[grim]

Anybody who still holds that ICEVs are better than BEVs have not driven a Taycan yet, and they should do so.

Not relevant if you can't afford to build the infrastructure at your house.

Understanding discontinuance among California’s electric vehicle owners
Hardman, S., Tal, G. Understanding discontinuance among California’s electric vehicle owners. Nat Energy (2021). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41560-021-00814-9

Can't quote from this, copyrighted material and pay to read it. Actual Survey, 5 years of study:

Data for project: Discontinuance among California’s electric vehicle buyers: Why are some consumers abandoning their electric vehicles?
Hardman, Scott (2021), Data for project: Discontinuance among California’s electric vehicle buyers: Why are some consumers abandoning their electric vehicles?, Dryad, Dataset, https://doi.org/10.25338/B8WS6R

Funding by US DOT.

Summarized in the Hill

New study explains why nearly 20 percent of electric car owners return to gas

Some EV owners are not satisfied.

thehill.com

You can pay the money and read the report, down load the data sets, or read the Hill summary.

Simple, 5 years of studying CA buyers indicates 18% of EV buyers dumped their EVs for gas and 20% for plug in hybrids. Looks like it focuses on lack of 240V service. And since the Tesla owners are less likely to bail out than the cheaper EVs, maybe it has to do with income inequality since you have to sink more into household infrastructure bring in the electrician, get the permit, and create the 240V service. Or put more simpler, EVs are for the rich based on the five years of surveys along with the problem of those not living in single family homes.

Why would anyone without a driveway buy an EV? There is no guaranteed place to park and how do you plug the thing in? So weird.

 

[jzwu]

It won’t be a problem if you have a garage. I did some research to figure out it’s pretty easy and cheap (a few hundred dollars) to install a 240v charging outlet (14-30/40/50) in your garage.

Of course, it’s challenging if you live in an apartment.

 

[wwahl]

It won’t be a problem if you have a garage. I did some research to figure out it’s pretty easy and cheap (a few hundred dollars) to install a 240v charging outlet (14-30/40/50) in your garage.

Of course, it’s challenging if you live in an apartment.

I looked at number of sources and they all seem to say 43% rent their place to live in the US. I doubt these folks are interested in paying for the installation of a 240v hook up for an electric car. Elsewhere, public infrastructure isn't up to the task of taking care of an electric car. Electric cars are just not here yet.

 

[jzwu]

I’d say 57% is a majority. EV is the future and it will come sooner than most realize it.

 

[Opt1k]

I’d say 57% is a majority. EV is the future and it will come sooner than most realize it.

Not sooner than 3 minute charging.

 

[jzwu]

I can take 30 mins charging. It’s barely more inconvenient than the 5-min gas-up plus a bathroom break.

 

[Jeme]

Tried Tesla, returned multiple times due to quality / services issues, fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. It may take Porsche some more time to make EV Macan appealing (e.g. safety, performance, price). Coming back to ICE Macan even knowing there maybe ICE related concerns. Would only consider when EV industries move toward safer Solid State battery or alternative solution (with minutes of charge time up to 1000 miles range), enable infra structure with both gas station and charging station support. We know it's tall order, not sure if it will ever happen. Until then, we're happy campers with ICE Macan.

I bought stock in, and owned one of the early Teslas for about a year. Installed chargers in my garage. First I got stuck on a 2-hour trip to Albany, NY where there weren't any charging stations. I was in for service at least half a dozen times. I started by loving this car and ended up disliking it. I traded it in and sold the stock. I now look at Teslas with pity. I'm sure the network is better for EVs now, but not good enough for me yet.

I would consider a hybrid.

 

[Jeme]

I can take 30 mins charging. It’s barely more inconvenient than the 5-min gas-up plus a bathroom break.

You still need to add the bathroom break and maybe wait in line for an available charger.

 

[jzwu]

I bought stock in, and owned one of the early Teslas for about a year. Installed chargers in my garage. First I got stuck on a 2-hour trip to Albany, NY where there weren't any charging stations. I was in for service at least half a dozen times. I started by loving this car and ended up disliking it. I traded it in and sold the stock. I now look at Teslas with pity. I'm sure the network is better for EVs now, but not good enough for me yet.

I would consider a hybrid.

2-hr radius is perfect for a Tesla. The maximum range within 2 hrs is about 150 miles. Which Tesla car doesn’t have an effective range of 150 miles?

As for build quality, I agree there’s a lot to be desired for Tesla, and that’s the reason I haven‘t bought one. Other car mfg’s are better at building cars but their tech is lagging quite a bit behind Tesla. I will wait for a few more years before getting an EV.

 

[cometguy]

I looked at number of sources and they all seem to say 43% rent their place to live in the US. I doubt these folks are interested in paying for the installation of a 240v hook up for an electric car. Elsewhere, public infrastructure isn't up to the task of taking care of an electric car. Electric cars are just not here yet.

