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Anyone happen to know the "safety" margin for a Turbo?
Unless we have a Porsche employee working on this product that is willing to disclose proprietary information, no one here can know that. Including the guys from the tuner shops, which is why randomly upping boost without understanding the system constraints is so risky.
 

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550 nm equals 406 lb-ft
Incidentally this is the exact amount of torque in the S6; if you believe Audi's published numbers. ( I don't, they're way understated according to real world performance of the car)

The S6 has the same transmission if I recall correctly so the capability of it must exceed the Earlier stated figure. The RS6/7 however, has an additional 110ft lbs and an 8speed auto, so I think it's safe to assume that the margin lies somewhere around there.
 

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It blows my mind when people act like this. Audi make incredibly well engineered cars (all these transmissions are engineered at ZF arguably anyway) and has done quite well in Motorsport, winning 12 of the Lemans races this century. Somehow though, suggesting that the cheapest Porsche model in existence might use a very strong transmission from high end Audi cars is insulting and worthy of an argument????
I happen to really like the Audi 2.0t in the base Macan and that was a strong point for me buying one, of course if it had a Porsche 2.0t, that would have been better. My point is that the 2.0T, from Audi, is a great little engine. Audi can and does make great vehicles and engines
 

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Incidentally this is the exact amount of torque in the S6; if you believe Audi's published numbers. ( I don't, they're way understated according to real world performance of the car)

The S6 has the same transmission if I recall correctly so the capability of it must exceed the Earlier stated figure. The RS6/7 however, has an additional 110ft lbs and an 8speed auto, so I think it's safe to assume that the margin lies somewhere around there.
My S6 put 585TQ to the wheels every single day I owned it for three full years. I made in excess of 200 launch control passes. Not one issue with the transmission for me.

My Macan Turbo has bene programmed for over a year now and it is making 563TQ to the wheels, with no issues as of yet.

I have read about the transfer case replacements on this forum, so it is an issue that I have kept my eye on.

One thing to consider is that the gearing on your transmission is a torque multiplier, in lower gears, there is much more torque present than at higher gears and higher RPM's.
 

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Unless we have a Porsche employee working on this product that is willing to disclose proprietary information, no one here can know that. Including the guys from the tuner shops, which is why randomly upping boost without understanding the system constraints is so risky.
So there's no where the torque rating for the Turbo's PDK would be published (at least outside the company)?
 

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You are right! I plugged in 500 nm instead of 550 nm in the online converter. :(

Still puzzles me that Porsche beefed up the GTS's PDK.
Interesting. Is that definite (that GTS has a beefed up PDK)?
 

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Yes. GTS has the same PDK unit as the Turbo, which has a beefed up clutch pack vs. the S.
 

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Yes. GTS has the same PDK unit as the Turbo, which has a beefed up clutch pack vs. the S.
Ah that makes sense. How about PDK's on Macan's having issues? That true? From what I've seen seems like it's been largely reliable? Mine's great so far.
 

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The way I understand that the units are put together is that the PDK gearbox is a fixed item built in the VW plant. But the clutch pack can be variable as can the mechatronics (the computer and control switchgear). So it stands to reason one could upgrade just the clutch pack module to handle more torque.

There's another item that people have missed. The DL501 transmission can handle 550 NM at 9000 rpm. It can probably handle more at lower rpm. How much more is anyone's guess, but clearly Porsche felt the need to keep their safety margins at some percentage, so they uprated the GTS clutch. I feel perfectly comfortable with the Cobb tune I have on my S. There is no evidence of clutch slippage or lumpy bumpy shenanigans in the drive train. Others may not feel so comfortable, in which case a tune is not for them.
 

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Ah that makes sense. How about PDK's on Macan's having issues? That true? From what I've seen seems like it's been largely reliable? Mine's great so far.
Hi @K-A, That soft air suspension on your S cushions the PDK shifts, thereby rendering it much more reliable. I doubt you'll have a problem.;)
 
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There is a wealth more of PDK information scattered in a few other thread from England so I've copied them here rather than move the posts and mess up the other threads. For information purposes

http://www.macanforum.com/forum/engine-technical-discussion/44098-turbo-engne-math.html#post794442

