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A little birdie shared the following :

1) there is a stop production on 718's . The next ones will be EV or if not close enough to it .

2)Current inventory 718 GTS cars are being discounted big time. If you love the current 718 GTS this is the time to buy it .

3) 992 cars will quickly move in the direction of hybrid . In fact the S and and 4S being released are equipped to embrace the hybrid components

4) The last Ice car expected is a Gt4 Cayman . This might be a collector car (just my opinion) .

5) A Macan GTS.2 is not anticipated . A Turbo is a real possibility next year.

6) Disclaimer .. the above are not absolutes but are worth keeping in mind .


It's (EV cars ) happening .
The Taycan is expected soon .

So................... Not much more to say.

.
 

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Glad I have a 2017 ICE Macan GTS and a 2019 ICE 718 GTS Boxster.

I will not embrace EV anytime soon, I have a 2019 Diesel Denali and a 2009 Corvette and just ordered a 2019 Corvette Convertible 650HP.

I do not think the infrastructure is in place to allow this transition this soon, IMHO this is going to hurt Porsche big time in sales.

The used car market just got 25% stronger IMHO>

What a shame.............:crying:
 

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Glad I have a 2017 ICE Macan GTS and a 2019 ICE 718 GTS Boxster.

I will not embrace EV anytime soon, I have a 2019 Diesel Denali and a 2009 Corvette and just ordered a 2019 Corvette Convertible 650HP.

I do not think the infrastructure is in place to allow this transition this soon, IMHO this is going to hurt Porsche big time in sales.

The used car market just got 25% stronger IMHO>

What a shame.............:crying:


Me too. Not that I have anything against EV; I embrace the changes.... but MY PERSONAL PREFERENCE is still combustion and exhaust notes. One of my favorite memories forever etched into my neural network? The smell of race fuel and motorcycles (I’m sure cars are the same) at the track as the sun rises... it makes the hair on my arms stand up just writing those words. Just kinda stinks to think that one day, kids will never know what that is like. Ah well, such is life I suppose.




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A little birdie shared the following :

1) there is a stop production on 718's . The next ones will be EV or if not close enough to it .

2)Current inventory 718 GTS cars are being discounted big time. If you love the current 718 GTS this is the time to buy it .

3) 992 cars will quickly move in the direction of hybrid . In fact the S and and 4S being released are equipped to embrace the hybrid components

4) The last Ice car expected is a Gt4 Cayman . This might be a collector car (just my opinion) .

5) A Macan GTS.2 is not anticipated . A Turbo is a real possibility next year.

6) Disclaimer .. the above are not absolutes but are worth keeping in mind .


It's (EV cars ) happening .
The Taycan is expected soon .
Agree

1) I have not heard about the stop order but the rest is true. Autocar has good resources, usually Porsche itself https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/2022-porsche-boxster-and-cayman-get-hybrid-and-ev-options

EV prototypes are running. But here is the key point: EVs under PPE architecture. Hybrids under old 718. Both sold at the same time like the EV Macan. Notice both the EV 718 and the Macan are both under the same PPE architecture. That's seems to be new.

2.) Don't know anything about that.

3.) Confirmed. P. 11 of the 2018 Porsche Annual Report. 992 is hybrid read.
Confirmed per sources 718 moving to the same 992 concept for hybrids. In other words, the EVs will be under the PPE architecture while the co-existing hybrids running the old, but updated body styles to handle the hybrid engine. Thats why this seems to say.

4). I kind of doubt that. I expect it will be a 911. That could be the dealer working up sales - Come buy this! End of an era! But maybe or maybe not.

5.) What would be the point of it? Why have four trim levels (base, S, GTS, and Turbo) AND EV when the whole point is to wean the buyers away from ICE. This sounds reasonable.

6.) EVs. For those that don't believe it, read the press release. Its now old news. https://newsroom.porsche.com/fallback/en/2019/company/porsche-taycan-electric-sports-car-blume-interview-17185.html Since Porsche is just one brand of VAG, VAG is going to get big fines on top of their already massive dieselgate fines if they can't get their numbers down.

Yeah, all seems reasonable although the GT4 things sounds shaky to me.