Not sure your point here... I'll bet that 99% of Porsche owners own their own house and can charge at home (and certainly afford to put a 240-volt charging infrastructure in place for charging BEVs), at least in the USA. This is a Porsche forum, and this thread is about the Macan BEV. Electric cars are absolutely here now, and are the perfect commuter car for perhaps 99% of the American public who can charge at home (because the average American drives only about 30 miles a day). (Yes, public charging is still problematic, but most BEV owners do very little, if any, public charging -- because they don't need to. Most BEV owners own a second vehicle with an ICE, or else they just rent a car for out-of-town trips. In another decade, the whole infrastructure/technology situation regarding BEV road travel will be much different.)

 

[wwahl]

Not sure your point here... I'll bet that 99% of Porsche owners own their own house and can charge at home (and certainly afford to put a 240-volt charging infrastructure in place for charging BEVs), at least in the USA. This is a Porsche forum, and this thread is about the Macan BEV. Electric cars are absolutely here now, and are the perfect commuter car for perhaps 99% of the American public who can charge at home (because the average American drives only about 30 miles a day). (Yes, public charging is still problematic, but most BEV owners do very little, if any, public charging -- because they don't need to. Most BEV owners own a second vehicle with an ICE, or else they just rent a car for out-of-town trips. In another decade, the whole infrastructure/technology situation regarding BEV road travel will be much different.)

Your electric car does not have a refueling station where you need it in the woods. What is my point that you are unable to focus on? Gasoline powered cars go at least 400 miles between fill ups and the refill source is pretty much guaranteed. This is not a Porsche specific question. Our world is not ready for all your desires about electric stuff.

 

[grim]

Our world is not ready for all your desires about electric stuff.

Not specific to Comet because I don't know his mind but ... its pointless to argue with any "wanting" something to change. And never argue with someone with a cause. They don't want to hear statistics or real life. All they care about is their cause. The propaganda makes it worse because statistics: lies and dam lies. Some common techniques is to say EVs have increased in sales 10% year over year. They fail to tell you 10% of nothing is still nothing. Another technique is to lump plug in hybrids with EVs, fail, the cars are still gas. Another is to ignore WHERE the electricity comes from or to ignore the mining and exploitation of the land. Who cares that Lithium mines look like giant scars on the planet? Another is to ignore WHO CONTROLS the minerals. How many REE, Lithium, Cobalt, and Graphite mines you see in the USA? Another is to show "predictions" that never happen.

Henry Ford's wife drove an Electric Car. The electric cars failed. In a free market, what really matters is cost and convenience. Although I said don't argue statistics with people with a cause, you don't have a cause so here is hard data, reality. The 2020 car market was a bust across the border, everything is down so forget about it. The US sells about 16,000,000 cars year.

FINAL UPDATE: Quarterly Plug-In EV Sales Scorecard

The most comprehensive listing of plug-in EV sales for the United States. Compiled quarterly, yearly, and all-time by automaker.

insideevs.com

329,538 EVs sold in the USA in 2019. That is LESS than 2018 at 361,307
17,100,000 cars were sold in 2019. 1.93%

1.93%. Thats reality. Thats pitiful

Despite all the hype, all the predictions, all the "incentives", the mass market across the USA has rejected EVs. That does not mean they won't be accepted someday or have some kind of permanent spot in the marketplace, but unless government FORCE change, the buying public decides and today, you are RIGHT

"Our world is not ready for all your desires about electric stuff."

Some better charts

US Electric Car Sales in 2020 (Sales Decreased, Market Share Increased) - Charged Future

US electric car sales in 2020 remained relatively flat compared to 2019. Overall, there were around 320,000 sales. Market share increased to 2.2% nationwide.

www.chargedfuture.com

Just to add to this a bit, another thing commonly done is to make predictions about future sales, like:

"infrastructure will change"
"EVs will be everywhere"
"The price of lithium will drop"

Predictions are terrible. Kodak invented the digital sensor and did not predict it would replace film. If you see any predictions be very wary. People rarely take into account human ingenuity and technology advances. The world is running out of oil. WRONG. Its been running out of oil for a century. An excellent article on "predictions"

The Peculiar Blindness of Experts
Credentialed authorities are comically bad at predicting the future. But reliable forecasting is possible.

www.theatlantic.com

1968 World overpopulated - WRONG
Famine coming and WWIII - WRONG
Commodity prices to increase - WRONG

"... the track record of expert forecasters—in science, in economics, in politics—is as dismal as ever."

"The project lasted 20 years, and comprised 82,361 probability estimates about the future. The result: The experts were, by and large, horrific forecasters."

Those with speciality knowledge are terrible at forecasting. Those better know a little bit about everything, holistically analysis of systems.

I would be very careful about believing anyone's predictions about the future, especially in an area when the subject under discussion is nothing more than a means to an end, the end result being less pollution or CO2. Tomorrow someone will invent a bigger and better tech that could destroy lithium based chemistry and that would be the end of EVs. No one knows what technology will bring.

