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Discussion Starter #1
Been thinking .....

It seems like Porsche is doing everything possible to balance the scale of the legislature and the reality . Obviously the legislature focus is emissions . The reality is they will NEVER be able to get the life out of those batteries to compete at the level of an ICE car . Porsche is all about competition . However in the wake of the VW scandal the reality is they have no choice.

Or do they ? Can they develop an alternative fuel capable of laying the EV zealotry to rest . If so .. when ?

They are surely going in the EV mode for now . Macan will likely be EV . 718 will too . Sure they might sprinkle a Gt4 in but they will not be the mass buyers . In fact who will be the mass buyers ? I can't fathom who wants an electric mid engine roadster . Even a vibrating pillow sounds more exciting.

Now I do think that EV self driving taxi cars might be a possibility for transit. I even think this might be short term . After all no place is going to built up a huge infrastructure and not use it for something . But the enthusiasts ? Most don't want an appliance car .


Maybe I am alone on this thinking .. EV .. permanent or short lived ? That's the topic .
 

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Governments have forced EV car production on the manufacturers through regulations and the manufacturers are trying to persuade the consumer to buy them. The consumer still has the choice to buy or not to buy as long as ICE cars are still available. As long as ICE cars are still available (permitted) the EV car could be one of the worst economic losses ever for car manufacturers. Convincing the consumer to buy it in numbers to replace the sales of ICE vehicles will take a huge marketing effort. My fear is that the consumer will eventually not have a choice.
 

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Of course it will be long-lived. Governments and supranational institutions such as the EU do not regulate with us car enthusiasts’ preferences in mind, and after all the enormous investments that car makers are making on electrification, they too will push to complete the transition to electric mobility.

In the meantime I’ll fully enjoy my Macan GTS and 991.2 GTS.
 

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Of course it will be long-lived. Governments and supranational institutions such as the EU do not regulate with us car enthusiasts’ preferences in mind, and after all the enormous investments that car makers are making on electrification, they too will push to complete the transition to electric mobility.

In the meantime I’ll fully enjoy my Macan GTS and 991.2 GTS.
They will go through with it. and the mass will buy into but when it sinks it can fall faster than diesel (the last sh*t sandwich that failed).

The sinking feature wont be either the government or the enthusiast . I believe it will be the product itself . They just can't get the batteries to work the way they would want . The moment a flex fuel is developed which can meet the standards and cost less than the upkeep of EV even the govt. might reexamine things.

By "short lived" I did not mean immediate . But it can't last long term.
 

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My son, who currently drives a nice C Class with some AMG accoutrements said he’d go EV when they have a thousand mile range.

I commute to the railroad station about 150 days a year, 8 miles each way. That type commute is perfect for an EV and even I, who loves ICE exhaust sound, have considered perhaps the Bolt. But at least once a week I usually find myself in Costco stocking up on toilet paper (well I am full of it), etc., and gas is so cheap there (2.69 regular, 2.89 premium, 93 octane, as of yesterday) that it doesn’t even hurt the wallet to fill my Raptor which is what I use for that short commute to the station.

EV is definitely here to stay. And unless and until you’ve driven one, don’t discount it. Basically zero service required. Fill the washer fluid and you’re done. And oodles of smooth torque. I’ve mentioned before, I drove my relative’s Tesla S. While I did not feel it to be 90k worth of quality, it was somewhat impressive.

There already are fleets of hydrogen powered buses, natural gas powered vehicles. Problem is the filling stations are so few and far between, whereas as an EV is powered right in your garage or supermarket parking lot.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
My son, who currently drives a nice C Class with some AMG accoutrements said he’d go EV when they have a thousand mile range.

I commute to the railroad station about 150 days a year, 8 miles each way. That type commute is perfect for an EV and even I, who loves ICE exhaust sound, have considered perhaps the Bolt. But at least once a week I usually find myself in Costco stocking up on toilet paper (well I am full of it), etc., and gas is so cheap there (2.69 regular, 2.89 premium, 93 octane, as of yesterday) that it doesn’t even hurt the wallet to fill my Raptor which is what I use for that short commute to the station.

