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I don’t think I’ve replied yet in this thread, that I recall anyhow... but the reading has been fun. I think the answer, unfortunately, is somewhere in the middle. Yeah, I get it... that’s a chicken response. But honestly, it’s the truth.

Are ICE cars doomed in the near future? Well, here in the U.S., probably not... not just for one reason, but for the MANY reasons that have already been discussed. Are they doomed in certain other parts of the world? Probably so. So what will happen? Simple... things will change, and companies & people will adapt... as they have always done. The companies that adapt fast and well will succeed. Those that don’t will fade away (some faster than others). New ones will be created; old antiquated ones will die.

I agree with Grim on the broad level spectrum of events.... No way in **** the U.S. is giving up energy independence now that we have it. But, could we develop technology that doesn’t require much (if any) global assistance? Sure. But when, how fast, and market acceptance will be the judge of its timeline. These things have already been mentioned.

On to EV... is it coming? Yep. Will it completely replace ICE? Not anytime soon IMO (here in the U.S.). “Experts” are saying 10-20 years; but I doubt that. 30-50 years? That may be true. However, it will become more mainstream... simply because, as the generations pass, I think less and less people are interested in the features we as “car people” care about. The infrastructure will get better, pricing will come down. Acceptance will increase. And the younger kids will not care about “exhaust burbles” or high-revving RPMS... And as that # dwindles, the # for simple appliance driving will increase. More and more kids these days wants to make a change in the environment and the world... they feel like corporate man-kind has done a lot of evil over the past 30 years, and they will do what it takes to change it. They don’t understand the past wars, lives lost, and global economies that have taken decades to build and rectify... and they probably don’t care. I’m not faulting them for anything; it’s just the way the world is turning right now in 2019.

The eventual change will indeed happen... possibly with technologies we have never even seen yet. I just don’t think it’ll happen (at least here in the U.S.) in the timeline most advocates think it will.

But hey... just my .2 cents as a Gen X’r.... so what do I know?... :)
 

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^ Well said TXRed!
 

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Just everyone who uses Apple Maps, Google Maps, or Waze on either their smart phone, or through Apple CarPlay/Android.

Was that an actual serious question Grim? Do you hate technology that much? :eek:
If your life is dependent on a smart phone, I feel bad. Do you take long trips into areas you never been before, driving vacations? You do know there are places in the US with no cell signal? I would NEVER take such a trip dependent upon Waze OR GPS. ALWAYS take a map. Its like a guy going hiking into the mountains only to drop a portable GPS, break it, and NOT having a paper, waterproof map. REALLY bad idea. I got NO problem using Waze, I like it. But I would never be SOLELY dependent upon it. Huge mistake.

My one regret in traveling so far is not doing the Alcan. Try getting a cell signal on that. There are big stretches in the US with no signal. See how much fun it is being stranded and dependent on cellular telephone and you'll be wishing you rented that sat phone for a month. Those who are totally dependent upon a cell phone could, easily, one day be in for a very rude awakening. In my experience, it takes a life changing to understand how deadly being unprepared could be.

At some point Grim, the line of personal responsibility needs to be drawn. Lots of "things" can happen to an ICE vehicle as well besides just running out of gas.:rolleyes:
I see what they do. They steal it. Just yesterday Tesla owner leaves car plugged into a stranger's Lake Worth home

Its unimaginable to me that a stranger just trespasses on your property and then steals service. Can I guess they felt "entitled"? I can understand helping out a stranger in need. I can't imagine just stealing it without leaving a phone # and address. Another one, a year ago on Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/8mi4ly/charged_with_theft_of_service_for_charging_my/ The issue is not that its petty theft, not worth prosecuted. Its what some probably see as an attitude of entitlement. Why not just take it? Its only a few dollars. Until that happens to someone who has a shotgun who finds the entitled trespassing and stealing on their property. At least leave $5 by the electric outlet.

AAA rolling away with a 10 mile charge or towing the car makes sense.

