wearing individuals as well as the wear a mask while taking a shower types, I'm constantly
reminded of a phrase:

"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance!"
@[email protected]>@W you're a week late on this. No argument here. Discussed post 524 quote:

this is called "Appeal to Authority" just as l like reading the good doctor, another Appeal to Authority, on avoiding risk, specific to grocery stores.


Its not just duration time but duration x exposure levels "Remember the formula: Successful Infection = Exposure to Virus x Time"

A single breath releases 50 - 5000 droplets. Most of these droplets are low velocity and fall to the ground quickly. There are even fewer droplets released through nose-breathing. Importantly, due to the lack of exhalation force with a breath, viral particles from the lower respiratory areas are not expelled. Unlike sneezing and coughing which release huge amounts of viral material, the respiratory droplets released from breathing only contain low levels of virus. We don't have a number for SARS-CoV2 yet, but we can use influenza as a guide. We know that a person infected with influenza releases about 3 - 20 virus RNA copies per minute of breathing.
Source material is from the NIH


The principle is viral exposure over an extended period of time. ... When assessing the risk of infection (via respiration) at the grocery store or mall, you need to consider the volume of the air space (very large), the number of people (restricted), how long people are spending in the store ( ... customers - an hour). Taken together, for a person shopping: the low density, high air volume of the store, along with the restricted time you spend in the store, means that the opportunity to receive an infectious dose is low.
with general breathing, 20 copies per minute into the environment, even if every virus ended up in your lungs, you would need 1000 copies divided by 20 copies per minute = 50 minutes.
Why would anyone want to sit next to an asymptotic carrier? That's not the point. See my response to Bruce. No one is suggesting that.


BTW, in the quote above, it states that Congress shall make no law, blah, blah, etc. affecting the practice or holding
of one's religious beliefs. Congress has still not passed any such law.
Thats not how it works. Congress doesn't have to, literally, pass a law. The Supremacy Clause, pretty sure, ensure the Constitution is the Law of the Land. Period.


Everson v. Board of Education
, 330 U.S. 1 (1947), was a landmark decision of the United States Supreme Court which applied the Establishment Clause in the country's Bill of Rights to State law.[1] Prior to this decision, the First Amendment's words, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"[2] imposed limits only on the federal government, while many states continued to grant certain religious denominations legislative or effective privileges.[3] This was the first Supreme Court case incorporating the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment as binding upon the states through the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The decision in Everson marked a turning point in the interpretation and application of disestablishment law in the modern era.[4]
Everson v. Board of Education - Wikipedia ...

In its first hundred years, the United States Supreme Court interpreted the Constitution's Bill of Rights as a limit on federal government and considered the states bound only by those rights granted to its citizens by their own state constitutions. Because the federal laws during this period were remote influences at most on the personal affairs of its citizens, minimal attention was paid by the Court to how those provisions in the federal Bill of Rights were to be interpreted.
Following the passage of the Thirteenth to Fifteenth Amendments to the Constitution at the end of the Civil War, the Supreme Court would hear hundreds of cases involving conflicts over the constitutionality of laws passed by the states. The decisions in these cases were often criticized as resulting more from the biases of the individual Justices than the applicable rule of law or constitutional duty to protect individual rights. But, by the 1930s, the Court began consistently reasoning that the Fourteenth Amendment guaranteed citizens First Amendment protections from even state and local governments, a process known as incorporation.[9]

And speaking of the good doctor, another "appeal to authority", she did an interview with some doctor. You can listen here


One thing I got out of it was that the 15 min quick tests aren't accurate. Recently there were some cases at the WH. Why? They all get tested everyday. Well the test where they shove the swab up to your brain and send it for analysis can detect a few, maybe 100? particles. The 15 min test is nowhere as near accurate. I don't know the numbers but maybe you need a couple thousands particles? So those people who eventually tested positive probably always had the virus but they hadn't replicated enough to detect it.

Lesson there? Do the real test?
 

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Discussion Starter #678
**** Grim. Not sure where you're located. I live essentially in Houston. I'm in the burbs 2 miles from the Harris County line. Downtown is 8 miles away. The rules here are a combination of CDC guidelines and common sense (for most). I'm not a church-going man. But if I were, I'm not kneeling or praying next to someone sitting arm or elbow length from me in a house of worship.
No argument from me there. Try this.


The parking lot of the church was full Wednesday night with members of the church who gathered in parked vehicles to listen to Pastor Arthur Scott’s sermon broadcast on a low-power FM frequency radio.The church, according to member Lee Gordon, has been using the radio broadcast for the last three weeks as part of the social-distancing recommendations from federal, state and local governments during the COVID-19, coronavirus epidemic. both he and his wife were issued $500 tickets.
Gordon pointed out a gathering not dissimilar to the one at the church happening close by.

