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Not going to be an EMP. No nukes. That would be a death sentence for the world. No way there would not be massive retaliation. Just cut the gas and oil lines. Economic security is national security. Cut off trade. Good bye EU. Even worse, if they actually succeeded in getting all their energy needs from Batteries, it becomes MUCH simpler. I don't know what they are thinking. You just cut the supply lines from the Congo and China. Good bye. No one needs die in actual fighting. Think surrounding the Castle and starve them out. Old school Medieval Castle Warfare. You wait them out.
Although I agree with you in principle, not all countries in the EU will suffer equally if the gas and oil lines are cut.

France has 58 nuclear power plants which supplies almost 73% of that countries electricity. Germany on the other hand only has 8 nuclear power plants (all to be phased out by 2022) which supplies about 12% of their current electricity needs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_by_country

France's renewables and fossil fuels accounted for 17.8% and 8.6% of the rest respectively.
 

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To think that EVs are not the future is to be very short-sighted. I'm not ready for a BEV (all-electric plug-in battery vehicle) yet, but I am very glad that they are being produced in growing numbers, that the technology is increasing rapidly, that the costs are coming down, that the infrastructure for charging is improving, and that many people are buying them. My experience is this: I bought a 2018 Panamera 4 E-Hybrid last year, and have 13 months and 20k miles of experience with it, plugging in almost every night in my garage for a full charge the next morning, and going up to 2000 miles on a single tank of gas with local daily driving; Porsche created a technological marvel with their current version of E-Hybrids. And I have test-driven the Tesla Model S and the Jaguar I-Pace (both BEVs), and have ridden in a Tesla Model 3 and also a friend's Model S. They are all amazing vehicles that are very fun to drive. My PHEV is the most amazing car I've ever driven; it changes seamlessly between ICE and electric motor, and it has super acceleration at 462 hp and 516 ft-lb of torque. I just bought a 2019 Macan because I wanted a Porsche with some more practicality over my Panamera; but I am disappointed that Porsche does not (yet) make an E-Hybrid Macan, and I hope this is the last ICE-only car that I ever buy -- hoping that Porsche will produce an E-Hybrid Macan for MY2022 (as my dealer rep has said is being planned by Porsche). I'm not ready for BEV-only, but I'm ready to leave ICE-only vehicles in the rear-view mirror in terms of my personal stable of cars.

Yes, there are problems with charging infrastructure and driving range. But, as noted above, BEVs are going to become much more widely bought and driven in the coming decades as charging technology and infrastructure improves, because there will be many BEV options and many of them will be cheaper to buy than ICE-only vehicles, and they will be immensely cheaper to maintain (no engine issues to maintain, and brakes will need replacing only once every 100k-200k miles, etc.). For the average person owning a car for a length of 10-20 years, a BEV bought in 5-10 years from now will be perhaps 50% cheaper to own over the vehicle lifetime; this is what will kill off ICEVs, eventually. And the more quiet driving and better torque/acceleration -- not to mention the not having to go to gas stations -- will appeal to all but the couple of percent of drivers who like "muscle" cars. People mention above how cheap gasoline is right now in the USA (except California); my monthly "fuel" cost plummeted by 50% with my PHEV (cost of electricity + gasoline, vs. gasoline only), with the same daily driving pattern. Two-thirds of Americans own a garage for their cars; there is simply no comparison to the ease of plugging in every night at home, and not having to go to a gas station once a week or so. Gas stations are probably the most disgusting places that most people have to visit on a regular basis in their daily lives; there is nothing remotely nice about going to gas stations to fill up -- and it's even worse for those of us in cold climates in winter, or anybody in a driving rainstorm, etc.

Even most of those who like performance cars will be pleased with high-performance BEVs; look at the Porsche 918 Spyder, which is a PHEV, and an amazing performance car -- evidently better than any ICE-only vehicle ever made by Porsche in terms of speed and acceleration. If you want to really learn a lot of interesting stuff about BEVs, read through the very lengthy thread titled "Tesla existential threat?" at the Rennlist forum (under "Taycan and Mission E"); there you will find a lot of Porsche owners (including many who track their Porsches) who also own Teslas and rave about them, as well as engineers and others very knowledgeable about how BEVs work and discuss why they will take over the automotive industry in the coming decades.
 

