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Maybe author got a ticket and is upset? Don't believe everything you read. Its an opinion, not an authoritative fact.

- Notice the words "use of these cameras could violate the Sixth Amendment. ... the right to be confronted with the witnesses against them". But, then admits its a civil citation and NOT criminal. "the “ticket” in most places is nothing more than a civil fine", :rolleyes:

- "Although there generally are appeals procedures, they typically do not give drivers a day in court." Is that true or not? I'm not looking at all the states but quickly pulling one out, IL, it says. "you can appeal before a judge". CA mentions a judge. Florida mentions a judge.. Wild guess here, you probably can appeal.

- "There are several for-profit companies that install and operate the cameras" :eek: NO. That's can't be. There are actually companies in the USA that MAKE PROFITS??? And local governments don't have the resources to run the camera so they outsource them? Tell me that's not true. Maybe they should just outsource to some foreign call centers? :rolleyes: I can't believe there are companies whose intention it is to make money.

- "Studies to confirm those claims have yielded mixed results." Here are the facts. Actual statistics. As the number of programs has declined, deaths in red-light-running crashes increased from 696 in 2012 to 811 in 2016, ...The fatal red-light-running crash rate was 30 percent higher in cities that turned off cameras than it would have been if the cameras remained on. The rate of all fatal crashes at signalized intersections was 16 percent higher." Some can be attributed to coming out of recession.

- "these cameras are deeply unpopular" NO!!! You mean people don't want to get caught???? I can't believe that.

This is an opinion piece so its pretty useless in the sense that anyone can also right an opinion piece.

If the camera's save ONE life. How much is life worth? BTW, Ford put a price on human life. $200K. You think your spouse, your own, or your kid's life is worth $200K (adjust for inflation). I have to pass through red light camera every day and regularly through speed cameras. Far more interesting are the speed cameras. They just light up the night in construction zones and drivers ignore the warning signs. They ARE TOLD the speed cameras are on, and REFUSE to slow down. And then complain they get tickets.
 

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Red light camera's I'm all for, people should never run red lights. There's a bunch in my city, never been a problem if you don't push your luck.

Speed camera's though are a terrible thing, they don't help safety at all. Politically motivated excessively low limits make them a cash grab. If the speed limits were realistic, then MAYBE they'd be okay. Limits up here are 100km/h on the bigger 400 series highways and everyone does 120-130km/h because the limits are stupid and the police don't enforce it unless you're doing 140km/h+. So if the speed camera's were set to 140km/h, sure, but if they were set to 100km/h that would be laughable as 99% of the population would get tickets.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Many red light cameras are also speed cameras here in AZ.

I suspect most of the citations are for speeding as opposed to running the red light.
No, I'm not going to to look it up.

I got my first red light ticket several months ago.
BTW, I do not run red lights.

The video would have shown me going through that intersection at about 10 mph. My guess is most of the people who actually run red lights are going well over the speed limit through the intersection since they probably punched it on the yellow to try to make it through.

In my case I was not speeding since this was a speed trap area anyway. As I was almost to the intersection the light changed to yellow and I easily could've made it all the way through and out before it changed to red. All without increasing my speed above the speed limit.
However, some idiot, from oncoming traffic, made a slow left turn right in front of me! I would've T-boned him if I didn't slam on the brakes. I slowed down to about 5 mph but, now I was one quarter the way into the intersection. I knew the light was going to change to red so, I punched it and accelerated through the rest of the intersection. Probably getting up to 10 mph by the time I exited it.

I noted the flash of the camera!

If a cop pulled me over, I could've explained but, I doubt any cop watching would've pulled me over, since he would've seen exactly what happened and knew that I did the safe thing and avoided the crash.

I got a citation in the mail for hundreds of dollars and knew it would be points against my license. Doesn't matter that it is Civil versus Criminal. It still is a very negative consequence. Higher insurance costs, money out-of-pocket, etc.

I actually considered fighting in court but, knew they would not care, they just want the money.

I did have it dismissed using methods available to anyone who wants to Google online how to get out of camera traffic citations in Arizona.
 

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If the camera's save ONE life. How much is life worth?
Facial recognition technology borders on 4th amendment infringement, but could possibly save one life. There are many things we could do to save one life, but that will also violate our civil liberties.
 

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However, some idiot, from oncoming traffic, made a slow left turn right in front of me! I would've T-boned him if I didn't slam on the brakes. I slowed down to about 5 mph but, now I was one quarter the way into the intersection. ... I got a citation in the mail for hundreds of dollars and knew it would be points against my license.
OK. We know that traffic laws are regulated by states, not federal law. Each state can be different. Some things are pretty universal like "stop on red" but some things are different. Not all red light cameras work that way. AZ appears to give a ticket if you are in the intersection while red. In other states, if you are already across the white line when the light turns red, no ticket. Thats the choice of AZ. They also seem to give you points. Not good, I agree. VA is the opposite. and notorious for going after speeders. No points, nothing against insurance. $50.