BTW, you might want to read Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - - Page1 First I heard about this is there is any truth to it.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Agree



5.) What would be the point of it? Why have four trim levels (base, S, GTS, and Turbo) AND EV when the whole point is to wean the buyers away from ICE. This sounds reasonable.

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I feel displaced . I agree with you. Yet we are not in EV entirely and even when it happens the evolution process won't be like with ICE cars . My guess is that it will be faster because Porsche will make mistakes . In fact look at the biggest complaints at present : 1) Tech glitches and 2) quality control . Electric cars rely on modern tech and 100K Porsches just don't mix. Calling it "Mission E" does nothing except aggrandize their hopes . So does Porsche plan to, outrun Corvettes and Vipers at the ring in this modern golf cart ? And can they pull 4 year 50K warranty and retool every shop ? The way I see it .. they have to "wean" because an overnight change would be drastic.

In the meantime ... we (the buyer) are in limbo . The cars are changing. We know where they are headed . Anything made now becomes an expensive pacifier because its not what they REALLY want to shove to us.

SO.... LIMBO .
 

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I feel displaced . I agree with you. Yet we are not in EV entirely and even when it happens the evolution process won't be like with ICE cars . My guess is that it will be faster because Porsche will make mistakes . In fact look at the biggest complaints at present : 1) Tech glitches and 2) quality control . Electric cars rely on modern tech and 100K Porsches just don't mix. Calling it "Mission E" does nothing except aggrandize their hopes . So does Porsche plan to, outrun Corvettes and Vipers at the ring in this modern golf cart ? And can they pull 4 year 50K warranty and retool every shop ? The way I see it .. they have to "wean" because an overnight change would be drastic.

In the meantime ... we (the buyer) are in limbo . The cars are changing. We know where they are headed . Anything made now becomes an expensive pacifier because its not what they REALLY want to shove to us.

SO.... LIMBO .

The new 2019 ZR1 is 755HP, all forged internals, its an absolute monster.

My new 2019 Z06 is a 650HP car, its a monster as well.

A true enthusiast that wants the exhaust note, the freedom and range to drive Rt. 66 or go anywhere in their ICE Powered car or truck is not easily going to embrace anything EV.

My wife has a close friend who got rid of her TESLA due to lack of EV Stations or she had to take a different route ( often times longer ) to stop and charge the batteries up, due to lack of EV infrastructure.

I can see a world with aggravated EV Drivers being late everywhere because they can't fill up in 5 mins and have to wait 5 hours to charge up with a 220 home plug or 24 hours with a 110 trickle charger.

Then we have to get past the super high expense of the batteries when needing a replacement...........>:D

Its all pie in the sky nonsense, I am 50, I bet when I am 70 EV is still struggling to be popular, and anyone who is a politician its a third rail to screw with someones vehicle and their freedom to drive !!!
 

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Its all pie in the sky nonsense, I am 50, I bet when I am 70 EV is still struggling to be popular, and anyone who is a politician its a third rail to screw with someones vehicle and their freedom to drive !!!
I'll take that bet.

Every year the charging infrastructure gets larger, charging times diminish, ranges increase, and more & more companies keep jumping on the EV bandwagon with improved vehicles, more efficient batteries, and higher rate chargers. In 20 years, vehicle charging stations will be common place in new homes. Today technology exists for wireless induction units that can be built right in the driveway...cordless charging like a cell phone.

https://www.fleetcarma.com/soon-wireless-electric-vehicle-charging-coming/

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/28/business/gm-bechtel-electric-car-charging-stations/index.html

Compare for instance the evolution we have experienced with ICE vehicles over the past 20 years. The EV environment with improve at even a faster rate.
 

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I'll take that bet.

Every year the charging infrastructure gets larger, charging times diminish, ranges increase, and more & more companies keep jumping on the EV bandwagon with improved vehicles, more efficient batteries, and higher rate chargers. In 20 years, vehicle charging stations will be common place in new homes. Today technology exists for wireless induction units that can be built right in the driveway...cordless charging like a cell phone.

https://www.fleetcarma.com/soon-wireless-electric-vehicle-charging-coming/

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/28/business/gm-bechtel-electric-car-charging-stations/index.html

Compare for instance the evolution we have experienced with ICE vehicles over the past 20 years. The EV environment with improve at even a faster rate.