EV is definitely here to stay. And unless and until you’ve driven one, don’t discount it. Basically zero service required. Fill the washer fluid and you’re done. And oodles of smooth torque. I’ve mentioned before, I drove my relative’s Tesla S. While I did not feel it to be 90k worth of quality, it was somewhat impressive.

The Tesla S had more road noise than my Boxster had . It was heavy and cumbersome . Sure it was. a technological masterpiece in its time but at 90K its was not perfect and it should be .

In fact in the EV competition Porsches arrival might shake Tesla at the same price points . I haven't shorted Tesla but I speculate it will be the stock play that I miss .

And yes for short commutes or self driving taxis then EV might work except EVERY house will have to have a charger not just for one car but for ALL cars (If EV is the route) . All of a sudden this isn't so convenient .
 

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I can’t recall noticing road noise. But I assure you it was close to twice as quick as your Boxster and it hugged the road, felt very planted.

Forget self driving taxis. It will be a long time, if ever, before you see that. It’s not even in the equation. Are you getting in a car without a Taxi with no driver? I’m not and I take cabs all the time, and most of them are nuts behind the wheel. I immediately tell them slow down, I’m in no rush, and they do.

Motorweek recently did a roundup of EVs. There are at least a dozen out there. Tesla is and will remain niche, if that. I do not see them even surviving.
 

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My son, who currently drives a nice C Class with some AMG accoutrements said he’d go EV when they have a thousand mile range.
I know that is a "H...E..double hockey sticks" freezes over statement, but what ICE vehicle gets a thousand miles on a tank?

Speaking about choice...

My wife is thinking about trading in her Jaguar XE 35t next year, and she had her eyes on a Mercedes Benz GLC43 coupe, but I had recently read an article that Mercedes is dropping the GLC "43" variants in 2020...as a matter of fact, they're not even on the Mercedes production schedule for 2020. Rumor has it Mercedes MIGHT use their new 416 hp 4 cylinder engine featured in the new A Class 45s, and then call the GLC a "53" in 2021...who knows. So it looks like your choices for the GLC in 2020 is a 300, or a 63/63s...no 43. My wife doesn't want a gas guzzling V8, so scratch the Mercedes off her list in 2020.

Then she started looking at a Jaguar F-Pace S, only to read an article that Jaguar was thinking about dropping the supercharged 380 hp 3.0L V6 engine in the XE and F-Pace next year when the new face lifts of those vehicles come out as 2021 models, and going with a 296 hp 4 banger...or the V8 in the SVR F-Pace. My wife just doesn't want to spend close to $90k on a gas guzzling V8, and she doesn't want a 4 banger.

So who knows...maybe she'll end up buying a BMW X4 M40i since she's not interested in an EV Macan (she likes my GTS though), an Audi SQ5 because they don't offer a "coupe" version, or anything else like an Alfa or a Maserati. The BMW may not be her first choice, but she feels its better than owning a 4 banger.

In any case, it looks like there will be interesting times ahead for the automobile industry in the very near future...especially for the European models.
 

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Automakers make poor decisions all the time, they go in a direction driven by regulations and not the consumer/market.

Without getting too political, people buy high HP Sports cars and gas guzzling SUV's because they want them, the car makers make big profits off them.

EV is hardly popular or mainstream, I just purchased a gas guzzling 650HP Z06 Corvette, I voted with my wallet, and it makes little difference to me how much fuel costs, EV is not ever in my future, unless they force it down my throat with a funnel.

EV are 100% disposable vehicles with the absolute worst depreciation, battery tech is 20 years behind what we need and so is EV Charging, grids cannot keep up with normal demand on high usage days, so 50 million people charging an EV is going to work how ??