I agree with Grim on the broad level spectrum of events.... No way in **** the U.S. is giving up energy independence now that we have it. But, could we develop technology that doesn’t require much (if any) global assistance? Sure. But when, how fast, and market acceptance will be the judge of its timeline. These things have already been mentioned.
I got no problem with that. Cold Fusion sounds good. Teleporting, time to beam me up. But anything else :laugh: They really need to take a class in History.
 

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Imagine deciding to protest in DC in the summer. You superglue to doors, blocking the path in a government building to protest climate change. https://nypost.com/2019/07/24/climate-change-protesters-arrested-after-super-gluing-themselves-to-us-capitol/

Get arrested and per the news article, 8 charged with resisting arrest, 15 with defacing public property and all 17 with "incommoding", whatever that is. US government property means federal crimes.

Innocent until proven guilty but if fined, the money goes into the US Treasury.

Fossil Fuel Subsidies come from from the US Treasury. Fossil Fuel Subsidies: Overview - Oil Change International

By protesting you help enable the very thing you want to eliminate. The Irony.
 

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Re: grim's comments of the theft of electricity.


I recently had a very few sections of vinyl fencing installed. When finished the owner/crew chief pointed
out to me a section of the lattice that he broke on installation. I noticed he had been struggling quite a bit
when he installed that piece, though I hadn't observed him breaking it. We left it that he would return in
a few days to repair it.

I figured, "OK, when he returns, I'll pay him. Otherwise, if he was fully paid, there would be no incentive
to return". Several weeks passed. A week ago, his office admin called us and started berating us for not
paying for the installation work. I explained to her what had happened and she replied we should have
called to complain that he hadn't returned. I explained to her, again, that in order to be paid, he needed
to return and correct the situation.

The next day he called and I explained to him I was not too excited about his gluing the broken piece when he
stated he would not stand behind the repair. When I mentioned replacing the part, at his expense, he retorted
that since he had not provided the materials (top quality, BTW, from a nationally known manufacturer) he would
not pay for a replacement part. His suggestion was that the part broke because it may have been defective.
That was not consistent with his original explanation, that he broke the part.


So - he refuses to stand behind his "workmanship" (forcing and breaking the part) and refuses to accept
responsibility for his actions (breaking the part), claiming 'defective equipment'.



We could see this was headed nowhere, so we sent a check - certified, return receipt requested.

We will be adding our comments about his business and practices to yelp.


What is wrong with people?!?!?



:(
 

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If you all think this dependence on REE and Cobalt is going to result in a long term, complete transformation of the US transportation industry, I really suggest reading some history. What's the WHO saying about Ebola right now in the Congo? If that country collapses, who is going to go and get all the cobalt for your EVs? Are you going to tell American soldiers to go get boots on the ground and capture the Cobalt fields because the Congo fell apart and the US needs that Cobalt for your batteries? Really?
Spot on Grim. The biggest thing that irks me about the EV movement is this underlying notion that EVs don’t come with their own environmental and political costs. Mining for cobalt is destructive to the environment - but who cares, its just out of sight and mind in some third world country, right? REEs are coined “rare” for a reason. Unless battery tech changes dramatically in short order, the US will NEVER get out of Afghanistan - it is a currently untapped source of REEs. China is already beating the US to the punch to control REE resources throughout Africa, been going on for years now and we were watching it closely when I was still a military guy. And then the electricity... it had to be generated by another power source, most of which are not yet “clean”. Lastly, yes, when it comes down to it, history shows that there will always be armed. conflict when two or more parties compete for a limited resource. My hope is that EV is transitionary and hydrogen (highly available) or other clean and available tech takes over sooner than later.
 

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Spot on Grim. The biggest thing that irks me about the EV movement is this underlying notion that EVs don’t come with their own environmental and political costs. Mining for cobalt is destructive to the environment - but who cares, its just out of sight and mind in some third world country, right? .
If you are big on EVs, their future, and care about these kinds of things, I happened across this podcast Drilled. . They seem to be saying that oil companies knew all along, just like tobacco companies knew all along, what was going on. Temps going up. And its seems they went for profits. I don't know why anyone has to study that. Why wouldn't they go after the profits? :rolleyes: What are they going to do, try to go out of business? Thats so odd to worry about that. "Hey, lets go out off business!!!" Sounds like a plan. So the blueprint seems to be to follow the Tobacco Road. "They knew". So what? No one "needs" tobacco. You do "need" to get from Point A to Point B. Ask yourself why all those that push for EVs NEVER explain HOW things would work in a completely EV world, where all cars/trucks in the US were dependent upon foreign resources. WHY don't they talk about that? Explain whats going to happen when you can't get near the Cobalt Mines because of Ebola and the Congo collapses, etc.