 

[aftCG]

It won’t be a problem if you have a garage. I did some research to figure out it’s pretty easy and cheap (a few hundred dollars) to install a 240v charging outlet (14-30/40/50) in your garage.

Of course, it’s challenging if you live in an apartment.

In many houses it won't be as easy as adding a 240v outlet in your garage.

I went to an early tech briefing on the Taycan. I'll say up front that I don't hate the car. It's a beast. I listened carefully to the home infrastructure discussion and it was clear I would have to upgrade the power panel in my house before I could ever charge a car in my garage.

Now we had to upgrade anyway but it was $3k just to get into the current century.

And you can only pull so much 240v from your house, which is why during the tech discussion they said Porsche was working on a utility system which would monitor when someone in your house used the stove or dryer, when it would instantly stop charging your car to prevent a blown circuit breaker, then start again later.

Not part of the discussion here but I did ask how long it would take to charge on 110v. Answer was 4-5 days.

I think the EV Macan will likely be a huge success. But the Taycan I saw was $160k and that's about $110k out of my league.

I'll have to stick with my fully enjoyable dinosaur until the used market comes down to my level.

 

[jzwu]

Check out the NEMA 14-30 outlet. It is the same one for the your washer/dryer and costs a few hundred dollars to install in any household. I guess you have a washer and a dryer in your house? A 14-30 outlet only draws 30 amp max so it puts a relatively low demand on your electrical system.

With an adaptor any electric car can be charged via the 14-30 outlet. Usually it takes overnight to get a full charge. For example, Tesla sells an adaptor for the 14-30 outlet to use on Tesla cars.

Gen 2 NEMA Adapters

Use a variety of household outlets to charge your Tesla with a Gen 2 NEMA Adapter. Simply attach the appropriate adapter to your Mobile Connector, plug into the corresponding outlet and begin charging. Adapter Max Distance Gained Per Hour of Charge Model S Model 3 Model X Model Y 5-15 3...

shop.tesla.com

 

[GHL]

We’re a corner case - already maxed out out main panel and a sub panel. We will need to spend 7-10k if/when we buy a BEV while still in this house. Ouch! What concerns me more living in a state and country that is pushing car owners to BEVs is the total lack of discussion or planning regarding power generation. Putting aside all the end-to-end life cycle environmental impact arguments, how will the US generate enough power to replace fossil fuels in power plants? Solar and wind aren’t the answer, hydro is limited and the same folks who want no fossil fuels also want no dams. Will the US accept a resurgence of new-tech nuclear? Looking down the road (pardon) we know a BEV will be our next (and probably last) vehicle - I was tempted to change our turbo order to the new Taycan Cross Turismo - but decided to wait. It will be interesting to see how Porsche manages their product lines and value propositions between the Taycan CT and the Macan EV.

 

[MarioM56]

I Love my Macan but would be concerned with the charging network in Ontario Canada. I think that they will need to improve the charging network to be comfortable with a full EV Macan. Maybe if the introduce a e-hybrid version.

 

[.101354]

Battery tech and infrastructure would have to improve tremendously before I would be interested. Some power source other than gasoline will be needed at some point but we are not there yet.

 

[cometguy]

Your electric car does not have a refueling station where you need it in the woods. What is my point that you are unable to focus on? Gasoline powered cars go at least 400 miles between fill ups and the refill source is pretty much guaranteed. This is not a Porsche specific question. Our world is not ready for all your desires about electric stuff.

The point is that 99% of BEV owners charge only at home or only at work 99% of the time. Most people don't buy BEVs for road trips, so it's a moot point talking about driving a BEV to "refuel in the woods". BEVs are much better than are ICEVs for local driving. Vehicles with ICEs are much better these days for long road trips (but in 10-20 years, it should be a very different world). I will not buy a BEV to take on road trips (though I may occasionally do so); I will buy a BEV for local use, and keep at least one vehicle with an ICE in it for my drives "in the woods" and across deserts.

 

[wwahl]

The point is that 99% of BEV owners charge only at home or only at work 99% of the time. Most people don't buy BEVs for road trips, so it's a moot point talking about driving a BEV to "refuel in the woods". BEVs are much better than are ICEVs for local driving. Vehicles with ICEs are much better these days for long road trips (but in 10-20 years, it should be a very different world). I will not buy a BEV to take on road trips (though I may occasionally do so); I will buy a BEV for local use, and keep at least one vehicle with an ICE in it for my drives "in the woods" and across deserts.

So I should buy ice skates without the blades? Not very practical is it?

 

[jzwu]

We at one time had 4 cars but only used one for long distance trips. EV’s are perfect for local/short distance trips. In the future, say 10 years, EV’s will be as convenient as ICE cars once the battery tech and public charging network have improved significantly.