Facial recognition technology borders on 4th amendment infringement, but could possibly save one life. There are many things we could do to save one life, but that will also violate our civil liberties.
Overtime a new enforcement technique comes up, people run to the courts. Its easy to find this for red light and speed cameras. Claims of the Confrontation Clause and 4th amendment are all over the place. Lots of papers written. Its been argued for many years. To date, SCOTUS has not made any final ruling that I can find. Obviously, the cameras still exist. The essence is what you do in public is not private. There is no expectation of privacy. Its conduct done in plain sight. Example: "warrantless search and seizure of properties are not illegal, if the objects being searched are in plain view.". Since cameras have been around for two decades or so and they still exist for traffic violations, I would guess if they were unconstitutional, at lease one case would have gone to SCOTUS. It seems to me the issue, state dependent, no violation is issue unless a traffic violation occurs. Taking pictures of anyone in public is legal everywhere AFAIK. What you do with the picture might be different.

Facial Technology is new. Lots of discussions, papers, etc. While red light cameras are catching those that break traffic laws, this ups the ante. It can be used to hunt fugitives or persons of interest after a law has been broken. An interesting take is this. https://reason.com/2019/07/08/is-facial-recognition-the-new-fingerprinting-or-something-much-worse/ Its no different than fingerprints, each one unique. Anyone arguing about using fingerprints? I would expect to see the same flurry of lawsuits, papers, arguments about this tech as happened 15 years ago for red light cameras. Since States control traffic laws, maybe SCOTUS has no interest in messing with State laws. I don't know. If facial recognition can be used at airports, transportation terminals, interstate and international travel, maybe SCOTUS will rule on this?

I view these two things entirely different. In the former, a traffic law has been broken. Click. Smile. Get a ticket. You know you broke the law. You know you crossed the white line. Its done in public. There is no expectation of privacy. If you are out in public, anyone can take your picture. Ever see people take pictures of cars and blur out the plate? Why? Everyone sees your plate every day in public. Your picture is everywhere from cameras in stores looking for shoplifters to those red light cameras. Now they have to link that picture to a name, and that is maybe where they get in trouble. Where do the names come from? The DMV? Again, state controlled. This is why the ticket goes to the registered owner of the car and not the driver. There has to be a link from picture to name. And that might be the weak link in the facial tech usage. If SCOTUS rules it a violation of the 4th amendment, so be it. The rights of the people are not to be infringed by the government. That is the law of the land. Its up to SCOTUS to interpret the constitution, not advocates on either side, not editorials in "websites", only SCOTUS.
 

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As much as I would hate to receive a ticket for going through a red light, I'm absolutely appalled at volume people here in South Florida running very red lights! It is the same with not using blinkers while changing lanes. Although, not putting on a blinker can lead to an accident usually both cars are doing roughly the same speed and "may" not lead to a bad accident. But running a very red light can lead to a T-Boning where people get killed, a lot!

It is ridiculous to say that it is undermining the rule of law and you can bang on about your amendments etc all day long but it will be Boo Hoo when you or a loved one are seriously hurt or killed because some arrogant idiot runs a red light. Here is an analogy, in financial anti terrorism all sorts of transactions (cars in traffic) are scanned (the red light camera) for bad guys, applying the same logic we should stop doing that, right?

So if red light cameras help this then I will take a chance on getting a ticket anytime. Of course cases like iconoclast notwithstanding and I'm sure it stung to get the ticket, collateral damage unfortunately.
 

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Facial recognition technology borders on 4th amendment infringement, but could possibly save one life. There are many things we could do to save one life, but that will also violate our civil liberties.
BTW, if facial tech bothers anyone, then this should scare the ****** out of you: https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/20/cars/mercedes-trackers-intl-scli/index.html

In the UK, MB is tracking down those who don't make the car payments to repossess the cars. If you have Porsche Connect, then you know the car has an app so you can see where your car is. If you can see where your car is, you don't think the car maker can know where it is? Where's the outrage?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
...Facial Technology is new. Lots of discussions, papers, etc. ...
"The Most Spied Upon Cities In The World”
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/most-spied-on-cities-in-the-world.html

Face Recognition
https://www.eff.org/pages/face-recognition


https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/avoid-facial-recognition/

"China to build giant facial recognition database to identify any citizen within seconds”

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2115094/china-build-giant-facial-recognition-database-identify-any
 

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As much as I would hate to receive a ticket for going through a red light, I'm absolutely appalled at volume people here in South Florida running very red lights! It is the same with not using blinkers while changing lanes. Although, not putting on a blinker can lead to an accident usually both cars are doing roughly the same speed and "may" not lead to a bad accident. But running a very red light can lead to a T-Boning where people get killed, a lot!