“There’s 25 cars 200 yards away all in the same place at the Sonic Drive-In,” Gordon said. “What we’re doing endangers nobody.”
You see the point? Everyone has to be treated equally. Why wasn't the Sonic Drive-in cars ticketed? Thats discrimination against the church members. I do not disagree one bit about being in enclosed spaces. See my previous post. I brought this up a week ago. Its about exposure x length of time.

You going to tell me its "essential" to get some cheeseburgers, fries, and a shake? Simply put, if the Sonic Drive-in is open with cars sitting in the lots, thats no different than the church doing that and since most of the cases have won in court, its should be obvious now they will not lose on a first amendment basis.

We have a megachurch here in Houston. It takes place in the old NBA building 'The Summit'. It is HUGE inside. It can fit many thousands of Sunday worshipers. Let's play "What If...". What if tomorrow, Sunday, the doors swing open and the place gets packed? You and I and anyone reading this understand the potential for disaster here.
No argument from me there either. If they follow the CDC guidelines, that's "Science". All of a sudden do people not believe in Science? This morning I was just talking about that. Now, if they don't follow the guidelines, then its on their heads.
 

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Regarding the 'persecuted' pilgrims comments I offer one word: PURITANISM. And it, to this day, has managed to screw up this country. After Puritanism came the Quakers. They 'ruled' the NE through the 1700s and 1800s. Most of our narrow-minded concepts regarding sex and sexuality originate from that time period. Persecuted? Yeah. They should have been. Roman Catholicism deniers. Salem witch trials, etc, etc, etc.
Lets talk witchcraft and the virus. :oops: 🤒 I don't know what "Roman Catholicism deniers" means but I know the rest. We can't get into a religious discussion but I think early 1600s Puritans is ancient history. It sounds like you don't like the puritanical attitudes. I remember movies "Banned in Boston". You got no idea. Been to Salem and its not what people think. All the movies, the stories you might have heard as a kids, its not even close. Its none of that "burn the witch at the stake". None were burned at the stake. Thats the Europeans, not the Puritans. Ignore Hollywood. The Puritans were more civilized. They used the rope. If you really want to know about what happened, you got to read the history books for a deep dive. The idea is the early settlers were traumatized by the raids and deaths from the natives. Couple that with a true belief in evil walking around. I can't go farther than that it will become religious. But its really not what hollywood portrays it to be. Think easily swayed adolescent females in a tight, frontier society, traumatized by constant warring factions where religion is a prime force and you got hysteria. Something like that. Evidence was not empirical. While the most famous players might have been the "Mathers", Tituba, IMO, was the most fascinating. She confessed to be a witch then accused others setting of a chain yet was let go. Weird.

I don't remember anything about Quakers ruling NE. Wasn't that PA? Puritans yes, Quakers no. I see a little bit It looks like the Puritans didn't like them so they left for PA. I remember nothing of any Quakers in NE. Maybe you got the states wrong? Maybe NE doesn't mean New England but "the north east"

Ever think about why sex in Europe is much more open that here? A set of boobs on TV is nothing in France during a commercial break. Yet, can you imagine what would happen here if a set was shown on Fox, NBC, ABC or CBS during prime time? But yet, turn on some "edited for TV" movie. No nudity but flying body parts, blood, gore.... More More More. But no nudity... This is crap!
Well, those concepts can definitely be thought of as puritanical but I don't see what this has to do with First Amendment. So the Puritans had their concepts of right and wrong. Their religion gave way other Christian religions mostly deriving from England. Times changed, ideas changed, but I'm not seeing what this has to do with anything. It sounds like you don't like the ideas of the Code of Practices for TV Broadcasters or the power the FCC has over broadcast TV. The answer to that is simple, watch Cable TV where the FCC has less power.

Did they come from a basis in what the Puritans believed? Maybe? So what? There's like 1,000 TV stations. Watch something else.
 

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But FORCING people to not practice their religion, provided they follow the public health guidelines, so far looks like a violation of the First Amendment, hence the court cases they lost and DOJ warnings that the Constitution doesn't say "Ignore all this in case your sick".
No one is "forcing" anyone to cease their religion . Public health and medical professionals are centered on all gatherings as virus spreading risk. They are not being singled out as a virus can spread as easily in any gathering setiting.

If anything is "forced" with regard the Church/State separation it's the inclusion of a monotheistic clause right on currency ("In"God" we trust" ) or taking. patriotic pledge and deciding in 1954 to add the words "Under God" into it (more monotheism).

The USA is not a theocracy nor was it founded on Christianty (see article 11 Treaty of Tripoli) .
Quote from link -
ARTICLE 11.
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Everyone has the right to practice their religion . No one has the right to spread illness.
 
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