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Anyone who appreciates technology, convenience, safety as well as efficiencies and economics will chose the best vehicle for their needs. ICE or EV. Having the shop foreman or the SA as your best friend, would not be something I would be looking forward from my car ownership. Also, do I really need a V8 and 600hp to conduct my personal business?

BMW just sacked their CEO who had been with the company for 30 years in order to engage in a more aggressive EV trajectory with a new CEO. I guess whether we like it or not and to the disappointment of many, the writing is on the wall for ICE vehicles.
 

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BMW just sacked their CEO who had been with the company for 30 years in order to engage in a more aggressive EV trajectory with a new CEO. I guess whether we like it or not and to the disappointment of many, the writing is on the wall for ICE vehicles.
BMW is one of the few that is still on the right path of advancing hydrogen technology. It will pay off for them big time in the very near future. The CEO resigned for personal reasons. Had nothing to do with EV. BMW is offering cool new ICE models not EV. I'll buy one of them next year. Also Toyota, Hyundai, Honda and Mercedes are spending big $$$ on hydrogen vehicles in their lineup. EV will be dead soon enough.
 

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I like optimists. They are much more interesting than pessimists. :)

To think that EVs are not the future is to be very short-sighted.
Here's a hint of your future. In 2012 a Green Car blog predicted that there would be 10 - 15M hybrid/EVs worldwide by 2020. :laugh:

>>>>>> With one year to go, there are 5.6M. Are they going to make it? Yeah, doubtful to make the MINIMUM number.

my personal stable of cars.
I always loved it when people say they have "stables". I just got a small corral ;) Where does that phrase come from anyway? NM, that has nothing to do with the fuel for your ponies.

many of them will be cheaper to buy than ICE-only vehicles, and they will be immensely cheaper to maintain (no engine issues to maintain, and brakes will need replacing only once every 100k-200k miles, etc.).
The TCO argument is the weakest of all the pro EV arguments simply because the average buyer doesn't know what TCO means, nor care. They just want to know the monthly cost. What are the payment. Thats it. They do NOT drive 100 - 200K miles. Not happening in the same car. Not the average person. Average people don't keep spreadsheets, calculate MPG, or give a hoot about much of any of this, other than how much the car payment is coming from the weekly check.

For the average person owning a car for a length of 10-20 years
So sorry. The average buyer of a new car keeps it 7 years, a used car 66 months. Nowhere near 10 years nm 20 years. Who keeps cars 10 years? People here are bailing after 48 months because they don't want to be out of warranty. Some won't keep a Porsche more than a year? Time for the yearly oil change? Nah, just get a new car.

Sorry. I think your numbers are way off.

People mention above how cheap gasoline is right now in the USA
Porsche owners are not the group of people to be discussing gas prices. Who here really cares about the price of gas? See, the thing is, once gas hit $4, you get used to it. If it drops to $2.50, the give it away. Buy regular? Its free. They give away regular gas. I grant you the sports cars are more viewed as toys than the SUVs but still. Gas is dirt cheap. A fill up is like going out to supper. Really. How much is the cost for going to dinner versus filling up a Macan? Isn't it about the same?

This is another argument, at least in a Porsche forum, thats not going to go anywhere. Lemme see. Should I fill her up or go get some supper? Let me think about that.

Gas stations are probably the most disgusting places that most people have to visit on a regular basis in their daily lives.
Actually, no, not at all. Not even close. Not even remotely close. The most disgusting place is the grocery store. I won't even mention that disgusting viral video of the person licking the ice cream. No, I mean the more mundane. All the people pawing over the produce, Pick it up, put it down, pick their noise, pull donuts and bagels with their hands from the bins. Where have those hands been? What orifice has the hands been in before touching the food you buy?

Where do you think you pick up colds and virus from? The gas station? No, where other humans have been and left their bacteria.

