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Discussion Starter #621
@Ge0 I think you win the prize for the longest, most involved thread in any pcar forum for non-performance related items, world wide. You'd get the Oscar. 🏆
Huh... And I was just getting started :). Seriously, I appreciate it when someone takes the time to step through a vehicle mod. I'm just giving back. In somewhat great detail. Maybe I will inspire other audio nuts like Santirx to pull their perfectly good Porsche's apart (y).

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Hey @Ge0... a question.

In an earlier post you stated that your differential surround fill is set at 300Hz with 24dB/Octave LR High Pass and 12dB/Octave LR Low Pass.

Is that how you really set it up? A single point at 300Hz?

Just curious, and I’m also curious to hear what is the effect you are getting by setting it up this way.

The reason I ask is because I originally set it up at 300Hz like you stated, but couldn’t hear anything coming out of them unless I bump the gain well above other speakers. I had been playing with some different frequency ranges after that, but have not landed in the right approach.

Looking for your thoughts.


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Discussion Starter #623
Hey @Ge0... a question.

In an earlier post you stated that your differential surround fill is set at 300Hz with 24dB/Octave LR High Pass and 12dB/Octave LR Low Pass.

Is that how you really set it up? A single point at 300Hz?

Just curious, and I’m also curious to hear what is the effect you are getting by setting it up this way.

The reason I ask is because I originally set it up at 300Hz like you stated, but couldn’t hear anything coming out of them unless I bump the gain well above other speakers. I had been playing with some different frequency ranges after that, but have not landed in the right approach.

Looking for your thoughts.


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First of all you need to understand the differences between conventional rear fill and differential rear fill to determine if it is something you even want to try.

Conventional rear fill (with the same type of processing you do on the front speakers) makes you feel like you are sitting in the center of the musicians on stage. There will be a whirl wind of sound / music coming from all around you. A lot of folks like this for its novelty effect.

Differential rear fill is a psychoacoutic effect that tricks your mind into thinking you are sitting behind a stage of live performers in front of you. Each performer (sound or instrument) will have its own defined place in space. It also adds a sense of spaciousness. Like you are in a room larger than your car. But, at all times music is focused from in front of you.

Try both and see what you like.

You must have a DSP to implement differential rear fill. The DSP must be able to:

1.) Create a signal from your inputs which is either L-R (left channel plus inverted right channel) or R-L (right channel plus inverted left channel). Both do the same thing, cancel the information which is common between both speakers. This removes centered vocals or any other content (like lead guitar).

2.) Delay the signal going to the rear speakers by 20mS to 30mS

3.) Remove bass frequencies and gently roll off higher frequencies.

But you ask, why do we need 1,2, and 3? Well you're in luck. I'm about to tell you. What you are trying to artificially replicate is sound waves of music passing by you, traveling to some back wall, and then bouncing back towards you so you hear it again. This is called a reverberation. The amount of reverberation and its timing help set the size of the room.

Number 1 is needed to extract out stereo cues that may confuse the hollographic image of the front stage. If you listen to the L-R signal alone you will hear some content of the music. But, it will be more diffuse information just used to create an ambience.

Number 2 is needed to set the size of the listening space. Sounds that reflect back at you in under 20mS are filtered out by your brain . You don't hear them. Sounds that reflect back at you within the 20mS to 30mS window are sensed as a reverberation. This is the sweet spot for differential rear fill. You can litterally sit in your vehicle and adjust this timing and sense the sound stage growing larger and larger as you increase time. However, after 30mS your brain starts to sense echos. This is not a good thing. Remember all of those cheesy old home theater sound effects like stadium or cathedral?