Hydrogen sounds good. The Toyota Mirai exists. Why are there not more Hydrogen cars?
 

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After listening to more short episodes of Drilled, I can recommend it as an excellent podcast, and it makes no difference what you believe, pro, con, or don't care. Its fascinating to listen to the tobacco vs deniers comparisons. The one thing that struck me is the false equivalency line, that is, they no longer will debate those who don't believe. IMO thats the worse thing they can do. Thats analogous to those who told those who used leeches to bleed the sick - NO - leeches bad, and the prevailing theory was - NO, this is how its done, we are not going to debate you anymore. Stifling debate - a sure why to get people on your side?
 

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Wow a lot going on in this thread.

To answer OP, I sure hope not, I just bought one a little over a month ago. This after deciding it was time to sell my 2016 Macan S.

So why did I sell? FWIW, I am one of those who did look at TCO prior to buying my Macan. I did the research on maintenance, insurance, etc. But I fell in love with the car and the value for the price of the Macan still made it worth it to me, even with the Porsche “tax” on oil changes and maintenance, etc. I planned on owning it for 10+ years.

Then some things happened. Changes in personal finances - like 3 years of less than stellar year end bonuses (read almost nothing). Throw in some unexpected expenses - washer/dryer here, pet surgery there and the kicker, my daughter being accepted to her dream school (private tuition instead of state) and it had me thinking something more practical. Adding to that my confidence in my specific car was shook, when it spent nearly a month in the shop and had several “repairs” that would have been close to $10K out of warranty (6 months remaining). This would have been fine if the original problem was fixed, but it wasn’t. Did they really need to do all those fixes? Did they do them correctly? Will they ever be able to fix the original problem? I was also concerned I had early warning signs of a transfer case issue, and if it failed after warranty they might have fixed it under goodwill, but maybe not. So with all that and an upcoming 40K mile service ($1900), new brakes and rotors ($2100) and likely new tires by end of year, I decided “hey I enjoyed the **** out of this car for 3.5 years, but sadly it’s time to move on”.

So why the Tesla Model 3? I live in a blue state, but that doesn’t reflect my politics. I certainly didn’t buy it “to save the world”. I considered it because my commute is maybe 20 miles per day. I live in Orange County, CA. I can make a round trip to San Diego to visit family on a single charge (and I got the SR+ with a 240 mile range). Can also take a trip up to Santa Barbara without stopping to charge. Next, when I found out there was virtually no maintenance required other than topping off the wiper fluid and rotating the tires every 12K miles, even brakes last into the 100K mile range due to regenerative braking, I decided it was time for a test drive. I wasn’t expecting much from the 3, I mean it’s not an S right? All I can say is the car is every bit as quick and fun to drive as my Macan S. After one test drive I was sold, just like the Macan. The big iPad is polarizing, but one step on the accelerator and I’m guessing most drivers will get over it in a hurry. I can only imagine what the Performance Model is like to drive (much like I never test drove the Macan Turbo, I purposely only drove the lower trim so I didn’t know what I was missing).

For the price of my Macan S, I received 3.5 years of fun, then with proceeds from the sale, combined with all the incentives and rebates, I basically got a free Model 3 plus a check for $750 at the end of the year. Regardless of incentives, the car is basically $40k, so car payments too high? Nope I don’t think so. If you put another $20k for the performance model you get more range and a car that’s faster than almost anything on the road.

I realize it’s not for everyone, especially where you live (cold weather, no garage, etc.), what you need and expect out of a vehicle. But I paid $500 (1/4 of my first year gas savings) for a NEMA 14-50 outlet in my garage and I get 32 miles / hour charge. I don’t have to charge every night and could easily share with another EV if we had two. Sure, it might be a problem if we both had 90 mile one-way commutes, but then spend another $500 for a wall charger to support two cars.

