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here‘s a CPO report from my car - this is the official statement fro Porsche regarding CPO and accident damage. View attachment 229326

i would think the OP could claim “ sub-par repair “
In the interim I went back and looked at the CPO inspection report that came with my car.

Never noticed this before, but interestingly there’s no place for the inspector to note exactly what and how much evidence of prior damage was found. So if the car passed, you theoretically know the car did not exceed the limits noted above, but the details regarding what the inspector found are not noted.

So my question to the PCNA social media people who I know monitor this website is why. Seems to me that PCNA is complicit in trying to hide that there was previous body repair/painting by not forcing the inspector to detail his/her findings.

I recall a while back there was a forum member who had the oil service due light come on when he took delivery on the car, a strong indication the dealer never actually did the CPO inspection at all. So when I bought mine I assumed there had been no inspection, but was interested in the excellent CPO warranty.

Seems to me you need to assume that piece of paper saying the car was inspected Is worthless.
 

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With the extent of the damages ($9,000.00), you now face diminished value issues. You paid X for the Macan. Subtract $9,000 from X. THAT is the current value of your Macan. You're in the hole big time. Get a lawyer. Ask him/her if you should stop making payments or not. I believe they have you keep making them so they can't come back at you while this is being sorted out.

You will need to sue to have the velicle repaired and recoup your diminished value. GL
 

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With the extent of the damages ($9,000.00), you now face diminished value issues. You paid X for the Macan. Subtract $9,000 from X. THAT is the current value of your Macan. You're in the hole big time. Get a lawyer. Ask him/her if you should stop making payments or not. I believe they have you keep making them so they can't come back at you while this is being sorted out.

You will need to sue to have the velicle repaired and recoup your diminished value. GL
You also have another issue with diminished value because almost inevitably the Carfax for your car going forward is going to show the body repairs that now need to be done, whereas right now you said the Carfax is clean.

Wonder what the story is behind the prior repairs not showing up on Carfax. If the accident was reported to a DMV, pursuant to Carfax's guarantee, you would have a claim against Carfax. But if it was not reported, the situation is outside Carfax's guarantee ( (which points out the big flaw with Carfax).

Wonder if in Texas if a dealer knows a car was in an accident they are required to inform you. I am under the impression that at least some states have that requirement. Given that you mention PNH is talking to the body shop they did the repairs, it does sound like they were well aware of it.

Fairly certain any attorney is going to advise you not to stop making payments as the legal entity that gave you the car loan (if you have one) will say they have nothing to do with the situation, and would be taking a risk of hurting you credit. But if your loan is from PFS, I could definitely see a savvy attorney making the argument that PNH, PCNA, and PFS, where are all in cahoots in perpetrating this fraud.

I don't agree you are necessarily going to need to sue here. Once PNH sees that you have retained legal counsel, hopefully this will be immediately resolved. And perhaps when they hear they are getting a lot of bad publicity over the matter in the Porsche community, even a legal letter will not be needed.

Would love to hear PNH explain why they have proceeded with this matter as they have. Seems to me they owe the Houston Porsche community an explanation, or perhaps there is more to this story.
 

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For those of you thinking you would never buy a used Macan because of stories like this, buying new is no guarantee of not being faced with a similar situation.

Brand new cars are regularly damaged in transit between the factory and the dealer. See noradinc.com for info on the vehicle processing facility VAG uses for cars being delivered to Porsche dealers in the Northeast.

I know someone who used to work there. They have a state of the art body shop because more cars than you would think come off the ships in damaged condition. The vast majority of the time the damage is limited to minor scrapes and dents, and often all that is required is repainting. but that’s not always the case.

And if you think the dealers are told about the damage to the cars they are receiving or that this info appears on CARFAX, you would be wrong. Almost all the time the dealers and eventual owners have no awareness of the damage, and what they don’t know will not hurt them, but there have been exceptions.
 

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While I feel badly for the OP and certainly wouldn't want to face the same or similar situation, my reaction if this had happened to me (and I almost never buy used vehicles, in fact of the 40+ vehicles I've owned, I've owned exactly 2 that were not new, my first which cost $800, and a Toyota Previa van when I had 3 small kids and an even smaller bank balance in the early '90s) would be to immediately trade it in elsewhere, not start a thread about it, not announce it anywhere, to anyone, just dump it. And if it cost me five or six or seven grand, so be it. And I'd move on.

We all know Larry here was rear-ended and promptly traded it in. He didn't want it.