Add in the long charge times, people have little patience for that, and if Porsche goes all EV that is their bed, they can lie in it, sales will plummet and Porsche will go broke in short order and probably cease to exist as a company as it is now.

Consumers drive sales, not governments, if there are ICE Choices and people want them, brand or not they are going to another brand, its a foolish move IMHO.

Glad to see someone else thinks its stupid to go that route, pay the fine, don't do it again, and keep making progress on ICE Vehicles.

Hopefully someone in Porsche reads these threads and realizes how utterly asinine it is to go all EV when its not even mainstream yet !!
 

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It seems like Porsche is doing everything possible to balance the scale of the legislature and the reality
We all know that Porsche is just one brand under VAG. It’s the VAG corporate umbrella that matters, not Porsche. VAG is about to be hit with massive fines. Two recent articles:

VW Group, FCA risk big EU emissions fines in 2021, study shows
Europe car groups face huge profit hit to cut CO2

If they don't react to the fines, they stand a chance of going out of business.

Obviously the legislature focus is emissions .
Focusing on emissions is part of the solution. Its not the problem. The problem is published on the EU website. The countries in Europe are dependent upon foreign powers for their energy. Cut off the supply and they freeze to death and then die. Watch the video on that website. They are telling you the plan. The know what's going to happen.

EVs are part of the strategy to reduce foreign dependence on energy. Fines are part of the strategy to enforce the EV solution. The end game is to not be dependent on Russia. They have run the scenarios. Read https://ec.europa.eu/energy/sites/ener/files/documents/IP-14-1162_EN.pdf They know exactly what will happen.

Don't look at this from the POV of an auto enthusiasts. Look at it from the POV of Europeans. They have gone through two World Wars where the landscape was ravaged, the cities destroyed and tens of millions killed. You don't think that can happen again? How long did it take Europe to rebuild after WWII? When did rationing stop in England? Porsche is a bit player in this, one brand of many. They will do what they need to do for VAG, Germany, and Europe to survive.

who will be the mass buyers ?
Europeans, any maybe some Chinese. Whether or not Americans will buy European EVs, in mass numbers, remains to be seen. Whether or not VAG, BMW, or MB remain in the US market selling solely EVs remains to be seen. Maybe they will build two lines, one ICE, one EV, maybe not. Maybe they will go out of business. Maybe they will have a booming business.

Maybe I am alone on this thinking .. EV .. permanent or short lived ? That's the topic .
For Europe? Its not going anywhere. Don't think about this in terms of "climate change". Thats an automatic loser position. Think of it in terms of energy. Europe has always, AFAIK, had tiny cars, tiny engines, gas prices always far greater than the US, cramped, tiny cities, etc. While the US has a vast land, thousands of miles, big cars, big SUVs, big pickups, big engines, etc. Think of it in terms of energy. They depend upon others.

The US is energy independent. No one gives that up that independence to become dependent on other countries. Just think about WHY the EU is doing this. Then realize we HAVE energy independence. We have what they want. Who is going to give that up to depend upon others to get other natural resources like Cobalt and the RLE? That is exactly what Europe is trying to avoid!

If the question is are their other alternative fuels sure there is. Toyota has Hydrogen cars. Problem is Hydrogen tends to blow up, like gasoline, and burn like Lithium https://qz.com/1641276/a-hydrogen-fueling-station-explodes-in-norways-baerum/

I think you're looking at this like an auto enthusiast. Try looking at this from the POV of those in positions of power in Europe. What would you do? Just hope there will never be another war?

Ever notice Japan isn't so concerned? Why not? They ARE dependent upon foreign countries for oil. I wonder why they don't see concerned. Hmm. What did they do when they needed oil? Oh yeah, they attacked Pearl Harbor so they were free to take the oil fields in south east asia.
 

