Porsche Macan Forum banner

Within 30 days of being legally able to or guidance, I will NOT:

  • 1. attend an outdoor sporting event (e.g., HS baseball game)

    Votes: 72 72.0%
  • 2. attend an indoor sporting event (e.g., NBA or College basketball game)

    Votes: 86 86.0%
  • 3. attend or host an informal social gathering (e.g. party or outdoor BBQ)

    Votes: 38 38.0%
  • 4. attend or host a formal social gathering (e.g., wedding)

    Votes: 68 68.0%
  • 5. attend a formal public gathering (e.g., 4th of July event)

    Votes: 81 81.0%
  • 6. eat in a sit down restaurant or visit a bar

    Votes: 56 56.0%
  • 7. go to a movie, theater, or concert (other than a drive-in)

    Votes: 78 78.0%
  • 8. take my car for any kind of non-emergency service

    Votes: 23 23.0%
  • 9. have any kind of non-emergency service done inside my house, apartment, etc.

    Votes: 37 37.0%
  • 10. go to any kind of non-emergency medical appointment (e.g., routine physical, dental cleaning)

    Votes: 39 39.0%
  • 11. physically perform non-essential shopping (e.g., physically shop for luxuries, new clothes)

    Votes: 44 44.0%
  • 12. go to a public park, beach, town square, etc.

    Votes: 30 30.0%

  • Total voters
    100
21 - 40 of 1207 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,764 Posts
If I have my contractor come to work on my new kitchen, it's because the no work order would have been lifted and both of us are reasonably sure we're healthy. I say "reasonably" because there's no such thing as 100% sure. We would both have been staying in place long enough to be reasonably sure we're not infected. People has to go back to work, and as long as we have a controlled environment, business needs to resume. On the other hand, how many strangers are you going to come into contact with in a public event, a social gathering for entertainment - hundreds, thousands? There's a big difference. We're talking about work, not entertainment here. Work is essential while entertainment is not. My contractor needs to work, and I also need to honor my contract with him. I'm ok with this.
Does it really matter if one gets sick and dies from " kitchen work" vs "entertainment" ? Does the semantics matter when its game over ? And if that one worker in the house has the virus is repeated exposure to one infected person going to be any less detrimental and a one time exposure to a crowd ? What good is a new kitchen going to do to the person who might not to eat in it ? Doesnt every business entity want to get back to work with all the unfilled contracts ?

The first confirmed case of Covid 19 in China was documented as Nov.17 . The first US case was Jan 8. Look where we are now . There was no vaccine then and none now. There was no formal treatment or now .

Do you still want everyone back at work ? Define "controlled environment" . Are we not doing so now ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
340 Posts
Only 4 negatives and they are 4 things that I rarely do or can live without under normal circumstances...sporting events, concerts, large public gatherings, movies.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,227 Posts
If I have my contractor come to work on my new kitchen, it's because the no work order would have been lifted and both of us are reasonably sure we're healthy. I say "reasonably" because there's no such thing as 100% sure. We would both have been staying in place long enough to be reasonably sure we're not infected. People has to go back to work, and as long as we have a controlled environment, business needs to resume. On the other hand, how many strangers are you going to come into contact with in a public event, a social gathering for entertainment - hundreds, thousands? There's a big difference. We're talking about work, not entertainment here. Work is essential while entertainment is not. My contractor needs to work, and I also need to honor my contract with him. I'm ok with this.
I suspect entertainment is essential to the entertainer.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,353 Posts
Discussion Starter #24
This was only to get a feel of what people would do or not do, nothing more. Its interesting information.

We all know there is public discussion on opening up the country. There is massive financial loss, depression, panic, hoarding, etc. Will they? I suggest not paying too much attention to headlines or TV talking heads. Read the raw data from the scientists and make up your own mind. There are many doctors commenting on all this. This one is interesting and non-political. This is her bio I suggest reading her posts individually. There are only a few. This is what I got out of it, simplistically. Maybe I missed something but this is what I read. She goes into great detail. Jennifer L Kasten, MD, MSc, MSc

Its difficult for transmission on surfaces, formites. Quote:

Let's say someone spray-sneezes all over your cereal box. The virus has a half-life of 70 minutes, on cardboard, so you'd have to pick it up right away and rush home with it. A small amount of infectious virus is transferred to your hands when you pull it off the shelf (you need a few hundred/thousand to successfully end up in some part of your body with the correct receptors , remember?). The virus cannot burrow into your skin- so, on your hands some will denature further, just hanging out; some will fall off whenever you touch anything else. By the time you accidentally touch your face or wipe your nose, you don't have much left. And then- it's just on your face, close to a mucus membrane, maybe some gets in? Unless you take a deep, fragrant, admiring sniff of your hands, or the cereal box... it's tough.
more:

[Source in German: Der Spiegel, Germany’s national daily newspaper, on the “Heinsberg Protokoll” from the University of Bonn]. ... There is a difference between particles of virus and it being able to infect someone. .. “When we took samples from door handles, phones or toilets it has not been possible to cultivate the virus in the laboratory on the basis of these swabs.” [meaning, samples were inoculated into cells and viral culture media, but could not grow- they denatured / fell apart]. ... “To actually 'get' the virus it would be necessary that someone coughs into their hand, immediately touches a door knob and then straight after that another person grasps the handle and goes on to touches their face.” Again, this is why it’s almost impossible to contract COVID from a piece of mail, or a cereal box.
:)

Promising vaccine coming blocking the ability of the virus to penetrate a cell

Models
:rolleyes: I get GIGO, like this

There was an ominous-sounding blog post stating that any form of outdoor exercise where you pass within 30 feet of another person will lead to transmission of COVID-19.
Masks work. Use them. It's not about you. Its about you protecting others from you.

And lastly there is the issue of opening the country up. We've all seen the arguments, people have to get back to work. Ultimately, it is a political decision. Scientists do not make political decisions. They provide input to the elected officials who make those decisions. That's why you voted for those elected officials. But here is her info on the science. Some differential equations in there and a good mention to "area under the curve", something any car nut should know about torque curves:

Model A, many infected people we don't know about makes the death rate miniscule. First cases were long before the first recorded cases. "Big demoninator"

Model B. It is what it is. Extrapolate from the current data. "Cases are cases"

If A, social distance works. Herd immunity works. A large population of infected people means the virus dies off. If B, we are screwed. All those models? The area under the curve is stretched out in time. Keep everything locked down and pray for a vaccine or open things up and expect millions to die.

So I get from this that politicians that open up the country are betting on Model A. This does not take into account the deaths, pain, suffering by keeping the country locked down. Its a very tough choice. And they don't seem to know which model is correct. Not a good time to be an elected official to have to make these decisions. If you get it wrong :(

All those IHME models on expected number of ICU beds? So far all wrong. No one has gone without a ventilator, per latest WH briefing. Anyone ever going to trust computer modeling again?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,353 Posts
Discussion Starter #25
BTW, if that all sounds too gloomy, think about this. People who "predict", "poll", or "model" things:

Chances of Brexit not happening? 88%

Chances of Clinton winning 2016 election? 90 - 99%

Imperial College predicted US Deaths with mitigation? 1,100,000

IHME Model, 3/26, number of US Deaths 81,114, 18,767 ventilators needed. As of 3/14, per WH briefing, not a single US patient who need one didn't get one. This model does not seem to take into account the vast ability of the US to bring to bear not only production capability via the Defense Production Act but the ability to adapt. Field hospitals built on the fly are now being torn down without use. The two hospital ships are barely being used. GIGO. Why wouldn't a model not include items that are well known such as the industrial capacity of the nation and resources such as mobile field hospitals?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
141 Posts
I have been reading that some who tested positive , then cleared , have retested later on as positive . Of course a false negative is always a potential but usually to be "cleared" (from a hospital) there are multiple negative tests to back it up. The other possibility is that the virus lays dormant (like Herpes for instance as well as other virus ) and never really clears the body . That would be a very serious thing if Covid does this .



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,764 Posts


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
His argument makes sense "relapse or reinfection" where he points to undetectable virus which relapses . He does place a lot of trust in the negative tests (does not mention false negative as a possibility) . He does not consider a dormant and active stage (like I mentioned with herpes or shingles) where a virus is incurable long term but manageable with medication . So much is still unknown .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,764 Posts
So I get from this that politicians that open up the country are betting on Model A. This does not take into account the deaths, pain, suffering by keeping the country locked down. Its a very tough choice. And they don't seem to know which model is correct. Not a good time to be an elected official to have to make these decisions. If you get it wrong :(
I have no sympathy for the politicians on either side of the aisle .The problem with people is that they are so fixated on party line politics that they fear more being called out as a switching sides than trying to save themselves . No one will run to the politicians when they are sick . They will run to the scientist (physician) .

