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Discussion Starter #21
It would be pretty funny if I started driving around with a huge book of discs like it was 25 years back.
I know, kind of taking a step backwards:). But, I don't know of a streaming service that will send high bit-rate multi-channel audio through your phone. Try a few of your favorites on disc and see what you think. The unfortunate part is there are good and bad examples of multi-channel recordings. Some did it right. Some used it as a gimmick to place sounds where they don't belong. Read reviews on a recording before buying...

Ge0
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Anyone using TIDAL ?
That's the artist owned streaming service right? Haven't tried it yet. Still stuck on Spotify. Both services offer 320kbps streaming. Nobody offers multi-channel content yet. From what I read there are two primary reasons:

1.) There is not enough content out there to justify a dedicated service
2.) The data rate climbs quite high to maintain high fidelity

However, some video streaming services like VEVO have dedicated themselves to providing music video / concert content. Some of that is content is recorded in Dolby Surround. Now, if we could just get this service ported to our phones we may be in business.

I haven't looked into this because I've only owned my Macan for a month. But, it is possible to rip a DVD with 5.1 channel audio to a flash drive. However, I don't know if the PCM will decode it properly. That, and it will waste space since a lot of the data content is video which I don't need.

Ge0
 

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Cool thread - good discussion, thank you! And... following :)

I loosely consider myself an audiophile - though when you start to get down into the numbers and frequencies and stuff, I've never really dug in, until recently. Ran some software on my home system for room correction and was shocked at the results.... so I started digging in a little more.

Built a small audio system for my Cayman (simple 2ch + sub setup) and played with the EQ a bit. I wound up using an iPhone app by Faber Acoustic called Soundmeter X - looks like it does similar things to what your app does here. I downloaded a 192k/24bit "pink noise" file and played it while monitoring the frequency response curves from the driver's seat. Did the same on my room-corrected home system, and also from the driver's seat of my Cayenne w/Burmester.... and used those curves to tune the EQ in the Cayman to try to match.

Definitely makes a difference in smoothing out the sound.

I assume you're playing Pink Noise as well to generate these curves?

I'm not the biggest fan of Bose 2 channel simulated surround. This is where they take stereo sources such as CD, FM radio, streaming Bluetooth audio, and Sirius XM and try to turn it into surround music. It just sounds un-natural and meh... With surround OFF turning Linear mode ON or OFF comes down to personal preference. I like the fact that linear mode tames bass a little and extends highs. However, it also attenuates lower vocal range as well which makes vocals sound a little thin. I often bounce between Linear On/Off depending on what I am listening to.

NOW!!! Do yourself a favor and find some true multi-channel Dolby 5.1 or DVD audio discs of your favorite music and give this a try. Ebay is a good source. There may be others.

This is where the Bose system shines. It will blow you away with its accuracy. My "go to" reference is Miles Davis Kind of Blue in DVD audio. Holy crap does this sound real on this system. This is the prime example of what multi-channel audio can offer. Unfortunately multi-channel high end media solutions failed. Only a handful of people want them. 90% of the public is fine listening to Pandora streamed in 2 channels at 60KBPS.

OK. I went overboard. I agree with your initial assessment. However, I highly recommend you try some quality multi-channel source music :)

Ge0
Thanks for the info. It looks like Amazon has a large selection of audio DVDs. Don’t think I will be replacing my entire music library but I’ll try a couple of classic albums like Pet Sounds or some Steely Dan. I’ll see what I can find. It would be pretty funny if I started driving around with a huge book of discs like it was 25 years back.
Agreed to both of these. And if you think it sounds good w/Bose... you should hear it w/Burmester.

IMO the best multi-channel demo I've heard.... Dire Straits, Brother-In-Arms anniversary disc (DualDisc). If you can find this disc it is FANTASTIC in multi-channel and hires. Crisp, clean, tight.... it's my "go to" demo disc.


I haven't tried it in my wife's Macan yet (she has the Bose) but my first Cayenne was Bose-equipped and the hires multi-channel stuff almost eliminated the usual Bose gripes. Sounded impressively good.

Anyone using TIDAL ?
I was a subscriber for a little bit... actually only lasted through 2 free trials. Took the first free trial, quit... a few months later they offered me a 2nd trial... and left.