Number 3 is needed to artificially roll off sound intensity as it would through free air. Higher frequencies tend to attenuate quicker since they are lower energy. Low frequencies do not attenuate much at all. But, we want to eliminate them from rear fill so they do not interfere (constructive or destructive) with bass frequencies in the front.
That is why I band-passed my rear fill. High-pass at 300Hz with a steep slope of 24dB/octave to quickly filter out bass frequencies that could interfere with the front. The high frequencies are low-passed using a gentle slope of 12dB/octave to mimic natural amplitude roll off. You could also set this to 6dB/octave and see how it sounds.

Now, back to your question(s):

I don't understand your question "Is that how you really set it up? A single point at 300Hz?"

I do understand why you say you can't hear the rear fill very much without boosting the gain a bunch. You're not really supposed to hear it. Your supposed to hear the affect it has on the frontal stage once set up properly. Your frontal stage will widen and deepen. You'll feel like you're listening to music in a club or small venue vs. the tiny confines of your car. You won't notice this at all without the ever so important time delay.

One real bummer I found out about my Helix DSP amp is that I can only set my time delay to a max of 22mS. Other high end Helix processors (like the DSP Ultra) let you delay by as much as 35mS. So, I am limited to how much effect I can add.

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First of all you need to understand the differences between conventional rear fill and differential rear fill to determine if it is something you even want to try.

Conventional rear fill (with the same type of processing you do on the front speakers) makes you feel like you are sitting in the center of the musicians on stage. There will be a whirl wind of sound / music coming from all around you. A lot of folks like this for its novelty effect.

Differential rear fill is a psychoacoutic effect that tricks your mind into thinking you are sitting behind a stage of live performers in front of you. Each performer (sound or instrument) will have its own defined place in space. It also adds a sense of spaciousness. Like you are in a room larger than your car. But, at all times music is focused from in front of you.

Try both and see what you like.

You must have a DSP to implement differential rear fill. The DSP must be able to:

1.) Create a signal from your inputs which is either L-R (left channel plus inverted right channel) or R-L (right channel plus inverted left channel). Both do the same thing, cancel the information which is common between both speakers. This removes centered vocals or any other content (like lead guitar).

2.) Delay the signal going to the rear speakers by 20mS to 30mS

3.) Remove bass frequencies and gently roll off higher frequencies.

But you ask, why do we need 1,2, and 3? Well you're in luck. I'm about to tell you. What you are trying to artificially replicate is sound waves of music passing by you, traveling to some back wall, and then bouncing back towards you so you hear it again. This is called a reverberation. The amount of reverberation and its timing help set the size of the room.

Number 1 is needed to extract out stereo cues that may confuse the hollographic image of the front stage. If you listen to the L-R signal alone you will hear some content of the music. But, it will be more diffuse information just used to create an ambience.

Number 2 is needed to set the size of the listening space. Sounds that reflect back at you in under 20mS are filtered out by your brain . You don't hear them. Sounds that reflect back at you within the 20mS to 30mS window are sensed as a reverberation. This is the sweet spot for differential rear fill. You can litterally sit in your vehicle and adjust this timing and sense the sound stage growing larger and larger as you increase time. However, after 30mS your brain starts to sense echos. This is not a good thing. Remember all of those cheesy old home theater sound effects like stadium or cathedral?

Number 3 is needed to artificially roll off sound intensity as it would through free air. Higher frequencies tend to attenuate quicker since they are lower energy. Low frequencies do not attenuate much at all. But, we want to eliminate them from rear fill so they do not interfere (constructive or destructive) with bass frequencies in the front.
That is why I band-passed my rear fill. High-pass at 300Hz with a steep slope of 24dB/octave to quickly filter out bass frequencies that could interfere with the front. The high frequencies are low-passed using a gentle slope of 12dB/octave to mimic natural amplitude roll off. You could also set this to 6dB/octave and see how it sounds.

Now, back to your question(s):

I don't understand your question "Is that how you really set it up? A single point at 300Hz?"

I do understand why you say you can't hear the rear fill very much without boosting the gain a bunch. You're not really supposed to hear it. Your supposed to hear the affect it has on the frontal stage once set up properly. Your frontal stage will widen and deepen. You'll feel like you're listening to music in a club or small venue vs. the tiny confines of your car. You won't notice this at all without the ever so important time delay.