It is ridiculous to say that it is undermining the rule of law and you can bang on about your amendments etc all day long but it will be Boo Hoo when you or a loved one are seriously hurt or killed because some arrogant idiot runs a red light. Here is an analogy, in financial anti terrorism all sorts of transactions (cars in traffic) are scanned (the red light camera) for bad guys, applying the same logic we should stop doing that, right?

So if red light cameras help this then I will take a chance on getting a ticket anytime. Of course cases like iconoclast notwithstanding and I'm sure it stung to get the ticket, collateral damage unfortunately.
I am in South Florida . I agree with you about the drivers but disagree on the cameras . I feel the conscientious drivers not only make every effort to stop but even go to the point of neurosis with it. I can't even describe the whiplash or near rear end collisions I have experienced or saw with these cameras . While the safe drivers make the effort to stop the bad drivers could care less . They just pay the 100 bucks or so or in some cases its not even their car .

It begs the question of why are so many bad drivers on the road here ? That answer is yet another topic with a huge range of reasons . The short version is that many arrived here as middle age adults from countries with completely different roads or laws . Some never even drove . So basically one sees a 40 year old with the experience of a 16 year old but the reflexes and vision of a middle age person . Another reason hinges one the system . There are some people who really should have lost their license but got leniency in court . In fact if they actually lost the license they might drive anyway without it . At least keeping them with a license means enforcement can find them.

As for scanning cars for the "bad guys" I say great .. do it !! Just don't write a traffic citation with a camera .
 

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Texas banned them as of a month or so ago. All turned off!


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I haven’t heard this. Really?
 

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I am in South Florida . I agree with you about the drivers but disagree on the cameras . I feel the conscientious drivers not only make every effort to stop but even go to the point of neurosis with it. I can't even describe the whiplash or near rear end collisions I have experienced or saw with these cameras . While the safe drivers make the effort to stop the bad drivers could care less . They just pay the 100 bucks or so or in some cases its not even their car .

It begs the question of why are so many bad drivers on the road here ? That answer is yet another topic with a huge range of reasons . The short version is that many arrived here as middle age adults from countries with completely different roads or laws . Some never even drove . So basically one sees a 40 year old with the experience of a 16 year old but the reflexes and vision of a middle age person . Another reason hinges one the system . There are some people who really should have lost their license but got leniency in court . In fact if they actually lost the license they might drive anyway without it . At least keeping them with a license means enforcement can find them.

As for scanning cars for the "bad guys" I say great .. do it !! Just don't write a traffic citation with a camera .
I do concede your points, people nervous about the cameras and definately the experience (and upbringing where little regard is paid for other humans!) of the foreign drivers. Actually, I'm Australian and I guess have a different upbringing myself in that we've had cameras forever but the fine is around $450 and 3 of 12 points, not surprisingly people just stop at redlights. So it just comes down to making it sting, which would never equal the amount sting one would feel having to go to the morgue to ID a love one who has been sliced in half by some ignorant prick.
 

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It begs the question of why are so many bad drivers on the road here ? That answer is yet another topic with a huge range of reasons . The short version is that many arrived here as middle age adults from countries with completely different roads or laws . Some never even drove . So basically one sees a 40 year old with the experience of a 16 year old but the reflexes and vision of a middle age person . Another reason hinges one the system . There are some people who really should have lost their license but got leniency in court . In fact if they actually lost the license they might drive anyway without it . At least keeping them with a license means enforcement can find them.
You're talking about FL specifically, not the rest of the country? I can see that to some degree but more broadly, at the national level, I think maybe its your latter version, not the former - leniency and lack of enforcement that is not universal and horizontally applied.

IAW, while in VA if you do over 80 on an interstate there automatic reckless driving and over 90, say hello to jail, that's not true in other states. Some states are just more lenient in penalize than others. Ohio used to be notorious for strict enforcement. Is it today? Many people ignore the common rules of the road. They roll though stop signs. They don't signal lane changes. And there can't be a cop everywhere. Since every state can set it own traffic law, its own penalties, and enforcement is totally different, at the national level its a mess. And, its designed to be a mess.

Look at laws like right turn on red. The passage is all over the place in a time line. Some states adopted it early, others late, and some went as far as saying "OK, its the law" but NOT on these intersections.

In regards to driving without a license, LOL watch Live PD sometime. They regularly film people stopped with no license, no insurance, and no they are going to jail.
 

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I haven’t heard this. Really?
Really. And, I'm pi$$ed because this happened. I started driving when I was 12. At 70, I STILL believe driving is a privilege and NOT a right. I believe there should be much more stringent driving tests. REAL ones like being forced to learn on manual transmissions as in Germany. Get tested driving a manual transmission. Real testing as in power starts and power stops as in panic braking. Licenses should be renewed every four years with driving tests EACH and EVERY time.

Traffic cameras? You bet your donkey, baby! I think every time I see this I think "Oh, you must be important and in a hurry". I am too. STOP!

And don't get me started on blocking intersections when the roads are crowded.
 
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