Supercharger network is there to be used on trips (although many may have to use them for daily charging, if they don’t have home or work access). The network is getting bigger and the charging speeds are increasing. You can charge to 100%, but it’s not good for the battery to let it sit there for too long. It should be timed for leaving on a trip. The other reason not to go to 100% is the regenerative braking is limited as there is nowhere to store the energy. All that said you don’t need to charge to 100%, the last 10% is what takes the longest. I just took a trip to Santa Barbara, on the way back we made a stop at a SuperCharger, kids went to the restroom, bought some cupcakes and by the time they were back 10-12 minutes we had more than enough to complete the trip home. I’d say it’s not much different than a road trip in an ICE car. And the 1000 mile range requirement above? Haha, unless your going to slide on some Depends and not stop for food during your trip, just not real. Main difference is you might not be able to be as spontaneous (as with an ICE vehicle) and you have to plan your trip and stops around the Superchargers. But the time spent charging is going down and is not even enough time to grab a bite to eat. While I didn’t buy my car to take an 11 hour road trip, I’d have no problem doing it, and with the larger battery pack I’m guessing it would be very comparable in terms of overall time with an ICE car (tons of YouTube vids and blogs of people doing them). Then there is the planned VWG Electrify America network coming soon. So yeah should get better with more options to charge.

If you run out on the side of the road call Tesla roadside and a flatbed will take you to the next supercharger. You foot the bill though.

The battery has an 8 year warranty, so if I still have it after that, then we will see. Elon says, replacements will be in the $5-7K range (and that they should last for 300-400K miles). But Elon says a lot of things...

Now insurance is another thing, higher than my Macan, which can be attributed IMO to insufficient spare body panels, no independent body shops, etc. Hopefully this gets addressed.

Even if you don’t believe you will ever participate in the self-driving taxi network, it is coming (regulators will prevent it being sooner than later). What also is coming is the day and old age where we no longer feel comfortable getting behind the wheel. When that time comes being able to crawl into the car and tell it to take me to Costco will be a good thing.

I’ll be honest the one thing I miss from my Macan was the cold start sound and then making it burp. But I have just as much fun in the Tesla, and I miss my Macan less each day. I still get fond memories every time I see one one the road. Well not the ones with the light bar ;) - but that’s another thread.

I’ve had it a little over a month, and has been a blast to drive. I wake up with a full “tank” every morning. And the car improves over time with over the air updates. I’m certainly not one to try and convince anyone to “convert”. But I’d encourage anyone who hasn’t driven one, to check one out. I’m guessing the Taycan will be awesome, and who knows maybe after the last tuition payment is made there will be an EV Macan to trade up to. Whether some other technology comes along to render these obsolete as discussed above who knows, we will see.
I completely agree with swmalm. I see so many of who are commenting on this thread are either do not know or uninformed about EV cars. When your mind is negative, all it comes out is negativity and that is what with entire 12 Page of comments are. If all would have been True, Tesla would have not sold number of cars what they have sold so far. They have sold more cars than MB, BMW, AUDI and other luxury cars combined quarter after quarter and Do not forget about AUTOPILOT, I drive my Model X on auto pilot 80% of my commute daily. at the same time, I like My Wife's Macan but it is no where close to any of the Tesla 3, S or X.
 

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I completely agree with swmalm. I see so many of who are commenting on this thread are either do not know or uninformed about EV cars. When your mind is negative, all it comes out is negativity and that is what with entire 12 Page of comments are. If all would have been True, Tesla would have not sold number of cars what they have sold so far. They have sold more cars than MB, BMW, AUDI and other luxury cars combined quarter after quarter and Do not forget about AUTOPILOT, I drive my Model X on auto pilot 80% of my commute daily. at the same time, I like My Wife's Macan but it is no where close to any of the Tesla 3, S or X.
Don’t you see? That’s the point most members on a Porsche forum are arguing about/for... Your exact words are “I drive my Model X on auto pilot 80% of my commute daily.” Most Porsche owners WANT TO DRIVE THEIR CARS... for the feel... the sound... the relationship of driver input to car reaction. That’s why they buy Porsches. How many members on this forum used the phrase (about test driving) “once we drove the Macan, it was an easy choice”? It’s because of the things I just mentioned. Not the MPG. Not the technology. Not the quiet drive. I can count on one hand the amount of times I have used cruised control in the past 5 years.