LOL, tell that to the farmer in the midwest and the guy in South Dakota who has an EV @ -20 and it range is 25% of what it is at 70 degrees.

Convince the purist that not hearing an engine or listening to the sound it makes is going to pacify that person.

Try eliminating the hundreds of millions of ICE Vehicles that people love and cherish, and watch the peasants rise up with their pitchforks and torches against that decision.

Again, you are free to embrace that technology, I am hopeful that in the next 25 years it stays 10% or less of the market, where certain segments of society that want that can have it and the rest of us are left alone to drive ICE Vehicles.

;)

Too bad that TESLA's free wireless energy was bottled up and throw in a deep dark hole by the FEDS and the Oil Companies, you cannot have free anything, if its not taxed, regulated and befitting the political class and the globalists then its deemed illegal or unwanted and shelved for all eternity.


https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact
 

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LOL, tell that to the farmer in the midwest and the guy in South Dakota who has an EV @ -20 and it range is 25% of what it is at 70 degrees.
If EV ranges keep improving to the point where charging time in minimal and range is greater than the average ICE vehicle, the change in range due to temperature will be less of an issue.

Convince the purist that not hearing an engine or listening to the sound it makes is going to pacify that person.
This won't be an issue for the future generations who grow up with electric vehicles.

Try eliminating the hundreds of millions of ICE Vehicles that people love and cherish, and watch the peasants rise up with their pitchforks and torches against that decision.
In time ICE vehicles will just slowly fade away and be less economically feasible for the general public like other outdated technology.
 

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A little birdie shared the following :

2)Current inventory 718 GTS cars are being discounted big time. If you love the current 718 GTS this is the time to buy it .
Can you quantify this in terms of % off of MSRP? I've heard these cars were trading at 11-12% below for a long while now. Are you now suggesting I should expect 17-18%, or even better, more?! I wonder what this will do to the used market.
 

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I feel displaced . I agree with you. Yet we are not in EV entirely and even when it happens the evolution process won't be like with ICE cars . .
Not in the US. In EU, it will be. Porsche has recognized they can't just start selling EVs on Oct 1. So they announced they will sell an EV model, Taycan, then jointly EV and ICE Macans and 718. And then ICE will go away. But it is going away. The cannot be viably financially paying huge fines otherwise.

How they fair in the US is entirely different. I expect early adopters to jump on the Taycans. We'll see about Macans. But in the long run, I suspect the "Porsche" aura, its prestige from racing, will be over.
 

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Not in the US. In EU, it will be. Porsche has recognized they can't just start selling EVs on Oct 1. So they announced they will sell an EV model, Taycan, then jointly EV and ICE Macans and 718. And then ICE will go away. But it is going away. The cannot be viably financially paying huge fines otherwise.



How they fair in the US is entirely different. I expect early adopters to jump on the Taycans. We'll see about Macans. But in the long run, I suspect the "Porsche" aura, its prestige from racing, will be over.


^^^^This. Was just talking shop with a buddy yesterday about (all) of this. I said the exact same thing... “Porsche, as the purists know it, will no longer exist probably 15-20 years from now.” My guess is they are banking on the “new” generation of wealthy to buy EV performance vehicles. They know we ICE dinosaurs are a dying breed, and they are going to sacrifice the old for the new. Just how the world works I suppose...


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Every year the charging infrastructure gets larger, charging times diminish, ranges increase, and more & more companies keep jumping on the EV bandwagon with improved vehicles, more efficient batteries, and higher rate chargers. In 20 years, vehicle charging stations will be common place in new homes.
Any large scale adaption in the US leading to near 100% saturation of the market faces tremendous barriers. If the warming problem went away due to future tech, such as giant CO2 scrubbers, CO2 sequestration, etc, the problem would be alleviated. Read up on CO2 sequestration technologies. More is happening all the time. Here are some of the issues mass adoption of EVs face in the US.

Human Nature:

- Patience - It began with Dominos 30 minute pizza or the pizza was free. It then migrated to Amazon's 2 day, and now 1 day delivery. Today, society has ingrained - instant satisfaction. There is no way 350,000,000 Americans will accept waiting any time for anything. Their attention spans are measured in seconds. News is parceled out in sound bites. Three minutes at a gas station is an eternity. You're going to need to get those charging times WAY down.