DSG and PDK are the exact same thing ... What we need to realize here is yes Porsche has mentioned the 400 lb-ft limit of our PDK as to why the engines are tuned down like they are, and yes is scares people on this forum that this "week link" will limit their future fun if adding boost and worrying about warranty. Porsche's reasoning behind this limit is based off the fact they designed this Macan to not only be able to be loaded down to 5,600lbs (GVWR) plus pull a 5,000lb trailer behind and not whimper a bit. So if we go and flash our Macans and say we added another 50-80lb-ft of torque, do I think we would have any issues, No. I think our PDK will handle what ever driving style you choose. But there will be those who take their now flashed cars and will load them up and pull a heavy trailer and will use that extra power and will have issues.

http://www.macanforum.com/forum/engine-technical-discussion/40002-macan-turbo-dyno-run.html#post772905

The Macan will not be getting a power boost until they redesign or improve the Audi sourced PDK. Trust me though they will but for now we might be a little concerned when we do start re-flashing these. Adding another 60-100 lb-ft of torque may just be the breaking point for our PDKs. Especially the even number clutches, they are only 5.5" in diameter and are the weak link. That's why our 1-2 up shifts are so smooth and doesnt just slam the clutch closed like it does on our sports cars.


http://www.macanforum.com/forum/modifications/14009-macan-s-engine-software-upgrade-2.html#post775554

Porsche built this thing to handle somebody taking these things off road and to drive the crap out of it like its some rally car. Or to turn PSM off and see if they can get all four tires smoking by doing a tight donut while floored. That's why we pay extra for a Porsche and what most normal drivers just don't see or ever get the value out the engineering that goes into cars. You pay extra to get a vehicle that is built stout enough to actually go do what you see Porsche doing in all their advertisements. Porsche would be embarrassed if it couldn't do what it shows you it does. What Porsche is telling you as a buyer is that the way the vehicle is built right now in stock form, can handle you taking it to race track and run it as hard as you dare, if you're willing to buy tires and brakes then the rest of the car will handle it. However if you start to modify it with a re-flash, different suspension, oversized wheels or race tires, there are risks and most likely be a denied waranty claim. All these new owners don't realize how expensive things can get if you have to pay out of pocket. That would ruin their experience with Porsche and not be Porsche's or the dealerships fault. We run into this a lot.


http://www.macanforum.com/forum/engine-technical-discussion/40002-macan-turbo-dyno-run.html#post773682

As with any modification you will most likly get away with it for years but you are shorting the life of the componets involved. I'm sure our PDKs will handle well over 400 lb-ft without an issues for a while but for how long is the question and if it does go bad, might not be warrantied, I would go to bet these PDKs are around $20k to replace
 

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I wonder what they have done to the PDK to comfortably handle the 443 ft-lb of the Turbo PP. Or if there was enough wiggle room already with the unit in the GTS/Turbo version. In which case I would not worry to chip mod my GTS. The press release for the PP is vague as usual in that regard:"The seven-speed PDK double-clutch transmission is now designed to deliver extremely short response times, optimum switching points and increased torque during gear changes for maximum acceleration."
 

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I wonder what they have done to the PDK to comfortably handle the 443 ft-lb of the Turbo PP. Or if there was enough wiggle room already with the unit in the GTS/Turbo version. In which case I would not worry to chip mod my GTS. The press release for the PP is vague as usual in that regard:"The seven-speed PDK double-clutch transmission is now designed to deliver extremely short response times, optimum switching points and increased torque during gear changes for maximum acceleration."
@trusted Either they beefed up the clutch packs again, or, equally likely, they looked at the PDK failure rates on 2+ years of Macan Turbo sales and extrapolated how much cushion they could still use on the PP without significantly increasing the failure rate.
 

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So you're contention is that Porsche engineers designed the DL501 for Audi? Do you have a source for this?
In response

This type of transmission was invented by Frenchman Adolphe Kégresse just before World War II, although he never developed a working model. The first development of the twin clutch or dual-clutch transmission started in the early part of 1980 under the guidance of Harry Webster at Automotive Products (AP), Leamington Spa with prototypes built into the Ford Fiesta Mk1, Ford Ranger & Peugeot 205. Initially, the control systems were based on purely analogue/discrete digital circuitry with patents filed in July 1981.[4] All of these early AP twin clutch installations featured a single dry clutch and multi-plate wet clutch. Following discussions with VW/Porsche, DCT work continued from Porsche in-house development, for Audi and Porsche racing cars later in the 1980s,[2] when computers to control the transmission became compact enough: the Porsche Doppelkupplungsgetriebe (English: dual-clutch gearbox) (PDK)[2] used in the Porsche 956[2] and 962[2] Le Mans race cars from 1983,[2] and the Audi Sport Quattro S1.[5][6]
 

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@BigglesUK


Red Herring-

That would be like saying since Henry Ford or Karl Benz (depending on your view) created the car, all cars since then are Fords or MBs. @rhoyle was asking about the DL501 in particular, not DCTs in general.