My second Macan had a weird sensation that I attributed to the brake hold feature sticking. I was immediately done with it. Traded it for a 3rd Macan.

Life's short. It's much more important to be happy and not let things like this drag you down. Cut your losses and get another vehicle.
 

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While I feel badly for the OP and certainly wouldn't want to face the same or similar situation, my reaction if this had happened to me (and I almost never buy used vehicles, in fact of the 40+ vehicles I've owned, I've owned exactly 2 that were not new, my first which cost $800, and a Toyota Previa van when I had 3 small kids and an even smaller bank balance in the early '90s) would be to immediately trade it in elsewhere, not start a thread about it, not announce it anywhere, to anyone, just dump it. And if it cost me five or six or seven grand, so be it. And I'd move on.

We all know Larry here was rear-ended and promptly traded it in. He didn't want it.

My second Macan had a weird sensation that I attributed to the brake hold feature sticking. I was immediately done with it. Traded it for a 3rd Macan.

Life's short. It's much more important to be happy and not let things like this drag you down. Cut your losses and get another vehicle.
And let these dirtbags get away with this? No way! Walking away from this merely encourages them to pull this on the next customer.
 

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And let these dirtbags get away with this? No way! Walking away from this merely encourages them to pull this on the next customer.
Depends how you want to spend your energy. I can understand both sides. Some people would rather not spend their time being angry in a fight - after all, the point of getting a Porsche is to feel good. Others may get satisfaction trying to right a wrong - however, over time I've learned to pick my battles because there's just too many wrongs that can occupy one's day. I'm not necessarily saying I would walk away in this situation - depends how I feel. Life's short - do what makes you happy.
 

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There is a huge difference between cosmetic damage that was repaired on a brand new car than a car that has probably been on an accident. Both sucks but the case of the OP is really bad. I would be pissed. On the other hand, I bought a Mercedes CPO for my wife. Someone took a $38k loss for driving the brand new car for 17k miles (that is how much less than MSRP I paid for a 2 year old car. I did a thorough inspection and bought it. So far so good but agree it is a big gamble. I wonder if the OP in possession of a clean CarFax report and the CPO report saying the car was in perfect condition is not enough to sue the dealer. How about the previous owner? Did he/she need to disclose the damage when selling the car?


For those of you thinking you would never buy a used Macan because of stories like this, buying new is no guarantee of not being faced with a similar situation.

Brand new cars are regularly damaged in transit between the factory and the dealer. See noradinc.com for info on the vehicle processing facility VAG uses for cars being delivered to Porsche dealers in the Northeast.

I know someone who used to work there. They have a state of the art body shop because more cars than you would think come off the ships in damaged condition. The vast majority of the time the damage is limited to minor scrapes and dents, and often all that is required is repainting. but that’s not always the case.

And if you think the dealers are told about the damage to the cars they are receiving or that this info appears on CARFAX, you would be wrong. Almost all the time the dealers and eventual owners have no awareness of the damage, and what they don’t know will not hurt them, but there have been exceptions.
 

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There is a huge difference between cosmetic damage that was repaired on a brand new car than a car that has probably been on an accident. Both sucks but the case of the OP is really bad. I would be pissed. On the other hand, I bought a Mercedes CPO for my wife. Someone took a $38k loss for driving the brand new car for 17k miles (that is how much less than MSRP I paid for a 2 year old car. I did a thorough inspection and bought it. So far so good but agree it is a big gamble. I wonder if the OP in possession of a clean CarFax report and the CPO report saying the car was in perfect condition is not enough to sue the dealer. How about the previous owner? Did he/she need to disclose the damage when selling the car?
Private owners are under no obligation to disclose anything.

A dealer would need to disclose an accident which appears on CarFax, but if the car's paintwork appears to be in good condition and no other issues are found then they have no reason to ask any further questions. Of course most buyers have little concern if a bumper or fender has been repainted, and discerning buyers need to do their own due diligence.

We still don't know when the OP actually bought the car. He registered for the forum 9 months ago, but says he has only been working to resolve the issue for the past 2 months. Was this an issue 9 months ago? Not saying his claim is any less valid, but it's going to be much more of a challenge if the car was purchased 9 months ago.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Private owners are under no obligation to disclose anything.

A dealer would need to disclose an accident which appears on CarFax, but if the car's paintwork appears to be in good condition and no other issues are found then they have no reason to ask any further questions. Of course most buyers have little concern if a bumper or fender has been repainted, and discerning buyers need to do their own due diligence.