Does that make either of us more right than the other? Of course not. But I think the overwhelming argument on here is the understanding of how many U.S. drivers still want this type of user interface when driving their cars (and the experience that goes with it). That, plus how & when the U.S. government would actually allow this actual change to happen...

And yes, there are many owners who fall into BOTH categories... such as myself. We are considering a Tesla for my wife’s next car. I think it would be great. But that’s not what I WANT to drive every day... I want to hear my car growl when I start it, or slap thru downshifts while hammering my brakes before entering a fun corner. EV for that? Umm, no. So the question remains, will there be room for both technologies to co-exist? Or will one win out?
 

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Don’t you see? That’s the point most members on a Porsche forum are arguing about/for... Your exact words are “I drive my Model X on auto pilot 80% of my commute daily.” Most Porsche owners WANT TO DRIVE THEIR CARS... for the feel... the sound... the relationship of driver input to car reaction. That’s why they buy Porsches. How many members on this forum used the phrase (about test driving) “once we drove the Macan, it was an easy choice”? It’s because of the things I just mentioned. Not the MPG. Not the technology. Not the quiet drive. I can count on one hand the amount of times I have used cruised control in the past 5 years.
I was not referring to those who want to drive their car for feel but i was referring to those who was mocking EV for charging aspect, noise aspects. I hate driving so Auto Pilot is great option but even who do not hate to drive, also, I think will enjoy is once get used to it. I feel safer with autopilot then me driving in most cases. People do not realize that once you install EV Charger (around $500) you have a gas station at home and you hardly have to charge outside. In my one year of owning Tesla, I have only charged three times and it is on long drive, you do not have to drive two hours to charge for your daily commute. Also, people are comparing about charging with 110V charger which no EV owner should charge. Having 250 + Miles available daily on your car is more than most driver drive a day so it should not be even issue to talk about. People wants to cry for nothing just to put down to others and satisfy own ego.
 

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I dont think you understand, there is a difference. Lets follow what you wrote:

" I hate driving"

Don't you see that is exactly what @TXRed just said? Sometimes, I drive JUST TO DRIVE, to listen to the engine, to feel the road. Even among the SUV owners lots of them just drive their Macans to "drive". I think Your POV is 180 degrees opposite. That doesn't make it "wrong". It only makes its the opposite.

I feel safer with autopilot then me driving

You really trust the people who wrote that code? You really trust no one hacked the code? OMG. Do you know the ethical dilemma of self driving cars? There are many articles and videos on this?

Who does the car decide to kill? You? The lady on the side of the road? The busload of passengers on the side? You want a machine to make that decision, which had to be a predetermined algorithm. Someone has to write the software to that decided which path to take. Go left, go right, slam on the breaks. You trust they made the right decision AND it wasn't hacked?

What happens when government gets into this as policy decisions. Should we save the child and let the old folks die?


People wants to cry for nothing just to put down to others and satisfy own ego

No one should be flaming anyone. We all make our own choices.. Its OK to want to be chauffeured around. But not everyone is like you. We are all different. Everyone likes what they want to like.
 

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“How many members on this forum used the phrase (about test driving) “once we drove the Macan, it was an easy choice”?

For the record, I am one of those members that said that, maybe not verbatim, but yes was sold after one test drive of the Macan. Absolutely loved the car and would do it all over again.

Also for the record I had the exact same reaction after my one and only test drive of a Model 3. I get it if some people derive a large portion of satisfaction from the sound and guttural feel, then they might not have that same reaction. I loved the sound of my Macan as well. But for me, the vehicle reaction to driver input is there in the Model 3. It handles great, and acceleration is always on tap, making for a really fun, connected driver experience. YMMV, and as grim points out different strokes.