Gas stations disgusting? Not even close. I don't pick up the gas handle and put in in my mouth? You know anyone who pick up fruit or bread from bins and don't know who touched that food before yourself?

look at the Porsche 918 Spyder,
Not sure how many average buyers look at $1,000,000 cars.

If you want to really learn a lot of interesting stuff about BEVs, read through the very lengthy thread titled "Tesla existential threat?" at the Rennlist forum (under "Taycan and Mission E"); there you will find a lot of Porsche owners (including many who track their Porsches) who also own Teslas and rave about them, as well as engineers and others very knowledgeable about how BEVs work and discuss why they will take over the automotive industry in the coming decades.
You've brought that up multiple times. That's called "appeal to authority", a logical fallacy. Assuming someone who "tracks" a Porsche or owns one of the Porsche sports cars is an authority is an appeal. LOOK! No, its OK to rave about any car. I'm sure they are all Auto Enthusiasts. But that doesn't make anyone an authority.

The most fundamental issue, at least for the EU, is purely strategic. Cut off the oil and gas and they die.

For the US, its totally different. No sovereign nation will ever give up energy independence and allow itself to be dependent upon potential enemies. That would be contrary to the history of mankind. If you believe that will happen, maybe read some history?
 

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Although I agree with you in principle, not all countries in the EU will suffer equally if the gas and oil lines are cut.

France has 58 nuclear power plants which supplies almost 73% of that countries electricity.
I'm good with Nukes. No problem. Unfortunately, most of the rest of the world is hating on them. Something about radiation leaks that freak them out. HBO didn't help this any, freaking out people. I'd be all for building all nuclear power plants everywhere.

I'm ready for a cold fusion car. That works. Nuclear is good. Solar and wind is far too dependent upon the whims of nature. No sun, no wind, no power.

But nukes? they always glow, half life dependent.
 

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I'm good with Nukes. No problem. Unfortunately, most of the rest of the world is hating on them. Something about radiation leaks that freak them out. HBO didn't help this any, freaking out people. I'd be all for building all nuclear power plants everywhere.

I'm ready for a cold fusion car. That works. Nuclear is good. Solar and wind is far too dependent upon the whims of nature. No sun, no wind, no power.

But nukes? they always glow, half life dependent.
Well this might go off topic and I'm much in favor of safe nuclear. But safety needs be 100%! I remember Chernobyl and I was living 1200 miles away at the time. Couldn't go outside much for a week or two because of it. Couldn't ever go hunting again with my grandpa while he was still alive. No more picking mushrooms safely until today. It does suck if it goes wrong.
:(
Edit: And no I won't watch the HBO show...Followed the real thing, no need to see the "dramatization".
 

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Here's a hint of your future. In 2012 a Green Car blog predicted that there would be 10 - 15M hybrid/EVs worldwide by 2020. :laugh:

>>>>>> With one year to go, there are 5.6M. Are they going to make it? Yeah, doubtful to make the MINIMUM number.

Numbers are always hard to predict. That doesn't mean we aren't heading in the direction of BEV dominance in the coming decades.



The TCO argument is the weakest of all the pro EV arguments simply because the average buyer doesn't know what TCO means, nor care. They just want to know the monthly cost. What are the payment. Thats it. They do NOT drive 100 - 200K miles. Not happening in the same car. Not the average person. Average people don't keep spreadsheets, calculate MPG, or give a hoot about much of any of this, other than how much the car payment is coming from the weekly check.

You're missing the point. The average joe cares about how much a car is going to cost to buy and to own.


So sorry. The average buyer of a new car keeps it 7 years, a used car 66 months. Nowhere near 10 years nm 20 years. Who keeps cars 10 years? People here are bailing after 48 months because they don't want to be out of warranty. Some won't keep a Porsche more than a year? Time for the yearly oil change? Nah, just get a new car.

Sorry. I think your numbers are way off.

OK, but I know tons of friends and relatives who keep their cars much longer than 10 years. This isn't about Porsches; it's about BEVs and the average person.