We still don't know when the OP actually bought the car. He registered for the forum 9 months ago, but says he has only been working to resolve the issue for the past 2 months. Was this an issue 9 months ago? Not saying his claim is any less valid, but it's going to be much more of a challenge if the car was purchased 9 months ago.
The issue came to light the day I received my car in Los Angeles in May as the lane change assist was not working. I called my regular customer service manager at Beverly Hills Porsche and he gave me a time to bring the car in. I took the car in and while taking pictures of the car, the first thing he asked me was if I knew the rear bumper had been repainted. I told him that there has been no work done on the car and he pointed to some peeling and twisting of paint at the corner where the bumper meets the body. It was very tiny and I did not even notice it when I got the car. I asked him if this is a manufacturing defect as the PNH sales guys had told me the car has never been repaired. He said it cannot be a manufacturing defect. Anyways, I was about to head to Europe for summer so I asked him to just fix the sensors and call PNH to get the full story on the bumper. He reset the sensors and I picked up the car the next day. But when I started driving, the lane change warning came "ON" again. I called BHP again and he said that this time I will have to leave the car for a longer period as he will have to replace the sensors and that required removal of bumper. I told him I'll get it done when I get back from Europe after summer. I was eventually able to drop the car in November because of my work travel. When I finally dropped the car and they removed the bumper to replace sensors, all the damage came to light. Thats when I called PNH and ultimately PCNA customer service.
 

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The issue came to light the day I received my car in Los Angeles in May as the lane change assist was not working. I called my regular customer service manager at Beverly Hills Porsche and he gave me a time to bring the car in. I took the car in and while taking pictures of the car, the first thing he asked me was if I knew the rear bumper had been repainted. I told him that there has been no work done on the car and he pointed to some peeling and twisting of paint at the corner where the bumper meets the body. It was very tiny and I did not even notice it when I got the car. I asked him if this is a manufacturing defect as the PNH sales guys had told me the car has never been repaired. He said it cannot be a manufacturing defect. Anyways, I was about to head to Europe for summer so I asked him to just fix the sensors and call PNH to get the full story on the bumper. He reset the sensors and I picked up the car the next day. But when I started driving, the lane change warning came "ON" again. I called BHP again and he said that this time I will have to leave the car for a longer period as he will have to replace the sensors and that required removal of bumper. I told him I'll get it done when I get back from Europe after summer. I was eventually able to drop the car in November because of my work travel. When I finally dropped the car and they removed the bumper to replace sensors, all the damage came to light. Thats when I called PNH and ultimately PCNA customer service.
That makes sense.

Do you know if BHP actually reached out to PNH in May, like you asked them to? Did PNH have any idea there was a problem before you dropped the car off at BHP 2 months ago?

As you can imagine, owning a car for ~7 months and then coming back to the selling dealer with a claim like this is going to present a real challenge. Hopefully you can find a reasonable resolution with them.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
That makes sense.

Do you know if BHP actually reached out to PNH in May, like you asked them to? Did PNH have any idea there was a problem before you dropped the car off at BHP 2 months ago?

As you can imagine, owning a car for ~7 months and then coming back to the selling dealer with a claim like this is going to present a real challenge. Hopefully you can find a reasonable resolution with them.
Yes BHP reached out to PNH but never got a straight answer and I never followed up from Europe. Honestly the issue with bumper paint did not bother me as a bumper could be painted for scratches etc. But when BHP found out the extent of damage after removing the bumper, it became clear to me why the bumper was painted. Also, we have been asking the original body shop to send the details of the repair will all the paperwork and pictures and all BHP has gotten is ONE picture. I'm no expert but even I know a porsche certified body shop takes more than one picture of the job and has to do adequate paperwork.
 

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Yes BHP reached out to PNH but never got a straight answer and I never followed up from Europe. Honestly the issue with bumper paint did not bother me as a bumper could be painted for scratches etc. But when BHP found out the extent of damage after removing the bumper, it became clear to me why the bumper was painted. Also, we have been asking the original body shop to send the details of the repair will all the paperwork and pictures and all BHP has gotten is ONE picture. I'm no expert but even I know a porsche certified body shop takes more than one picture of the job and has to do adequate paperwork.
During the CPO process PNH probably reset the sensors (like BHP did) which got them working temporarily. This was enough to pass CPO, and as far as PNH was concerned everything was fine. Maybe they noticed the bumper paint, maybe not...but since Porsche's CPO allows for 1-2 panels to be repainted it was not an issue.