One real bummer I found out about my Helix DSP amp is that I can only set my time delay to a max of 22mS. Other high end Helix processors (like the DSP Ultra) let you delay by as much as 35mS. So, I am limited to how much effect I can add.

Ge0
Thanks for the detailed answer. This certainly helps.

I’m not sure then if differential fill is what I need, given that I have the rear doors setup with the 6.5 woofers and the 2” full range.

Maybe I can turn off the rear doors and test the differential fill with the instructions you provided and see how I like it.

I was originally looking for that center stage approach.

Again, thanks.

I’m sure your explanation will be useful for others as well.


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Discussion Starter #625
Thanks for the detailed answer. This certainly helps.

I’m not sure then if differential fill is what I need, given that I have the rear doors setup with the 6.5 woofers and the 2” full range.

Maybe I can turn off the rear doors and test the differential fill with the instructions you provided and see how I like it.

I was originally looking for that center stage approach.

Again, thanks.

I’m sure your explanation will be useful for others as well.


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Do you still have the D-pillar speakers mounted? If so, you could mute rear doors and use the D-pillars for differential rear fill like I do.

Also, I'm assuming your DSP has a number of presets (mine has 10). You could always have both. Just switch between presets. Differential rear fill is awesome for live music.

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Do you still have the D-pillar speakers mounted? If so, you could mute rear doors and use the D-pillars for differential rear fill like I do.

Also, I'm assuming your DSP has a number of presets (mine has 10). You could always have both. Just switch between presets. Differential rear fill is awesome for live music.

Ge0
Yes, I have the D-pillar speakers mounted.

I have 8 presets in the Audison that you can set with a dial (only one programmable), but that is not what you are saying. For that programmable preset, I have 2 memories to set two different setting...

Oh... and I can only set a maximum of 15ms delay... which of course I can’t just input with numbers, but have to increase with up/down arrows which would only increase the value about 0.03ms at a time. I developed artritis hitting the darn mouse to get all the way to 15ms. Who the heck designed this software?

I know, I know... you tried to get me to go to Helix... I should’ve listened to you...

I can’t save the muted speakers in a specific memory, but what I did is, I lowered the rear speaker volume completely in memory B... I setup the D-pillar speakers as differential fill like you set it up. I have to say that it was very, very interesting. I liked it!

I went to memory A and set d-pillar speakers similarly and reduce gain on rear doors, increase the bass a little and decrease the full range a little. It filled the rear a little bit more. I also liked it.

I need to keep playing with these settings and land on a final one, but I will leave memory B as is, with your settings.

The issue with the Audison is that there is no easy way to switch memories unless I purchase a control for it.

I’ll probably set it up with the memory I like the most and leave it there.


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Discussion Starter #627
Yes, I have the D-pillar speakers mounted.

I have 8 presets in the Audison that you can set with a dial (only one programmable), but that is not what you are saying. For that programmable preset, I have 2 memories to set two different setting...

Oh... and I can only set a maximum of 15ms delay... which of course I can’t just input with numbers, but have to increase with up/down arrows which would only increase the value about 0.03ms at a time. I developed artritis hitting the darn mouse to get all the way to 15ms. Who the heck designed this software?

I know, I know... you tried to get me to go to Helix... I should’ve listened to you...

I can’t save the muted speakers in a specific memory, but what I did is, I lowered the rear speaker volume completely in memory B... I setup the D-pillar speakers as differential fill like you set it up. I have to say that it was very, very interesting. I liked it!

I went to memory A and set d-pillar speakers similarly and reduce gain on rear doors, increase the bass a little and decrease the full range a little. It filled the rear a little bit more. I also liked it.

I need to keep playing with these settings and land on a final one, but I will leave memory B as is, with your settings.