- Convenience – No one goes out of the way for anything. I can order about anything from anywhere in the world, a far cry from 40 years ago. If Americans can’t find that 3 min charge EVERYWHERE they can find a gas station today, no waiting, it won’t happen. It simply won’t be accepted. And no, every house will never have charging facilities. Not everyone has a garage. Many live in townhouses, row houses, three level homes, and apartments.

Economics

- Prices – EV prices are ridiculously high. Conceivably they can come down via economies of scale but that mean to be accepted, the human nature problems have to be solved first. But they need to sell $20,000 EVs just like they sell $20,000 cars today, and A LOT of them. Prices can come down with economies of scale but for that to happen, you need to convince the public they will be safe, charge, anywhere, anytime.

- Jobs – If EVs were mandated, what happens to the millions of independents that lose their jobs? Who pays for their unemployment, welfare, etc? How much does the country lose? What is the ratio of mechanics today vs EV "mechanics" tomorrow?

Legacy Base

- Number of vehicles - Those that like to tell you how good EVs are doing don’t seem to say the whole story. If they tell you EV sales rose 70%, then 70% of nothing is still nothing. In 2018 2.1% of cars sold in the US were EVs, Far more important, .45% of vehicles on the road are EVs. There are over 270,000,000 cars on the road. EVs aren’t just “in the noise”. They are dust on the floor not worth mentioning. Funny how they don't discuss that.

- Age of vehicles - In 2017 the average age of a car on the road was 11.7 years. I know in this forum people talk about they trade in every 3 or 4 years. You do realize that’s not real life? It used to be cars were poorly made with little warranty. Today, particularly the Japanese cars, easily go 200 – 300K easily. Just because the wealthy want to dump a car in 4 years that’s not how the majority of people live, as evidence from the data. Don’t even think about “cash for clunkers” which seems to have been a failure. Its not 1965 anymore. Just look at the graphs. They keep going up and up and up. It could take generations for these cars to disappear.

This isn’t like the change from horses to gas. People RUSHED to the "horseless carriage" because THEY WANTED to get rid of the horses. Those that argue EVs will rapidly evolve pointing to gasoline replacing the horse present a false comparison. Read up on the horse manure problems of London, and the big cities. The cities were swimming in, well swimming in dead carcasses and manure. Gasoline infrastructure rapidly took over because people wanted it to happen. But all this pales in comparison to the most fundamental of issues, resources. The US has none. Its as simple as that. Watch, this was on 60 minutes last night, made in 2015.


Today, after being beaten up by OPEC in the 70s, ending the Cold War in 1990, the US is finally about Energy Independent. And you think it will now give all that up to become dependent on the Congo and other foreign countries? What did Japan do to ensure it had natural resources? What did Germany do? Nobody gives up energy independence for energy dependence.
 

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LOL, tell that to the farmer in the midwest and the guy in South Dakota who has an EV @ -20 and it range is 25% of what it is at 70 degrees.

Convince the purist that not hearing an engine or listening to the sound it makes is going to pacify that person.

Try eliminating the hundreds of millions of ICE Vehicles that people love and cherish, and watch the peasants rise up with their pitchforks and torches against that decision.

Again, you are free to embrace that technology, I am hopeful that in the next 25 years it stays 10% or less of the market, where certain segments of society that want that can have it and the rest of us are left alone to drive ICE Vehicles.

;)
The farmer and the 'purist' are exceptions.

An affordable car that requires no gas and little maintenance is an easy sell.

No one cares what it sounds like. No one cares what makes it go. There will be no uprising.
 

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I'm reading this slightly differently. There's a lot of talk in the link grim posted about mild hybrids. Is not a mild hybrid ICE? I interpret some (or most) talk about car manufacturers "eliminating" ICE to really mean eliminating ICE-only vehicles. A mild hybrid depends entirely on its ICE to move. A plug-in hybrid can travel only short distances on electricity and depends on its ICE to be at all usable. This all might take a longggg time.
 

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Three minutes at a gas station is an eternity. You're going to need to get those charging times WAY down.
Most people do 99.9% of their daily driving within charging range of a Tesla's full charge. Two-thirds of Americans have garages where they can charge their cars overnight. Two-car families can easily buy one BEV, with the other being a PHEV or ICE-only vehicle for longer trips. Most people with BEVs are simply "topping" off their charge every night, not running their BEVs dry every day of commuting and doing errands.