The outcry is coming directly from those on the front lines (doctors, nurses, police, EMT, firefighters . etc) and they comprise both sides of the aisle . The huge concentration of cases in such a short period of time across all borders worldwide shows that this virus spares no one .

So the airlines get bailed out , major league baseball are the test group for antibodies (instead of first responders) and all is rosy again ? Send the kids all back to schools they can bring this to their teachers , parents and grandparents ?

It's already obvious that no one has plans to pay this back . Look at the bank stocks or American Express . I keep saying all that "improve your credit score" is going to to to great use at ruining the great credit of those who at this point t could care less about it. Try collecting from a dead person in bankruptcy because even if that's not the case it is how some might feel being unemployed and squeezed .

An d what about sports ? After all major league baseball was a sure pick to bait the public of all the things they miss . They are tired of watching the Jerry Springer show of press conferences and wasting their time.

As you know .. I am sitting in my house waiting it out for a vaccine or treatment .
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,353 Posts
Discussion Starter #29
I have no sympathy for the politicians on either side of the aisle .The problem with people is that they are so fixated on party line politics that they fear more being called out as a switching sides than trying to save themselves . No one will run to the politicians when they are sick . They will run to the scientist (physician) .
The referenced MD is a scientist. She makes it clear her posts are completely non-political and won't tolerate political comments.

So the airlines get bailed out , major league baseball are the test group for antibodies (instead of first responders) and all is rosy again ? Send the kids all back to schools they can bring this to their teachers , parents and grandparents ?
I'm not sure where you are going with this but if you are referring to the Presidents comment on watching old ballgames, it was a joke. The reference to kids is real. Jennifer L Kasten, MD, MSc, MSc mentions that if you start to open things up under Model A, that kids have little to fear. This isn't the measles where if you breath in a room of kids they all get it with a R0 of 20. The question might be what do they do with the adult teachers? Make a virtual classroom? I don't know.

It's already obvious that no one has plans to pay this back .
I don't mean US taxpayers will pay it back nor just add to the now $25T national debt. I think those discussing it mean Chinese reparations for infecting the world. For example, the UK is furious at China


We know there was Wuhan Express to lombardy for the luxury goods market.


I don't see how there will not be some kind of repercussions. Its begun. Money cut off from WHO. The US hasn't paid full UN dues for years. This is nothing new


No US politician caused this. All the executives from the federal executive to the 50 state executives have tough decisions ahead.

If you want to get deep into this, where do virus come from? They are not alive. Which came first, cells or virus? They don't know. I don't mean jumping from bats to human but, literally, how are they created? They don't know


Which the conspiracy lovers can jump all over. Outer space?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
141 Posts
As you know .. I am sitting in my house waiting it out for a vaccine or treatment .
This is what I am doing. Unless you really need to leave the house to purchase essentials. Or maybe just going for some spirited Macan driving.

I can’t see myself going to a restaurant or bar unless there a cure or vaccine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,764 Posts
The referenced MD is a scientist. She makes it clear her posts are completely non-political and won't tolerate political comments.



I'm not sure where you are going with this but if you are referring to the Presidents comment on watching old ballgames, it was a joke. The reference to kids is real. Jennifer L Kasten, MD, MSc, MSc mentions that if you start to open things up under Model A, that kids have little to fear. This isn't the measles where if you breath in a room of kids they all get it with a R0 of 20. The question might be what do they do with the adult teachers? Make a virtual classroom? I don't know.



I don't mean US taxpayers will pay it back nor just add to the now $25T national debt. I think those discussing it mean Chinese reparations for infecting the world. For example, the UK is furious at China


We know there was Wuhan Express to lombardy for the luxury goods market.


I don't see how there will not be some kind of repercussions. Its begun. Money cut off from WHO. The US hasn't paid full UN dues for years. This is nothing new


No US politician caused this. All the executives from the federal executive to the 50 state executives have tough decisions ahead.

If you want to get deep into this, where do virus come from? They are not alive. Which came first, cells or virus? They don't know. I don't mean jumping from bats to human but, literally, how are they created? They don't know


Which the conspiracy lovers can jump all over. Outer space?
"The kids have little to fear" is only part of that equation . They still can become carriers of this virus and some of them have died so they are not exempt . In a school setting they have no idea how to socially distance themselves and can give it to each other , their teachers , and their families at home.The idea you presented of a possible "virtual teacher:" wont work . Children need supervision in a classroom setting.