The issue with the Audison is that there is no easy way to switch memories unless I purchase a control for it.

I’ll probably set it up with the memory I like the most and leave it there.


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Sorry for making assumptions. I have ten memory presets I can select between using a phone app. If I want to set a different tune I just press a button.

Please continue to play with differential rear fill. It's just software and can be manipulated. If you don't like it you can wipe it and load another preset. That's the beauty of these things.

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Discussion Starter #629
OK. Where did I leave off? Oh yeah. Shrinking my amp board and remounting it.


I have a little empty space left now.



Mark the cut line at the edge of the amp



Pull off the mounting hardware so I can make the cut



There ya go



The amp was still wired into the car. Just need to screw it to the board.



Done...



The amp now sits below the battery cavity line. Now on to making my enclosure...

Ge0
 

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Discussion Starter #630
So, I have this cardboard mock-up of what size sub enclosure will fit in my car. But, what do I do with it? I can't fiberglass over it. It would be too weak and floppy. Hmmm... I have an idea...




A thick MDF baffle



What is he doing with this???



A perfect day. Cold beer and fresh Baltic Birch


Whats this shenanigans?







Building a box inside a box???



Started raining and got dark. Move operations inside.


Phase 1 complete.


To be continued...

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Discussion Starter #631
Day 2


Glue in re-enforcements in corners



Plan out the top baffle





Cut cut cut







I need to trace this outline but did not have any tracing paper





Transfer outline to next shape.



Cut the next stack in the baffle



To be continued...

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Discussion Starter #632
Day 2.5


Oh boy! I fits like a glove in my subfloor



Finish up the stack






Now attach the top baffle. More rain and lost daylight. Move operations indoors again







After all this work the [email protected] subwoofer better fit...



WOW! I could have went with a deeper 10" sub. But, I'm happy with my SD4 for now.



Refueled. Time for sanding.



All done sanding. Now what???


To be continued...

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Trouble with this topic is, it sucks you in! Having completed the Phase One part - speaker upgrade, the next phase of replacing and upgrading the amp flows on from the photos and words of @GeO and @Santirx etc, before you know it you end up sliding down that rabbit hole into another dimension. So in going back to the start of the thread and re-read, I noted that I would need a couple of important bits if I was to even make a start on Phase Two.

Firstly an adapter to hook up the in-car wiring (as seen in Post #422 on Page 22), so I searched the world of the 'infernal net' and located only one on 'Fleabay that looked something like the one I had seen on the forum. I placed an order from across the pond and hope to see it arrive by months end and with a transport cost of nearly twice the purchase price, I hope it gets a seat at the front of the plane and limo pickup. :unsure: :confused:

Secondly, I needed to find a good MOST adapter (Helix SDM125 seems preferred) and once again, it seems to only be available from across the other pond. But at least the transport costs are much better - perhaps the boat doesn't have champagne and limo service and that's why I might get it by November! ;)

With those two slowly finding their way here, my concern turned to the wiring adapter and making sure it will 'adapt' to my car. Unlike GeO, my car is a 2017 Bose equipped car and the only wiring diagrams that have floated on the Forum are clearly for pre 2017 models. So, it was down into the rabbit hole - that space where the amp resides, to find out what luck I might have. Fishing out the amp from the mounting is straightforward, then a flick of the finger unlocks the wiring connector. As expected, a close look revealed the connector does not have the hoped for 32 pins that would see it marry up with the early wiring diagram, it has in fact 38 pins. Once I worked out how to remove the back cover from the multi pin connector, I mapped the pin wiring. While it revealed the same Pin 1 & 2 power and earth connections, the rest of the wiring went off in another direction. During my Phase One speaker replacement, I was careful enough to note the wiring colours, but it becomes difficult to back track as the factory has used some plain white wiring on some doors, so it is difficult to relate what colours they connect with and there are a few places where the 34 wires used are repeat colours at the connector.