It's unlikely they were aware of the underlying issues, but probably should be ultimately responsible for hidden damage like this.

I think you're in a tough spot, and there are complications since the sale was so long ago. You may run into challenges proving the damage was existing, and not something that occurred within the last 9 months.

At this point unless you want to pay out of pocket you probably want to contact a lawyer for a better opinion...maybe they can light a fire under PNH. If the car was purchased from by PNH from PCNA, then PNH may have a claim against them...but that's their issue to sort out.
 

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There is a huge difference between cosmetic damage that was repaired on a brand new car than a car that has probably been on an accident.
Not sure why you think damage to new cars in transit from the factory to the dealer is limited to cosmetic damage.

At Norad (mentioned in my earlier post) they have a computerized frame rack. It’s actually very cool and gets used pretty much every week.

Have you ever been on a RORO cargo ship while they are loading or unloading? Accidents happen more often than you might think. There are huge time pressures and the longshoreman are not exactly known for being careful. They have tremendous job security. They love taking out the occasional 911 Turbo S for an acceleration test.
 

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As you can imagine, owning a car for ~7 months and then coming back to the selling dealer with a claim like this is going to present a real challenge.
Strongly disagree. While one never knows what will happen in court, there is ample evidence to convince a judge what really happened here. It is just too circumstantial.

Judges tend to side with Plaintiff on consumer fraud situations like this, and PCH’s legal counsel will be well aware of that.

Bet you one legal letter will change PCH’s attitude on this, and they will step up and do what they should’ve long ago. They don’t want their name dragged through the mud on this any further.
 

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Strongly disagree. While one never knows what will happen in court, there is ample evidence to convince a judge what really happened here. It is just too circumstantial.

Judges tend to side with Plaintiff on consumer fraud situations like this, and PCH’s legal counsel will be well aware of that.

Bet you one legal letter will change PCH’s attitude on this, and they will step up and do what they should’ve long ago. They don’t want their name dragged through the mud on this any further.
I never said court...and this would never make it that far because the dealer knows they will lose.

Waiting 7 months to report an issue is inherently going to be more challenging than reporting the issue within a week or two of delivery. Information gets lost. People misremember things. Someone at the dealer is probably questioning whether the buyer caused the damage themselves, etc...

As I mentioned, a lawyer is probably the way to go...it at least shows them you are serious and are not going away.

PS - Fraud requires intent, which I doubt is present in this case.
 

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I never said court...and this would never make it that far because the dealer knows they will lose.
Bingo!
PNH just needs a little bit of legal prodding to do the right thing here.
 

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Not sure why you think damage to new cars in transit from the factory to the dealer is limited to cosmetic damage.

At Norad (mentioned in my earlier post) they have a computerized frame rack. It’s actually very cool and gets used pretty much every week.

Have you ever been on a RORO cargo ship while they are loading or unloading? Accidents happen more often than you might think. There are huge time pressures and the longshoreman are not exactly known for being careful. They have tremendous job security. They love taking out the occasional 911 Turbo S for an acceleration test.
You said "The vast majority of the time the damage is limited to minor scrapes and dents" so I assume that is "OK". Not good, but OK. I had several cars that had small dents fixed without needing to repaint and you cannot tell it where that happened. Those are not reported to CarFax. Now, if you are telling me that Porsche or other car manufacturers will sell a "heavily damaged during transit" car as new and not tell the buyer about it than it is a much bigger problem. I would be amazed and really concerned if you can show that for example someone bought a brand spanking new $200k+ Porsche 911 that had a hood replaced and repainted after it arrived in the US but was delivered to the dealer as new and sold to a customer. That is a different story.
 

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You said "The vast majority of the time the damage is limited to minor scrapes and dents" so I assume that is "OK". Not good, but OK. I had several cars that had small dents fixed without needing to repaint and you cannot tell it where that happened. Those are not reported to CarFax. Now, if you are telling me that Porsche or other car manufacturers will sell a "heavily damaged during transit" car as new and not tell the buyer about it than it is a much bigger problem. I would be amazed and really concerned if you can show that for example someone bought a brand spanking new $200k+ Porsche 911 that had a hood replaced and repainted after it arrived in the US but was delivered to the dealer as new and sold to a customer. That is a different story.
Depends on the state, but if it's under 5% of MSRP there is generally no need to disclose.

So yeah, your new $200k 911 may have a repainted hood and bumper and they don't have to tell you (the dealer may not even know).
 
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