I agree that "no US politician caused this " and even feel that both sides lack the proper organizational capacity to have dealt with it . It has revealed an Achilles heel of our country . What has struck the ire of the public is the constant self aggrandizement and deflection where recent statements contract each other.

Even his own team stands at the conferences in disbelief because they have a sense of professionalism in their personalities and method of delivery. What's even worse is that he built up a nice economy and he may as well hand it over to the next guy who can barely read unless its from a teleprompter . NONE of this matters though . What does matter is that NOTHING has changed and people are still dying. Baiting the public with church at Easter, baseball games, and vacation at Disney with air travel are what people miss and further exacerbates their pain .

I am not buying ANY of the models . All are subject to constant revision and I am not going to be a guinea pig for the next statistic . That's the only thing I can control but it does become harder if more people around me get sick . If they want to buy into the $hit sandwich flying in all direction then they do have the choice . I choose to wait and hope I get to live by doing so.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
853 Posts
"The kids have little to fear" is only part of that equation . They still can become carriers of this virus and some of them have died so they are not exempt . In a school setting they have no idea how to socially distance themselves and can give it to each other , their teachers , and their families at home.The idea you presented of a possible "virtual teacher:" wont work . Children need supervision in a classroom setting.

I agree that "no US politician caused this " and even feel that both sides lack the proper organizational capacity to have dealt with it . It has revealed an Achilles heel of our country . What has struck the ire of the public is the constant self aggrandizement and deflection where recent statements contract each other.

Even his own team stands at the conferences in disbelief because they have a sense of professionalism in their personalities and method of delivery. What's even worse is that he built up a nice economy and he may as well hand it over to the next guy who can barely read unless its from a teleprompter . NONE of this matters though . What does matter is that NOTHING has changed and people are still dying. Baiting the public with church at Easter, baseball games, and vacation at Disney with air travel are what people miss and further exacerbates their pain .

I am not buying ANY of the models . All are subject to constant revision and I am not going to be a guinea pig for the next statistic . That's the only thing I can control but it does become harder if more people around me get sick . If they want to buy into the $hit sandwich flying in all direction then they do have the choice . I choose to wait and hope I get to live by doing so.
What is your response to those who cannot “wait it out”? There is a huge # of people’s lives/livelihood who have been destroyed because of our shutdown. They cannot afford to “stay home” for a year. What do we tell them?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,353 Posts
Discussion Starter #33
I agree that "no US politician caused this " and even feel that both sides lack the proper organizational capacity to have dealt with it . It has revealed an Achilles heel of our country .
Thats because of the powers granted between the three parts of the government. Its intentional and always has been intentional. Its also why Dictators are better, at times, in wartime. Tom Hagen was not a wartime advisor and had to be cut out of the business.


What has struck the ire of the public is the constant self aggrandizement and deflection where recent statements contract each other.
I was talking about ALL the governers. They run their states, per the 10th amendment. Each state executive is doing so at different rates and doing different things. They are not all equal. Even today, protests are happening in at least one state capital that enough is enough. IMO, anyone with the power to restrict people working should also not be paid. IOW, if you have the ability to tell people they can't work, then you don't get paid either.

We might have a different view on "self aggrandizement and deflection". The fourth estate plays a heavy role in this. Think about the last few briefings. For a month WH reporters have been asking why the country wasn't shutdown earlier, why control wasn't taking from the top. The response? "We have this thing called a constitution" a clear reference to the 10th amendment.

A few day ago, discussing reopening the country, this position was reversed in that it was the Presidents power, something that the VP referred to as Plenary power under an emergency declaration, to decide when the country should open. Is that true? I don't know. But IMO that is contradictory. On cue, the reporters melted down, shouting "federalism", the reverse of what they had been preaching for a month.

IMO, this contradiction was intentional, to show how ridiculous the WH reporters questions have become showing the public that "they", the press, contradict themselves. Briefings have been platforms for reporters to "perform", get TV face time. I don't understand why any reporter from a TV network can ask questions yet the network not carry the briefing. IMO, any network that cuts away needs to have the reporter removed from the room. Anyway, its interesting times, certainly not boring.