Porsche owners are not the group of people to be discussing gas prices. Who here really cares about the price of gas? See, the thing is, once gas hit $4, you get used to it. If it drops to $2.50, the give it away. Buy regular? Its free. They give away regular gas. I grant you the sports cars are more viewed as toys than the SUVs but still. Gas is dirt cheap. A fill up is like going out to supper. Really. How much is the cost for going to dinner versus filling up a Macan? Isn't it about the same?
Again, this is not about Porsche owners. This is about BEVs, and their present and future acceptance and development and purchase and practicality.

Gas stations disgusting? Not even close.

Yeah, most people would agree with me that gas stations are the worst place they visit on a regular basis in daily life. Stores?! seriously, Grim??? I don't think I've ever come home from a store with unwanted gasoline (or any other toxic chemical) on my hands, clothes, or shoes.



Not sure how many average buyers look at $1,000,000 cars.

That's not the point, and you know it. The point is that Porsche made its most impressive car with electric motors to make it the most impressive. People in this thread have been knocking EVs as performance cars. I was responding to that.



You've brought that up multiple times. That's called "appeal to authority", a logical fallacy. Assuming someone who "tracks" a Porsche or owns one of the Porsche sports cars is an authority is an appeal. LOOK! No, its OK to rave about any car. I'm sure they are all Auto Enthusiasts. But that doesn't make anyone an authority.
No, the point wasn't authority, but rather to point out that people very familiar with ICE performance cars and Teslas do not put down Teslas -- again, a response to some of what has been written on this thread. And also to point out a source of very interesting reading on the topic of this thread, for those who don't know about that particular Rennlist thread.
 

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...Yes, there are problems with charging infrastructure and driving range. .. For the average person owning a car for a length of 10-20 years...Two-thirds of Americans own a garage for their cars...Gas stations are probably the most disgusting places that most people have to visit on a regular basis in their daily lives; there is nothing remotely nice about going to gas stations to fill up...
I think the issue is the TIME required to charge the car. When you can fill an empty gas tank & be on your way in 10 minutes but, cannot do anything close to that with an EV, it is a problem for many people.
I recall reading about (Tesla?) Where you stop at a charging station & the attendant swaps the battery in your EV with a fully charged one & you're on your way quick. That was interesting. However, when the battery eventually fails as all batteries do, was it bc you swapped your 1 month old battery for a 4 year old one on its last legs & bad luck... it failed while YOU had it so, YOU must pay for a new one? That issue would need to be solved.

Most people do not own cars for 10 years & forget about 20. Most people do not take care of their cars. Google this. Don't rely on what your group of friends do.

⅔ of US households do NOT have a garage, not even close. You should be more careful throwing around these stats.
Someone may believe you. I think you are misunderstanding or misquoting a survey where ~ 2/3 had a garage OR a carport. Garages are much better vs. carports.

I do not go to disgusting gas stations. I'm sure there are some.

I also do not get gasoline smell on my hands (& transfer it to my steering wheel & interior of my cars) bc I use the 'free' paper towels so, do not actually touch anything. I'm surprised more people do not do this.

I would vote for public restrooms as a very disgusting place ---depending on where you go.
<GRIN>

I think the government will eventually force EVs upon us, either directly or indirectly, through fees, taxes, tax breaks & other interference in the economy.

Until then, I will enjoy driving my great cars!
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Focusing on emissions is part of the solution. Its not the problem. The problem is published on the EU website. The countries in Europe are dependent upon foreign powers for their energy. Cut off the supply and they freeze to death and then die. Watch the video on that website. They are telling you the plan. The know what's going to happen.

EVs are part of the strategy to reduce foreign dependence on energy. Fines are part of the strategy to enforce the EV solution. The end game is to not be dependent on Russia. They have run the scenarios. Read https://ec.europa.eu/energy/sites/ener/files/documents/IP-14-1162_EN.pdf They know exactly what will happen.

Don't look at this from the POV of an auto enthusiasts. Look at it from the POV of Europeans. They have gone through two World Wars where the landscape was ravaged, the cities destroyed and tens of millions killed. You don't think that can happen again? How long did it take Europe to rebuild after WWII? When did rationing stop in England? Porsche is a bit player in this, one brand of many. They will do what they need to do for VAG, Germany, and Europe to survive.
Preface -- Any legislative document is fair game to interpretation and amendment over time . Sure todays paper with the current leadership points in direction A but 5 , 10 , 15 years from now .. who can know. Remember diesel ? It was oh so hot and now its oh so not .