As for Autopilot, I too love to drive. Never used cruise on my Macan. I’ll say this though, my personal vision of **** and the afterlife is waking up in a 500hp Ferrari with manual transmission and thinking I passed through the pearly gates only to then realize I’m stuck in a rush hour parking lot on the 405 freeway riding the clutch and never getting out of first gear for all eternity. Autopilot shines in stop and go freeway driving greatly reducing driver fatigue. I’ve had many 3 hour trips that in normal conditions should have taken an hour in my Macan, Infiniti G35 and even the wife’s Acura MDX, where I felt completely spent when finally getting home. Had one similar drive in my Model 3 using autopilot and it makes a huge difference. No constant foot hovering alternately over the gas pedal and brake. Use it when it makes sense and it’s very nice to have. Leave it off when you want to have some fun in the twisties.

Full Self Driving is different than Autopilot, and is not even out yet. You can pay for it now and in the interim get access to some additional features like Summon and Navigate on Autopilot which will take you from on-ramp to off-ramp on a trip and automatically overtake slower vehicles, etc. FSD is coming though. All systems currently require the driver to remain attentive and ready to take over. In terms of hacking the car directly, not very likely as only code cryptographically signed by Tesla will run on their FSD chip. Still people can be hacked, meaning an internal Tesla employee unwittingly provides access OR a bad actor within Tesla wreaks havoc. Same thing that could happen to missile guidance systems software and airline autopilot systems to name a few. Those systems have rigorous tests, and regulators will ensure Tesla and any of the other companies pursuing autonomous driving are subject to that same level of stringent testing. The tech with the number of sensors and cameras will be able to detect, react and avoid issues quicker and better than a human, at some point in the future (of course it’s not there today from what I’ve researched and even experienced with my autopilot). However, Tesla has about a half million supercomputers (and growing) driving around sending up data to continually improve the machine learning models, which then get redeployed back to the cars through OTA updates, continually improving the car. Now I won’t buy it now and maybe not even when it becomes available, because why should the car have all the fun? But when the day comes that the DMV or my doctor says I’m no longer fit to drive, then yeah sign me up for FSD so I can keep some level of independence.
 

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Had one similar drive in my Model 3 using autopilot and it makes a huge difference. No constant foot hovering alternately over the gas pedal and brake. Use it when it makes sense and it’s very nice to have. Leave it off when you want to have some fun in the twisties.

Full Self Driving is different than Autopilot, and is not even out yet. You can pay for it now and in the interim get access to some additional features like Summon and Navigate on Autopilot which will take you from on-ramp to off-ramp on a trip and automatically overtake slower vehicles, etc. FSD is coming though. All systems currently require the driver to remain attentive and ready to take over. In terms of hacking the car directly, not very likely as only code cryptographically signed by Tesla will run on their FSD chip. Still people can be hacked, meaning an internal Tesla employee unwittingly provides access OR a bad actor within Tesla wreaks havoc. Same thing that could happen to missile guidance systems software and airline autopilot systems to name a few. Those systems have rigorous tests, and regulators will ensure Tesla and any of the other companies pursuing autonomous driving are subject to that same level of stringent testing. .
The name I was looking for was the Trolley Dilemma. Video below. These videos are easy to find.


Ted Talk


Out of Two Million People, Most Prefer That a Self-Driving Car Kill the Elderly Source Paper https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181024131501.htm from MIT

"2 million online participants from over 200 countries weighing in on versions of a classic ethical conundrum, the "Trolley Problem." ... preserving the lives of the young, rather than older people."

So if you think you're going to be old and the computer lets you live, the preference is you will die. Hence, the ethical issue of letting computers decide life and death.

If you are going to trust your life to the programmers who write the software, or their taskmaster writing policy to order how the software algorithms will work, then get ready for a short life if you are in such an encounter and the computers recognizes youth over the elderly. This is no joke. Its far different when a human instinctually makes a choice vs beforehand choice on who lives and who dies.

Second, if you think Tesla can't be hacked, I'll take the wild guess the most important transactions in the world are banking transactions or activity and yet, just yesterday Capitol One is hacked Crime is based upon probability of success. Why do people still fall for the old Nigerian Princes schemes? The more opportunity, the more criminals will appear. If autonomous driving becomes popular, expect big time attacks.