The quality is good, but after being a longtime Spotify Premium customer, it was hard to switch. They don't seem to have the same selection, and their "radio" really stinks. I've got a lot of curated Spotify radio channels I listen to and the TIDAL stuff just didn't compare. It really felt like most of their focus was on hip-hop artists (which is really the one sort of genre I do not listen to.)

So I generally have Spotify 320k streaming. If I want "nicer" I go to 192/24 ALAC format on my iPod via USB. And if I want "nicer still" then I go to DVD-Audio discs.
 

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Discussion Starter #25 (Edited)
Cool thread - good discussion, thank you! And... following :)

I loosely consider myself an audiophile - though when you start to get down into the numbers and frequencies and stuff, I've never really dug in, until recently. Ran some software on my home system for room correction and was shocked at the results.... so I started digging in a little more.

Built a small audio system for my Cayman (simple 2ch + sub setup) and played with the EQ a bit. I wound up using an iPhone app by Faber Acoustic called Soundmeter X - looks like it does similar things to what your app does here. I downloaded a 192k/24bit "pink noise" file and played it while monitoring the frequency response curves from the driver's seat. Did the same on my room-corrected home system, and also from the driver's seat of my Cayenne w/Burmester.... and used those curves to tune the EQ in the Cayman to try to match.

Definitely makes a difference in smoothing out the sound.

I assume you're playing Pink Noise as well to generate these curves?
Playing pink noise and reading with an RTA is one way to measure frequency response. However, this method is limited. The method I use is similar to what your Audio Video receiver does. Room EQ Wizard (the free software I use) plays a controlled sine sweep and measures the sound systems playback response to it. Room EQ Wizard uses something called impulse response to derive a number of measurements.

1.) Frequency response
2.) Phase
3.) Timing
4.) Distortion
5.) Reverberation

Studying #2 --> #5 can tell you why #1 looks the way it does. There are physical adjustments you can make (inverting speaker phase, adding soft surfaces, aiming / locating speakers) to correct frequency response and sound stage prior to any electronic manipulation.

Agreed to both of these. And if you think it sounds good w/Bose... you should hear it w/Burmester.

IMO the best multi-channel demo I've heard.... Dire Straits, Brother-In-Arms anniversary disc (DualDisc). If you can find this disc it is FANTASTIC in multi-channel and hires. Crisp, clean, tight.... it's my "go to" demo disc.


I haven't tried it in my wife's Macan yet (she has the Bose) but my first Cayenne was Bose-equipped and the hires multi-channel stuff almost eliminated the usual Bose gripes. Sounded impressively good.
A good quality music source is a must. The quality of a recording should not cloud your judgement of a sound system. With that being equal there are differences between the Burmester system and Bose that makes Burm superior:

1.) More power per channel
2.) Marginally better quality loudspeakers
3.) The Burmester system is fully active. The Bose system is a mixture of active and passive.
4.) Greater processing power.

The best modern systems have processors that can apply parametric EQ, gain, phase, cross over, and timing to each individual loudspeaker. The aftermarket has offered this for 10+ years. Now, the cost of the electronics is getting cheap enough for OEM suppliers like Bose, Harman, Burmester, B&O, etc. to take advantage of it. They can now do more within their cost target. They also have more powerful tools (DSP / software) available to them to tune and apply corrections.

Mind you, the Burmester system should not be a $6500 option. An equivalent aftermarket system can be built for half that cost. However, it perfectly integrates into the vehicle and no labor is involved in costructing it. That's worth while to many folks who want that degree of sound system.

Ge0
 

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...such a good thread. Going to go order some Pink Floyd CDs now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #27
...such a good thread. Going to go order some Pink Floyd CDs now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Oh yeah. Spark one up (before you get in your car of course) and then put in Dark Side of the Moon in 5.1 Dolby Digital. It will blow you away.

Ge0
 

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Oh yeah. Spark one up (before you get in your car of course) and then put in Dark Side of the Moon in 5.1 Dolby Digital. It will blow you away.

Ge0
Is that available in 5.1 outside of SACD? I own it on SACD - but have only seen it on SACD.

Or are you telling me that I never realized our cars would play SACD?!
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Is that available in 5.1 outside of SACD? I own it on SACD - but have only seen it on SACD.