What is told on paper is merely a statement . It does not reveal the backstory or complexities in establishing those goals.

So in short .. I have kept a focus on three aspects .. the consumer , the product , and the manufacturer . All that I wrote about the politics is the emissions requirements .

1) As independent as any nation wants to feel the economy is still a global phenomenon . Sure there are levels of influence but when a major player like the German auto industry faces a hiccup then its becomes far more significant . BTW .. Russia does buy German cars to . Take a look at the Moscow Unlimited events and see how many European cars show up.

2) The notion. of "cutting off" the energy supply of any nation with allies and support sounds catastrophic and perhaps the politicians or the media (or both) might choose to sensationalize this but why ? There's no incentive to knock out the economy of a nation who is not even at war.

3) Granted there are environmentalists who clearly are indoctrinated to believe that this is somehow a solution . They clearly are scared that humans will destroy the planet in filth . So of the visible effects like oil spills or smog are real but the amount of baseless assertions fly too. When I hear an uneducated person pounding the parent about climate change I find it equally as mind boggling as the intelligent panderers who pound the pavement as a means of securing votes .

So the question. . Do you think EV is here to stay or will it dissolve ?
 

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Discussion Starter #33
I'm not ready for BEV-only, but I'm ready to leave ICE-only vehicles in the rear-view mirror in terms of my personal stable of cars.
You do realize that every EV car in a household will need a charge station if they are used . Some households have more than 5 cars and that does not even mention those who live an apartments with no garage . Sure when one drives up to Whole Foods and sees a few cars charging its a non issue . However if EVERYONE has to charge and ALL the cars are EV then its a real issue .

Right now most cars are ICE cars . Have you ever seen a situation when more cars need it and fuel is tight .. like a hurricane .. where a quick fill suddenly becomes a two hour wait on a long line of ticked off people ?

Or how about a power outage .Some gas stations have generators. what is even used to supply a charge station outage ? In fact with a major power outage the first to get restored are hospital and police grids . What good is it if doctors and cops can't even drive to work ?

It;'s one thing to drive a high end golf cart in a city to feel all earth conscious and its quite another to operate an entire transportation system with it . After all .. if EV is the final "only" and the last word in car production then do the zealots even consider that it might actually cause an entire new set of problems outside of the environment ? Or are they that one step focused ?
 

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The whole car ownership thing will change.

You drive 30 minutes to the office, the car stays unused all day until you drive home, do chores, take the kids to their clubs, next day repeat so in a typical day the car is used for two hours max.

That is a waste of global resources.

Autonomous vehicles, central induction charging stations, App oriented travel. Dial up when you want a journey to and from your destination and the car picks you up, then after you get out it moves on to the next booking.

There is always alternatives if you want car ownership.

The Tesla Home power station is a great model, with modifications for multiple cars requiring charging and it is good to go for all.

Here in the UK we have a whole generation of young that simply cannot drive, learning is expensive and insurance is sky high so our young make alternative journey plans.
 

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It;'s one thing to drive a high end golf cart in a city to feel all earth conscious and its quite another to operate an entire transportation system with it .
I golfed yesterday at a club that converted to all electric carts. Loved ‘em. No more belching fumes. Forget about cars, I’m lobbying the board at my course to convert.
 

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Well this might go off topic and I'm much in favor of safe nuclear. But safety needs be 100%! I remember Chernobyl and I was living 1200 miles away at the time. Couldn't go outside much for a week or two because of it. Couldn't ever go hunting again with my grandpa while he was still alive. No more picking mushrooms safely until today. It does suck if it goes wrong.
:(
Edit: And no I won't watch the HBO show...Followed the real thing, no need to see the "dramatization".
Maybe you should watch Chernobyl on HBO, then you'd realize you can't compare the unsafe and cheaply built reactors in Russia to the West's better built reactors. The failure at Three Mile Island PALES in comparison.
 