Follow the money. And its not the crimes you hear about that matter. Its the ones you don't. You really think banks want you to hear about their financial losses? Ask yourself - what do you not know? What are they not telling you?
 

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Second, if you think Tesla can't be hacked.......If autonomous driving becomes popular, expect big time attacks.

Follow the money....
Skimming again? Perhaps you missed the portion of my post where I fully acknowledge that people can be hacked, meaning a Tesla employee could be duped into providing access to servers or sensitive data. Or a disgruntled employee could hack the system. My point was the car itself cannot be remotely hacked as only code that is cryptographically signed can run on the FSD chips. Instead a threat would have to be injected into the code and delivered through normal processes.

Non-autonomous driving is really popular, with plenty of software that could be hacked, traction control, ABS, and countless others. Haven’t heard of any attacks waged on that front. Bugs? Sure.

Not sure where the money is in hacking autonomous driving, if we are following the money. Terrorism? Sure that’s a distinct possibility, but there are plenty of larger attack surfaces than autonomous driving. I suppose if you’re into conspiracy theory the government or big oil might be the money to drive such an attack, if they associate autonomous driving with BEVs. But of course autonomous driving can also be implemented in ICE cars, and certainly some level all ready is with auto steer and traffic aware cruise control.

There are plenty of ethical concerns around AI in general, and who makes the rules and provides the oversight is a big concern. On the other hand the millennial liking an Instagram post while driving or the drunk plowing through an intersection, isn’t using any type of intelligence artificial or otherwise when killing the old Or young person crossing the street.
 

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Skimming again? .
Knock of the personal attacks. Of course I read what you wrote. And of course there is no money in attacking ABS systems.

Money comes when there are large numbers. Its no different than viruses for window vs MacOS. There has to be money in it. Few Macs, many Windows machines. Which one has the best ROI for the criminals? Driving around in a big smart phone with over the air updates and being autonomous, regardless of chip design, is an invitation to those seeking big money whether it be to just steal the car for parts or to cause havoc. More opportunity. I can easily do a search and find attacks today. Example June, 2019 and getting information from the blackbox Look what this guy found. "A giant laptop on wheels"

If you are comfortable with that, then you are. If you are comfortable with letting a software programmer make ethical and moral decisions about life and death related the Trolley Problem, then you are.

https://www.wired.com/story/teslas-latest-autopilot-death-looks-like-prior-crash/
https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-why-crash-radar/

As these kind of automated systems become more popular, expect these problems to explode, simply because of larger numbers. Its a numbers game. More people injured and die, the more attention it will get in the media, the more the pushback. Right now, nobody cares. Its in the noise. A Tesla catches on fire, it doesnt make the national news. Nationally, nobody cares. Locally they care. Families certainly care, but nationally - meh. Nobody cares. Its not in the news so they don't know.

They will care as the numbers grow and ethical/moral issues become well known, if they ever do, in the national conscious. Then watch the explosion as the issue of AI making decision on human life explodes. Today, no body cares about the early adopters because the numbers are so low, they don't know whats happening or might happen. Its all a numbers game.

If an AI starts taking lives, think Pinto. Read the analysis. It sure looks like Ford made the conscious decision on how much a human life was worth. Now extrapolate that to an elderly life vs a young life. Which one has the potential of costing more and hence the payout be greater? These are the kinds of things society will be facing in the near future if such devices move into the mainstream. The AI will make a predetermined decision, programmed by some software programmer, probably dictated by some company policy or perhaps the government, and watch the public pushback and the lawsuits. It will make the Pinto case look like absolutely nothing in comparison.

BTW, if you think I care about cars being hacked, I don't. We all make choices. If you want a rolling smart car, then so be it. Buy one. Just don't complain about it five or 10 years from now when someone does some damage via exploitation in some way. OTOH, the ethics and morality issues of being dependent on any kind of AI will become a MASSIVE issue and when someone you know dies because of it, wait until you see the explosion then if the numbers grow and become forefront in the national social conscious.