Or are you telling me that I never realized our cars would play SACD?!
My first multi-channel music purchase:
229377


Sorry to burst your bubble. DVD video in 5.1 channel Dolby Digital. The good news is that the PCM will play DVD Audio discs. We all know that is a superior format over SACD :)

Ok. Ok. I will play nice. Cheers,

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What a nice thread and thanks for the expert advice from all...
I've sub'd to Tidal Premium (supposedly "lossless" for a couple of years based on reviews in "audiophile" mags. So far, not disappointed. NB: I've also pay Spotify every month.
Background: Grew up listening the Beatles/Rolling Stones on Dad's Marantz/McIntosh/JBL gear, so blame him. I listen to as much live acoustic music as I can. Playing, drums I know what transients (cymbals) are supposed to sound like). Most importantly, I can, even now on my 69th birthday (TODAY), hear and localize the call of golden and ruby crowned kinglets (They're birds) out in the woods.
So, from a fidelity POV, Tidal is worth a look. I've never felt constrained on material. Fr'instance...couple of weeks ago we listened to a very gifted pianist, Jan Lisiecki, deliver a heck of a solo piano recital featuring (to me) unknown works by Mendelsohn. Never having been a huge fan of the Romantic ear, I was nevertheless BLOWN AWAY by the performance. Double encore. RE: Piano Recital Series Archives | Duke Performances
Arriving home, I searched Tidal and found the pieces on the program I'd just heard.
The beauty is that I downloaded the albums (Deutsche Gramophon) onto my LG v50, the beauty of which (and this is KEY!) is that it's an audiophile device masquerading as phone! Look it up, and whatever "Quad DAC" means. Anyway, it sounds nice. As they say, garbage in...garbage out.
So...on the fence? check Tidal premium and download away in "lossless." I've NEVER been NOT able to find the jazz, folk, alt Country (lookin' at you James McMurtry!) and even our local artists. Oh, and run it out of your LG v50? I'd hope it would "translate" through the Bose system with the tweaks provided on this thread.
FP
PS (Promise...no more "Mid-Fi" for the masses" references...promise.
PPS: Good work on the site, exxxpecially the spell czech funktion!
 

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Recently riding with my teenage nephew with the Bose on, he wanted to listen to Hip Hop Nation on SiriusXM. For a stock system and sub, it really bumps. Enough to impress even a teenager with the bass. Now he wants a Macan ha. Of course teenagers you can sell 'em anything if it has a good stereo.

I keep my setup always around Bass +7 and treble -3, and it doesn't sound like I'm listening to music underwater. Too much treble always seems irritatingly hot to my ears. Prefer the highs toned down some, and lots of bass. I've had many Bose systems in other cars before, and they all were pretty much terrible, especially the 2000s version in various Euro cars. The BMW 3-series cars especially were almost embarrassingly bad, though that might have been a Harmon Kardon system. As mentioned, Bose puts together what the budget allows them. Manufacturers got away with big markups on cheap systems for many many years. Not so much with this setup.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
The BMW 3-series cars especially were almost embarrassingly bad, though that might have been a Harmon Kardon system. As mentioned, Bose puts together what the budget allows them. Manufacturers got away with big markups on cheap systems for many many years. Not so much with this setup.
I know a few folks who work at Harman's R&D center. Believe me when I say they have some pretty smart people designing some nice equipment. I was very pleased with the Harman system in my Jeep Grand Cherokee. I just added a bigger sub to suit my taste. The Bose system in my Macan is a good example of them improving quality and attempting to keep up.

Ge0
 

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I know a few folks who work at Harman's R&D center. Believe me when I say they have some pretty smart people designing some nice equipment. I was very pleased with the Harman system in my Jeep Grand Cherokee. I just added a bigger sub to suit my taste. The Bose system in my Macan is a good example of them improving quality and attempting to keep up.

Ge0
Thanks for the interesting analysis, it's fun to see the data. Since you have some relationships at Harman, perhaps you can get the OEM suppliers to step it up a little on driver quality? It really wouldn't take much. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Thanks for the interesting analysis, it's fun to see the data. Since you have some relationships at Harman, perhaps you can get the OEM suppliers to step it up a little on driver quality? It really wouldn't take much. :)
I'll give you a contact in their purchasing department. She is a real tiger to deal with :)

Seriously though. It would be interesting to see just how good or bad their factory drivers are in comparison to drivers we consider mid-grade. Anyone have a Klippel analyzer laying around?