I now have two important issues to resolve, firstly trying to find a speaker wiring diagram for a 2017 model and secondly, will the new wiring adapter actually fit? So if anyone can help out on the first point I will be externally grateful. But, I guess the whole thing will revolve around the wiring adapter, if it doesn't fit (highly likely) then the job goes in the too hard bin as I will be very reluctant to try a cut and shut job on the cars wiring loom.

The other observation I did make on the wiring diagram, is the two connectors going to the 'Microphone' (Pin 26 and 27 of a pre 17 model which may be Pins 29 & 30 of a post 17), from a comment @GeO made at Post #422, are these part of an active noise cancellation system power feed if so, what happens if they are not connected as looks to be the way it's being done?
 

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Trouble with this topic is, it sucks you in! Having completed the Phase One part - speaker upgrade, the next phase of replacing and upgrading the amp flows on from the photos and words of @GeO and @Santirx etc, before you know it you end up sliding down that rabbit hole into another dimension. So in going back to the start of the thread and re-read, I noted that I would need a couple of important bits if I was to even make a start on Phase Two.

Firstly an adapter to hook up the in-car wiring (as seen in Post #422 on Page 22), so I searched the world of the 'infernal net' and located only one on 'Fleabay that looked something like the one I had seen on the forum. I placed an order from across the pond and hope to see it arrive by months end and with a transport cost of nearly twice the purchase price, I hope it gets a seat at the front of the plane and limo pickup. :unsure: :confused:

Secondly, I needed to find a good MOST adapter (Helix SDM125 seems preferred) and once again, it seems to only be available from across the other pond. But at least the transport costs are much better - perhaps the boat doesn't have champagne and limo service and that's why I might get it by November! ;)

With those two slowly finding their way here, my concern turned to the wiring adapter and making sure it will 'adapt' to my car. Unlike GeO, my car is a 2017 Bose equipped car and the only wiring diagrams that have floated on the Forum are clearly for pre 2017 models. So, it was down into the rabbit hole - that space where the amp resides, to find out what luck I might have. Fishing out the amp from the mounting is straightforward, then a flick of the finger unlocks the wiring connector. As expected, a close look revealed the connector does not have the hoped for 32 pins that would see it marry up with the early wiring diagram, it has in fact 38 pins. Once I worked out how to remove the back cover from the multi pin connector, I mapped the pin wiring. While it revealed the same Pin 1 & 2 power and earth connections, the rest of the wiring went off in another direction. During my Phase One speaker replacement, I was careful enough to note the wiring colours, but it becomes difficult to back track as the factory has used some plain white wiring on some doors, so it is difficult to relate what colours they connect with and there are a few places where the 34 wires used are repeat colours at the connector.

I now have two important issues to resolve, firstly trying to find a speaker wiring diagram for a 2017 model and secondly, will the new wiring adapter actually fit? So if anyone can help out on the first point I will be externally grateful. But, I guess the whole thing will revolve around the wiring adapter, if it doesn't fit (highly likely) then the job goes in the too hard bin as I will be very reluctant to try a cut and shut job on the cars wiring loom.

The other observation I did make on the wiring diagram, is the two connectors going to the 'Microphone' (Pin 26 and 27 of a pre 17 model which may be Pins 29 & 30 of a post 17), from a comment @GeO made at Post #422, are these part of an active noise cancellation system power feed if so, what happens if they are not connected as looks to be the way it's being done?
Hi @Gra, you are correct in that this thread mostly apply to Macan 2015/16 with PCM3.1 when it comes to aftermarket amplifier upgrade.

If your model is 2017, I believe you have PCM4.0. A whole new ball game. Starting with the MOST ring network. For 2015/16 models that have PCM3.1, we have the MOST25, but I believe you must have the MOST150 in yours which requires a different interface (not sure if HELIX have developed one)... see this thread: Taking the plunge and upgrading my sound system

Therefore, if you in fact have PCM4.0 and have ordered the HELIX SDM125, I suggest you cancel your order. Maybe @Ge0 or others can provide you with information on the right interface you need for PCM4.0. If you have PCM3.1, then you are most likely fine.