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Hopefully someone in Porsche reads these threads and realizes how utterly asinine it is to go all EV when its not even mainstream yet !!
IMO, Thats not going to happen. This is not business as usual. This is about survival. Read the EU Energy websites. This is about what happens when their gas and oil gets cutoff. They die. Porsche, VAG, and BMW and MB, will do what they must to survive in their countries or they will go out of business because of the fines. Their countries will do what they need to do to survive another war, and if building EVs is part of that solutions, then they will build them.

Europe knows what it means to have their cities destroyed and millions dead. The US does not, well other than the Civil War. I can see their POV.
 

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IMO, Thats not going to happen. This is not business as usual. This is about survival. Read the EU Energy websites. This is about what happens when their gas and oil gets cutoff. They die. Porsche, VAG, and BMW and MB, will do what they must to survive in their countries or they will go out of business because of the fines. Their countries will do what they need to do to survive another war, and if building EVs is part of that solutions, then they will build them.

Europe knows what it means to have their cities destroyed and millions dead. The US does not, well other than the Civil War. I can see their POV.

Try charging your EV up after an EMP..............;)
 

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By then it's too late for just about everyone on the planet...

I got an old school 1968 Malibu, runs off nothing with a computer or chipset.

LOL.........>:D
 

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Try driving your EV in New Orleans during a large tropical storm which happens too often. If your have an ICE vehicle you may luck out with only drying out the carpets and interior. With an EV say goodbye to your battery pack and electric components. The car is probably totaled.
 

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I got an old school 1968 Malibu, runs off nothing with a computer or chipset.

LOL.........>:D
I always wondered if older cars would survive an EMP blast since they still have coils, spark plugs, wires, starter motors, and alternators...
 

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Try charging your EV up after an EMP..............;)
Not going to be an EMP. No nukes. That would be a death sentence for the world. No way there would not be massive retaliation. Just cut the gas and oil lines. Economic security is national security. Cut off trade. Good bye EU. Even worse, if they actually succeeded in getting all their energy needs from Batteries, it becomes MUCH simpler. I don't know what they are thinking. You just cut the supply lines from the Congo and China. Good bye. No one needs die in actual fighting. Think surrounding the Castle and starve them out. Old school Medieval Castle Warfare. You wait them out.

Of course this assumes the US doesn't bail them out - again. Thats another reason why anyone thinking the US will become dependent upon a foreign power when it does not need to is probably way off in thinking. Nobody gives up independence for dependence. EU is just giving up dependence on one thing for another. That's the part I don't get. So they don't depend upon Russia for gas or the Middle East for oil. They depend upon the Congo for Cobalt and China for REE. How does that make sense? They are MUCH farther away.

I always wondered if older cars would survive an EMP blast since they still have coils, spark plugs, wires, starter motors, and alternators...
Didn't you see Tom Cruise War of the World? If Hollywood says its true, it must be true :)
 

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imho EV is an economically and environmentally disastrous dead end technology. Will be a very short lived phenomenon. The future for cars belongs to "liquid organic hydrogen carriers" (LOHC). Super convenient. Almost the same principle as gasoline. Get a tank full of "charged" LOHC. When near empty go to the nearest LOHC station, pump (and recycle) depleted liquid and refill. Easy. Why this is not the horse Europe is betting its Trillions on - I have no idea???
Quick two minute clip on LOHC. Many companies are working on it worldwide.
 

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imho EV is an economically and environmentally desaterous dead end technology. Will be a very short lived phenomenon. The future for cars belongs to "liquid organic hydrogen carriers" (LOHC). Super convenient. Almost the same principle as gasoline. Get a tank full of "charged" LOHC. When near empty go to the nearest LOHC station, pump (and recycle) depleted liquid and refill. Easy. Why this is not the horse Europe is betting its Trillions on - I have no idea???
Quick two minute clip on LOHC. Many companies are working on it worldwide.
https://youtu.be/fup_Sp3Ks_M
For mass acceptance over ICE, I would place my bets on a breakthrough in some technology other than an electric vehicle powered from batteries. Maybe LOHC or something else we haven't heard of yet. Or another way to store or produce electricity for an EV.
 
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