Also, welcome to Wikipedia, where everything written is the truth!
 

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Has it ever been determined whether the diesel (580nm/428lb-ft) with more torque than the Turbo (550nm/406lb-ft) is fitted with the PDK with the upgraded clutch pack to handle the torque?
My guess would be that it must be, but it'd be nice to know for sure.
 

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In response

This type of transmission was invented by ...
if you are going to quote Wiki, then ATTRIBUTE it to wiki. Wiki, of course, just takes it from other articles. As previously noted, the generalized Wiki info is meaningless in this context. If you really think your getting anything close to a 956 gearbox ... well.

From the original german. Hatz WAS the R&D director until he is no longer working, I believe, for Porsche for his role in the scandal.

http://www.macanforum.com/forum/engine-technical-discussion/21282-origins-pdk-audi-zf-unicorn-tears-etc.html#post330562

VW Werk Kassel erhält Milliarden - und fertigt für Porsche | Wirtschaft

"Erstmals wird der Standort Baunatal auch für Porsche fertigen, sagt Stumpf. Das große DQ-Getriebe DL 501 ist für den Porsche Cajun gedacht – die Light-Version des Porsche Cayenne."

Something like this: "For the first time the [VW] Factory Baunatal will produce for Porsche, said Stumpf [member of the VW board]. The big DQ gearbox DL501 is meant for the Porsche Cajun, the light version of the Porsche Cayenne. "

Or a quote from a Porsche developer:

"Dann haben wir auch ein Doppelkupplungsgetriebe entwickelt; eine Ableitung des DL501-Audi-Getriebes, mit komplett neuer Software und einem ganz neuen Allradsystem, dem Porsche-Hang-On-Allradsystem....Die Änderungen von Porsche sehe ich als Chance und Risiko zugleich."

"We then also developed a dual-clutch gearbox; a derivative of the DL501 Audi gearbox, with completely new software and an entirely new all-wheel system, the Porsche-Hang-On-Allwheelsystem...I see the Porsche changes as an opportunity and a risk at the same time."


Porsche Head of Development Wolfgang Hatz, from Feb 11 2014. It is from a German car manufacturing trade publication, and the original is here
Porsche-Entwicklungsvorstand Wolfgang Hatz: "Einen Vierzylinder werden wir beim Macan sicherlich machen"


And from England noted above ... http://www.macanforum.com/forum/engine-technical-discussion/44098-turbo-engne-math.html#post794442

Porsche originally invented the dual clutch trans back in the 80's for racing and letting VW work out the technology for street use. Once VW and car computers came along enough to make them reliably and perform as intended, Porsche comes along and designs their versions for their unique platform's needs and has ZF build them. Then comes along an SUV that is based off an Audi product and it just so happens that since our engines are hanging way out front like every other Audi and they just happened to already be using a PDK (DSG) in several of their sportier cars that fit the engine out front layout so why not use it.

This, of course, jives with the Wiki article and clearly the 80s for racing refers to the Le Mans cars. But Audi built the production car unit which is this discussion. And we know the Macan PDK is not the same as the sports car PDK. This does not mean that Porsche did not modify the Audit unit because its been established they did. But Audi appears to be the builder.
 

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@trusted Either they beefed up the clutch packs again, or, equally likely, they looked at the PDK failure rates on 2+ years of Macan Turbo sales and extrapolated how much cushion they could still use on the PP without significantly increasing the failure rate.
If they did actually beef up the clutch packs or redesign the unit, it's unlikely based on enough failure rate data as I'd imagine they already had plans outlined for the PP 2 years ago and would've needed about that time to start the process of getting it engineered and into the production line. Not that it changes what you're essentially saying, but I'd guess they already knew that the PP would push the Macan PDK boundaries too hard.
 
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What's most important at least is that Porsche, much like the Macan chassis itself, was able to take an already great unit from Audi and have the luxury of tweaking it to any end to make it perform and act even more "Porsche-esque" than some of its siblings. For one thing, thankfully we didn't get the slushbox in the Cayenne. But for another, the Panamera's I've driven seemed to have "lazier" and slower tuned PDK's than the Macan.
 
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