I’m not sure if 2017 and newer models manual is already in the web, but I’ll also give it a try to help you locate it, later today. Good luck!


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Discussion Starter #636
Hi @Gra, you are correct in that this thread mostly apply to Macan 2015/16 with PCM3.1 when it comes to aftermarket amplifier upgrade.

If your model is 2017, I believe you have PCM4.0. A whole new ball game. Starting with the MOST ring network. For 2015/16 models that have PCM3.1, we have the MOST25, but I believe you must have the MOST150 in yours which requires a different interface (not sure if HELIX have developed one)... see this thread: Taking the plunge and upgrading my sound system

Therefore, if you in fact have PCM4.0 and have ordered the HELIX SDM125, I suggest you cancel your order. Maybe @Ge0 or others can provide you with information on the right interface you need for PCM4.0. If you have PCM3.1, then you are most likely fine.

I’m not sure if 2017 and newer models manual is already in the web, but I’ll also give it a try to help you locate it, later today. Good luck!


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NAV-TV sells a MOST150 adapter. Rumor has it another company named MoBridge does as well. I believe MoBridge is an Australian company.

Worse case, you could always tap off the speaker level outputs from the Bose amp. But, I would only do that as a last resort knowing how much processing Bose does to the speaker signals.

Gra was correct, you don't use the microphone wires that go into the amp.

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OPERATION SUBWOOFER is a go!

Investigational phase.... Started with a mock cardboard model... using models that others have already done here.





Making sure that the sub external dimension fit... it is close.



Did a quick 3D computer model to calculate the volume (I need at least 12 lt for the Audison APS 10D). This is a very rough 3d model, I do need to tidy up some measurements, but good approximation (+/- 5%).



234569


234570


Volume = 957 cu-in or 15.5 lt. This is the total body mass assuming is a block of wood. I need to carve out this block to make it a box, but in the end, I think I’ll be very close to 12 - 13 lt.

234571


With the subwoofer dimensions...








I will take my time with this project, likely a month or two.... I hope to start it at some point soon. My plan is to build the box out of MDF board.


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Discussion Starter #638
OPERATION SUBWOOFER is a go!

Investigational phase.... Started with a mock cardboard model... using models that others have already done here.





Making sure that the sub external dimension fit... it is close.



Did a quick 3D computer model to calculate the volume (I need at least 12 lt for the Audison APS 10D). This is a very rough 3d model, I do need to tidy up some measurements, but good approximation (+/- 5%).



View attachment 234569

View attachment 234570

Volume = 957 cu-in or 15.5 lt. This is the total body mass assuming is a block of wood. I need to carve out this block to make it a box, but in the end, I think I’ll be very close to 12 - 13 lt.

View attachment 234571

With the subwoofer dimensions...





I will take my time with this project, likely a month or two.... I hope to start it at some point soon. My plan is to build the box out of MDF board.


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Why does that cardboard box look so familiar :). Also, remember, you can build down into the battery well to gain internal volume. You don't have an amp sitting there like I do. If you want to build all out of MDF look at the enclosure Phroenips built.

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Why does that cardboard box look so familiar :). Also, remember, you can build down into the battery well to gain internal volume. You don't have an amp sitting there like I do. If you want to build all out of MDF look at the enclosure Phroenips built.

Ge0
I learned from the best... that cardboard trick is very useful. Also, I was going to use your method to determine volume, but I didn’t have foam peanuts... I decided to do the 3D model instead...


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Discussion Starter #640
I learned from the best... that cardboard trick is very useful. Also, I was going to use your method to determine volume, but I didn’t have foam peanuts... I decided to do the 3D model instead...


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What software did you use for the model? Looks like you were able to throw that together pretty quick.

Ge0
 
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