Ge0
 

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Discussion Starter #35 (Edited)
Thanks for the interesting analysis, it's fun to see the data. Since you have some relationships at Harman, perhaps you can get the OEM suppliers to step it up a little on driver quality? It really wouldn't take much. :)
I'm having fun with this. Forgive me if I am being cheeky. If 98% of the buyers of these vehicles think the Harman or Bose systems sound great. What are the suppliers incentive to spend more money to improve quality for 2% of the odd ball crowd like us. In addition to that, those who are heavily into car audio replace stock speakers with $1000+ solutions anyways. So this leaves us lowly subjects at 1%. As a business owner would this be a good investment for you?

The bigger question is why do Morel Supremo or Focal Flax wooden cone speakers cost $3000 a set? This is far to the other extreme. It probably costs them $50 a set to produce. They are paying off tooling and engineering labor to roll the cost into piece price plus a hefty profit. Harman and Bose produce hellaciously higher volumes and as a result can cut cost down. Is the performance difference between the ultra high end and OEM grade speaker worth the difference in SQ? Heck no. A web site like DIYMA was created to dis-spell these myths and show you that a $40 Dayton Audio, Vifa, Sea's, or Peerless driver can perform to high expectations for a fraction of the cost. It's not about bragging rights. It's about value proposition...

Expel the overly priced exotic branded high end car audio solutions. Expel even lesser main stream solutions like Fosgate, MTX, and Kicker. What can you do on a layman's budget? I am certain you will be surprised! Investigate. Visit DIYMobileAudio to understand what you can accomplish on a given budget.

FYI: DIYMA's purpose is to prove that you can get great sound quality that far beats popular cost. I suggest you visit and hear what a few folks have to say. I find it fun... learn...

Ge0
 

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NOW!!! Do yourself a favor and find some true multi-channel Dolby 5.1 or DVD audio discs of your favorite music and give this a try. Ebay is a good source. There may be others.

This is where the Bose system shines. It will blow you away with its accuracy. My "go to" reference is Miles Davis Kind of Blue in DVD audio. Holy crap does this sound real on this system. This is the prime example of what multi-channel audio can offer. Unfortunately multi-channel high end media solutions failed. Only a handful of people want them. 90% of the public is fine listening to Pandora streamed in 2 channels at 60KBPS.

OK. I went overboard. I agree with your initial assessment. However, I highly recommend you try some quality multi-channel source music :)

Ge0
Finally got around to looking through my old CD's looking for a multi channel CD or DVD and found Steely Dan's Gaucho album that I recalled I had. It's a 'dts 20 Bit / 5.1 Channel" disc. From the description in the case it is a "compact disc from DTS...encoded with a discrete 5.1 channel surround mix that is a direct 20 bit transfer from the original multi-channel master tape." Unfortunately it wont play using the Macan's CD player. I did get it to play on my home Blue Ray surround system. Sounds real good. I've found DVD audio discs on various sites but not of albums that I was real interested in. If I look enough I should find something.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Finally got around to looking through my old CD's looking for a multi channel CD or DVD and found Steely Dan's Gaucho album that I recalled I had. It's a 'dts 20 Bit / 5.1 Channel" disc. From the description in the case it is a "compact disc from DTS...encoded with a discrete 5.1 channel surround mix that is a direct 20 bit transfer from the original multi-channel master tape." Unfortunately it wont play using the Macan's CD player. I did get it to play on my home Blue Ray surround system. Sounds real good. I've found DVD audio discs on various sites but not of albums that I was real interested in. If I look enough I should find something.
I'll take note of that. The Macan will play Dolby Digital 5.1 encoded music but not DTS 5.1 encoded. Hmmm. They are both common / competing standards. Interesting how Porsche chose not to support. I suspect due to additional royalities involved...

Geo
 

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is there a recommended config for the system that produces "ideal" sound? If so, care to share those sound option selections? Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter #39
is there a recommended config for the system that produces "ideal" sound? If so, care to share those sound option selections? Thanks!
To me it's not just a matter of adjusting some tone controls. The factory Bose tweeters are garbage.

Follow the advice of many others on this forum. Switch out the factory dash tweeters. This made a huge difference in how the system sounded. The tweets I installed are very expensive. I probably would not have gone that route if I did not already own them. However, many members here have used the Burmester tweets from the rear door with a lot of success. Try that.

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Thank you for taking the time to test and post your findings! I find this very interesting!

Thanks again!
 
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