 

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Take the Trolley Test. Who lives, who dies?

Who is going to write the code that makes those decisions or write the policies that the programmers must follow?

Moral Machine

If the Trolley problem is not familiar, the concept is simple. As you drive, you make decisions to preserve your own life. If you see a potential accident, in that fraction of a second before, your mind is going to do the instinctive thing to so the safest thing for YOU.

If software is making that decision, will it do the same thing? Or will a third party make the decision for you forfeiting your life for someone elses, and why? Think hard about the "why".
 

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What a coincidence. A report issued today, 7/31/19 from LA from a consumer watchdog group https://www.consumerwatchdog.org/privacy-technology/report-finds-hacking-internet-connected-cars-big-national-security-threat Actual report

“Kill Switch: Why Connected Cars Can Be Killing Machines And How To Turn Them Off,”

Way to much information to summarize. Just read it. Slamming OTA updates. Slamming the internet connection that the consumer cannot cut off because of hacking. Re Tesla 2019 SEC 10-K filings https://ir.tesla.com/node/19496/html p. 29 Read it yourself about Tesla hacking, future exploits, and remediation efforts. This report is not about Tesla itself but the entire concept of autos with forced internet connectivity. Tesla is just one example of many.
 

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Take the Trolley Test. Who lives, who dies?

Who is going to write the code that makes those decisions or write the policies that the programmers must follow?

Moral Machine

If the Trolley problem is not familiar, the concept is simple. As you drive, you make decisions to preserve your own life. If you see a potential accident, in that fraction of a second before, your mind is going to do the instinctive thing to so the safest thing for YOU.

If software is making that decision, will it do the same thing? Or will a third party make the decision for you forfeiting your life for someone elses, and why? Think hard about the "why".

This reminds me of the movie in which Will Smith deals with a robot who made a decision to save him over a child from drowning.

 

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What a coincidence. A report issued today, 7/31/19 from LA from a consumer watchdog group https://www.consumerwatchdog.org/privacy-technology/report-finds-hacking-internet-connected-cars-big-national-security-threat Actual report

“Kill Switch: Why Connected Cars Can Be Killing Machines And How To Turn Them Off,”

Way to much information to summarize. Just read it. Slamming OTA updates. Slamming the internet connection that the consumer cannot cut off because of hacking. Re Tesla 2019 SEC 10-K filings https://ir.tesla.com/node/19496/html p. 29 Read it yourself about Tesla hacking, future exploits, and remediation efforts. This report is not about Tesla itself but the entire concept of autos with forced internet connectivity. Tesla is just one example of many.
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

And like magic, what should appear on July 29? This paper https://journals.aps.org/pre/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevE.100.012316 Cite Georgia Institute of Technology. (2019, July 29). Hackers could use connected cars to gridlock whole cities. ScienceDaily. Retrieved August 1, 2019 from www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/07/190729111337.htm And the Summary from GA Tech Hackers Could Use Connected Cars to Gridlock Whole Cities | Research Horizons | Georgia Tech's Research News

Lets jump to the fun part from Science Daily https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/07/190729111337.htm "Unlike most of the data breaches we hear about, hacked cars have physical consequences, In simulations of hacking internet-connected cars, the researchers froze traffic in Manhattan nearly solid, and it would not even take that to wreak havoc. Here are their results, and the numbers are conservative for reasons mentioned below.

"Randomly stalling 20 percent of cars during rush hour would mean total traffic freeze" If all the climate scientists believe their climate simulations, surely they believe the traffic simulations.

This part is fun: "The researchers also did not factor in ensuing public panic nor car occupants becoming pedestrians that would further block streets or cause accidents. " :eek: Panic in the streets? Everyone walking in rush hour?

"They also stress that they are not cybersecurity experts, nor are they saying anything about the likelihood of someone carrying out such a hack." This is just a warning of what could occur. Imagine what would actually happen.

Pandoras Box? BTW, this report just appeared on FBN, about a 5 min segment with The Car Coach.

Now I'll wait for the first Trolley Fatality and ensuing chaos that will cause as it reaches the public conscious.
 
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