- Convenience – No one goes out of the way for anything. I can order about anything from anywhere in the world, a far cry from 40 years ago. If Americans can’t find that 3 min charge EVERYWHERE they can find a gas station today, no waiting, it won’t happen. It simply won’t be accepted. And no, every house will never have charging facilities. Not everyone has a garage. Many live in townhouses, row houses, three level homes, and apartments.
fully agree!


- Jobs – If EVs were mandated, what happens to the millions of independents that lose their jobs? Who pays for their unemployment, welfare, etc? How much does the country lose? What is the ratio of mechanics today vs EV "mechanics" tomorrow?
Just like with all those people who used to take care of horses, people will find other things to do...


There are over 270,000,000 cars on the road. EVs aren’t just “in the noise”. They are dust on the floor not worth mentioning.
Here in the northeastern US, and on the west coast, EVs are everywhere. It's rare for me to drive a half mile in the Boston area and not see at least a half-dozen EVs. True, the middle of America doesn't have many. But demand Europe and China will push EVs in technology and price -- to make their range better and their buying cost lower -- quickly.


Gasoline infrastructure rapidly took over because people wanted it to happen. But all this pales in comparison to the most fundamental of issues, resources. The US has none.
Lots of people want cleaner air. Exhaust from cars, trucks, and buses is horrible ... Walk or bicycle down any road with traffic, and you'll notice the unpleasant fumes. Gasoline stations are horrible; who likes to go to a gas station, like ever? (ok, maybe if you own one, or have a friend or family that works at one... but otherwise, nobody likes gas stations.. they're probably the worst place that most people have to visit on a regular basis in their daily lives.).

I own a PHEV. I do not miss the sound of the engine when the electric motor (only) is on. In fact, the quiet is really nice with electric-only motors running your car. I still have to go to a gas station once every 5-6 weeks on average, but that's down from once a week when my daily driver was an ICE-only car. It's wonderful to just plug in every night in my garage and not have to worry about getting gasoline for weeks! And with the regenerative brakes, EVs (and even mild hybrids) can go 100k-200k miles without replacing brakes/rotors. How nice is that? Not to mention the savings in maintenance that you don't need if you don't have an ICE to keep up; factor that cost into your purchase price, and you may find that even today buying an EV is way cheaper than buying an ICE-only car if you keep it for 10 years or more.
 

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I'm reading this slightly differently. There's a lot of talk in the link grim posted about mild hybrids. Is not a mild hybrid ICE? I interpret some (or most) talk about car manufacturers "eliminating" ICE to really mean eliminating ICE-only vehicles. A mild hybrid depends entirely on its ICE to move. A plug-in hybrid can travel only short distances on electricity and depends on its ICE to be at all usable. This all might take a longggg time.

As I wrote in my comments to grim, above, I have a PHEV, and I drive mostly in all-electric mode. My daily commute is 13 miles each way. I charge fully in my garage every night. I can get up to 25 miles on a single charge, which covers most of my daily driving. (I got a PHEV to do just this, while still having the comfort of knowing I can go long distances without having to find charging stations away from home.) I do not depend on the ICE in my Panamera E-Hybrid for the car "to be at all usable", as you state. I often go close to a week without the ICE ever coming on, and I drive it daily. Porsche is supposedly going to be increasing the range in its E-Hybrids next year. I sure would like 50-100 miles of all-electric range in a PHEV; that would be a perfect situation for me. (There are some cars like this already, but not at the level of a Porsche.)
 

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I do not depend on the ICE in my Panamera E-Hybrid for the car "to be at all usable", as you state. I often go close to a week without the ICE ever coming on, and I drive it daily.

1. I acknowledge that for a (small) minority of car owners, the electric range of a PHEV is acceptable, and the range of a pure EV is also acceptable.
2. I acknowledge that the ranges will increase over the next few years so they will become acceptable to more and more people, and also that the recharge options for EVs will gradually improve.
3. As far as EV's: range anxiety is a thing.
4. You and I might have slightly different definitions of "usable." The flip side of your comment above is once a week your ICE comes on. That fits my definition of not being usable without the ICE.
 
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