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Sure when one drives up to Whole Foods and sees a few cars charging its a non issue . However if EVERYONE has to charge and ALL the cars are EV then its a real issue.
I don't see gas stations at all establishments...

Or how about a power outage. Some gas stations have generators. what is even used to supply a charge station outage ? In fact with a major power outage the first to get restored are hospital and police grids . What good is it if doctors and cops can't even drive to work ?
EV vehicles can't be charged with generators too?

It;'s one thing to drive a high end golf cart in a city to feel all earth conscious and its quite another to operate an entire transportation system with it . After all .. if EV is the final "only" and the last word in car production then do the zealots even consider that it might actually cause an entire new set of problems outside of the environment ? Or are they that one step focused ?
No one is forcing you to buy an EV. The real zealots are the conspiracists that are aligned with the fossil fuel industry.
 

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Well this might go off topic and I'm much in favor of safe nuclear. But safety needs be 100%! I remember Chernobyl and I was living 1200 miles away at the time. Couldn't go outside much for a week or two because of it. Couldn't ever go hunting again with my grandpa while he was still alive. No more picking mushrooms safely until today. It does suck if it goes wrong.
:(
Edit: And no I won't watch the HBO show...Followed the real thing, no need to see the "dramatization".
Maybe you should watch Chernobyl on HBO, then you'd realize you can't compare the unsafe and cheaply built reactors in Russia to the West's better built reactors. The failure at Three Mile Island PALES in comparison.
Got to agree with @Masscan here. You can't compare the two. That was then. This is now. Google 4th generation nuclear reactors. E.G. Generation IV Nuclear Reactors: WNA - World Nuclear Association They know all about this this.

But still, the idea of glowing in the dark freaks out many. Not sure why. I was so looking forward to nuclear powered airplanes that could continuously circle the globe without getting a refill. Ideas from the 1950s. Imagine that.
 

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Preface -- Any legislative document is fair game to interpretation and amendment over time . ...

So the question. . Do you think EV is here to stay or will it dissolve ?
We cannot ignore the driving force behind the German EVs, and that is the EU itself. They laid out out. Just read, for example https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Energy_production_and_imports They know whats driving them. This is not political in nature. Its existential in nature. They have lived through the ravages of two world wars. They know what it means to have their cities destroyed and many millions killed. If non-nuclear war comes to that continent again, they are in big trouble simply because they cannot fuel their needs. They acknowledge this. Part of that solution is battery driven transportation. Its not "climate change" driving this. Its their very existence at stake.

Yes, I believe EV are here to stay for Europe. I think they have learned, the hard way, the lessons of history. Just reading their material, they know they have to stick together as some kind of union to continue to exist. They have to band together stronger as a union of different cultures and languages rather than to die alone. Its like "Been there, done that". Only fools don't learn from history.

So I do think EVs are here to stay for Europe, although it just seems to shift the natural resources issue from one country to another. I don't see the point of becoming dependent upon the Congo. What are they going to do, send in a EU Army to take over that nation if another nation cuts off the supply or the Congo itself cuts off the supply?

The US is an entirely different game. That is the power of energy independence. No longer is the US dependent upon OPEC or the whims of Middle East unrest.
 

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The whole car ownership thing will change.

You drive 30 minutes to the office, the car stays unused all day until you drive home, do chores, take the kids to their clubs, next day repeat so in a typical day the car is used for two hours max.

That is a waste of global resources.
:rolleyes: Back to Transportation as a Service.

Here's a waste of global resources. How about all the people with all their clothes just sitting their in closets, unused, unworn, day after day, year after year. What a waste of manufacturing and natural resources to produce the trillions of dollars of good to just sit in closets.

How about lending out all your clothes, all your goods, everything you own to others rather than letting those global resources rot in closets? How about all the homeless people that can use those clothes? How about all the poor, the uneducated, all those who suffer in poverty? How about giving them access to all your stuff, all the time your not using it?

Why is it TAAS alway rears its head in EV discussions? Yet the concept of all the other components of life never get discussed "as a service"? No need to answer. I know the answer.
 
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