Pretty soon, all the movies and TV shows will be reruns. Nothing to watch. All the booze will run out, all the beer drunk because the factories non-essential or the stills making hand sanitizer instead of whiskey. We will be left with TP scavenger hunts ;)
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,353 Posts
Discussion Starter #34
What is your response to those who cannot “wait it out”? There is a huge # of people’s lives/livelihood who have been destroyed because of our shutdown. They cannot afford to “stay home” for a year. What do we tell them?
Every state is handling it differently. Michigan looks fed up. One might fear that civil unrest will become very real followed by true rioting. This is why I think these decisions are very difficult for state and federal executives. How does it make sense that you can't buy vegetable seeds?

 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,353 Posts
Discussion Starter #35

·
Registered
Joined
·
108 Posts
Every state is handling it differently. Michigan looks fed up. One might fear that civil unrest will become very real followed by true rioting. This is why I think these decisions are very difficult for state and federal executives. How does it make sense that you can't buy vegetable seeds?


Those people in Michigan are morons. Someone should explain to them we don't give a **** if they want to kill themselves, but they have no right to infect others.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,764 Posts
What is your response to those who cannot “wait it out”? There is a huge # of people’s lives/livelihood who have been destroyed because of our shutdown. They cannot afford to “stay home” for a year. What do we tell them?
I would tell him to get a temporary job in an essential line of work . Publix is hiring and so is Petsmart . He could drive Uber . If he's a professional and this is too menial for his ability and education then he should have retained enough savings. If not then he ought to downsize to save his life . Many professional jobs are working remotely but the landscape is changing for everyone .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,764 Posts
I was talking about ALL the governers. They run their states, per the 10th amendment. Each state executive is doing so at different rates and doing different things. They are not all equal. Even today, protests are happening in at least one state capital that enough is enough. IMO, anyone with the power to restrict people working should also not be paid. IOW, if you have the ability to tell people they can't work, then you don't get paid either.

We might have a different view on "self aggrandizement and deflection". The fourth estate plays a heavy role in this. Think about the last few briefings. For a month WH reporters have been asking why the country wasn't shutdown earlier, why control wasn't taking from the top. The response? "We have this thing called a constitution" a clear reference to the 10th amendment.

A few day ago, discussing reopening the country, this position was reversed in that it was the Presidents power, something that the VP referred to as Plenary power under an emergency declaration, to decide when the country should open. Is that true? I don't know. But IMO that is contradictory. On cue, the reporters melted down, shouting "federalism", the reverse of what they had been preaching for a month.

IMO, this contradiction was intentional, to show how ridiculous the WH reporters questions have become showing the public that "they", the press, contradict themselves. Briefings have been platforms for reporters to "perform", get TV face time. I don't understand why any reporter from a TV network can ask questions yet the network not carry the briefing. IMO, any network that cuts away needs to have the reporter removed from the room. Anyway, its interesting times, certainly not boring.

Pretty soon, all the movies and TV shows will be reruns. Nothing to watch. All the booze will run out, all the beer drunk because the factories non-essential or the stills making hand sanitizer instead of whiskey. We will be left with TP scavenger hunts ;)
I never understood who has enough free time to protest (sometimes for days) . Whether its the right or left there's always some large group voicing themselves and they do have the right . However I think its a perfect opportunity to give them that platform by handing each of them who are eligible a Jury Pool summons.

It's not the media calling for the press conference . They are showing up only to hear him boast or judge the question when he never had to offer the conference . This is nothing new . Whether it's "little Marco" , Megyan Kelly, Or Rosie O'Donnell any type of ridiculous slight sets him into a rage so why wouldn't the media feed it ? You do realize this culture of reality TV and Social media feeds on silliness . It was his winning ticket in the past to stand out as different but not in times like this when people are dying . The rest of his team are NOT doing this . Every member of his team stands at that podium with professionalism and it actually backs the media away from "gotcha" questioning.

I realize its boring and feels unproductive but its not . There's a dangerous virus out there and we are learning more about it with time . So are the scientists who want nothing more than to get a grip on it .

I haven't watched any movies . I don't drink . I have toilet paper . My biggest change is that pre virus I used to cough to hide a fart and now I fart to hide a cough. Life's not so bad.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,805 Posts
We get it. You HATE Tr**p.
 
21 - 40 of 1207 Posts
Top