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BTW, the Teddy Roosevelt statue referred to shows people STANDING on either side of the horse - not kneeling. (I still do not see how they'reconsidered "subservient").
When I first mentioned this, I never knew the statue existed. After looking at it, I get the point.

People need to put these statues like this, NOT the confederate generals, but like this one, in historical perspective. TR basically started the NPS and was a huge proponent of conservation, parks, wildlife. He was also a big game hunter. In light of the time, Africa was being "opened up. Just look at all the Tarzan movies, Johnny Weissmuller, Maureen O'Hara from the 30s. I read as a big game hunter, as perceived IN ITS TIME, the "hero" is astride a horse. The black statue could be a porter on a big game hunt. Go watch an old Tarzan movie. Are they coming after Tarzan next? I'm not quite sure about the Native American but he is NOT on a horse. Then again, it was the Europeans, made the Spaniards? That brought the horse to the plains. Otherwise they had no horses. I don't know but I see the point about why its offensive.
 

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I am calling BULLSHIT ! All of a sudden there's this push to "preserve history" . Then put it in a museum !!! It's no sweat off your butt whether someone else cares or finds it relevant . It's you who cares .

The reason is very simple . I always wondered why someone would want to remain in a ghetto . After all he could move , rent a place, and not have to worry about drive by shootings . He stays because even when he leaves you have that little statue to remind him of where his place is . Like on his knees next to Teddy Roosevelt on a big horse , It's your way of KEEPING him in the ghetto . And the few who do leave and make a success are constantly reminded every time they look at it that you will never really accept them .You will never really allow them to integrate . This has NOTHING to do with history and everything to do with insecurity .

That's why when you saw all those people in the streets and the president "inspecting" his bunker it scared you . It scares you to think you'd have to give it up . This time around they have white people agreeing with them . So are the corporations .

Sure here on a Porsche forum of older white guys (like me) I am a minority because I am not afraid to compete with anyone . You have no problem that a black person has a good chance of kicking your ass in certain sports but you have a huge problem with them really becoming part of your community with the same level of education and respect.,

So you fight for that statue and this time they are going to win . And next it will be women and after that it will be someone else who wants to play on equal turf . Then if you really have the skill you wouldn't be so scared. That's why you love the cops who beat them down because with their gun and badge the uneducated and poor don't stand a chance . In contrast white privalege kids have attorney's and when they screw up they have a real shot at "case dismissed" !! And DUI . Ha!! That;'s just negotiation with a good traffic attorney .. no points . no jail , no shot in the back !!

You'll know in November if there's more off them or you . You'll have your answer soon enough.
I’ll assume COVID stresses have worn you down, along with millions of others. Get outdoors. Be kind to yourself. Find someone to share laughs and smiles.

You obviously don’t know us. You don’t know how we live or what we value. I worked, live, worship and play with people of all races. We laugh and encourage one another, facing tough times together. We welcome newcomers of all races into our neighborhoods and our lives. We value safety, security, and the rule of law. We deplore tragedies like the thug cop in Minneapolis. We equally deplore the daily ”mass” murders in places like Chicago, with nobody speaking out against it. We’re saddened by broken families and concerned with failing public education. We realize people are fallible, that organizations sometimes make hiring mistakes because organizations are run by fallable humans. We value history. It tells us how we got here and a lot about where we’re going. We love and respect this great country and the opportunities it offers (partly because we understand history). We reject political correctness, especially trotting out the racist label anytime facts and data become inconvenient. We try to live with hope and joy, although 2020 has been a challenge (so far).

The silent majority exists among all races. They’re repulsed, not swayed by loud orgies of anarchy.
 

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Regarding New York, having the Governor and Mayor they have I would not be surprised if they change the name of the State and City to something very silly. They will probably remove the Statue of Liberty because they will find some sort of problem with it.
Total projection....not even worth commenting on.
 

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I am calling BULLSHIT ! All of a sudden there's this push to "preserve history" . Then put it in a museum !!! It's no sweat off your butt whether someone else cares or finds it relevant . It's you who cares .
There is NO doubt the Confederates were traitors to their country. Just like the inhabitants of the 13 original Colonies were TRAITORS to the Crown. Every one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence KNEW that if caught, it was high treason and they would be hung, drawn, and quartered. This is US History 101. I don't get the point of confederate statues, never knew they existed - then again I'm from the North, and if I saw any, would never known who they were. It was 150 year old history. I'm speaking of the Civil War being old US history.

Now who put them up? Most went up in the early part of the 20th century by who? From a previous entry, see the Civil War in Art and Memory p. 163 Lee and Jackson typified gallantry, strength of convictions, etc etc etc The mayor said they were inspirational and thought Americans should act like Jackson being a "stonewall". Who was the mayor and what does he have to do with today? Did you look it up?

If a confederate statue is on public property paid by public funds, who paid for it? Whatever the locality taxes are paid for it. WHO put the officials in charge of to allocate the funds? The PEOPLE of the locality did. IMO, they should NEVER have been put up. Who puts up monuments to traitors? Did the British put monuments up to Washington, Hancock, Adams?

You might want to read


The is a Harvard History Professor, a Pulitzer Prize winner, in a recent interview on the monuments.

What do you say to those who argue that the removal of such statues in prominent public settings dishonors the memory of those who died fighting for the Confederacy?

there are other places for that — on battlefields and cemeteries. The Confederates lost the war, the rebellion. The victors, the thousands of soldiers — black and white — in the armed forces of the United States, died to protect this country. I think it dishonors them

What are your thoughts on a separate museum for such statues?

people I know who work in museums tear their hair out about this suggestion, that somehow, we’re going to ship all these Confederate monuments off to the lucky museum that has to find a place to put them.

I think she's right. If on public property, owned by governments, store them or put in National Historic Battlefields. Never touch a cemetery marker. I completely disagree with doing this via violence. It should be done in a legal manner.
 

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I am calling BULLSHIT ! All of a sudden there's this push to "preserve history" . Then put it in a museum !!! It's no sweat off your butt whether someone else cares or finds it relevant . It's you who cares.
I totally agree. Keeping Confederate statues up on tax payers public property is a dog whistle under the guise of "Preserving History".

Case in point: . What moral person would want to glorify members of the Southern Confederacy who started a civil war (Fort Sumter, South Carolina on April 12, 1861) to secede from the Union and preserve slavery?

Those statues should not be destroyed though, but be placed in a museum to remind people of this country's dark history....with the hope of never repeating it.
 
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I honestly never thought twice about all the confederate statues around our capitol building.
One of them a 75 foot monument nevertheless.
To me it was just a tribute to the south and now it's gone.
I get why and I'm ok with it.

I just hope they leave the cannons. I like the cannons.
 

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You obviously don’t know us. You don’t know how we live or what we value. I worked, live, worship and play with people of all races. We laugh and encourage one another, facing tough times together. We welcome newcomers of all races into our neighborhoods and our lives. We value safety, security, and the rule of law. We deplore tragedies like the thug cop in Minneapolis. We equally deplore the daily ”mass” murders in places like Chicago, with nobody speaking out against it. We’re saddened by broken families and concerned with failing public education. We realize people are fallible, that organizations sometimes make hiring mistakes because organizations are run by fallable humans. We value history. It tells us how we got here and a lot about where we’re going. We love and respect this great country and the opportunities it offers (partly because we understand history). We reject political correctness, especially trotting out the racist label anytime facts and data become inconvenient. We try to live with hope and joy, although 2020 has been a challenge (so far).
And yet you people can't be bothered to wear a mask in public because it's all just a hoax and an attack of your Constitutional rights....

;)
 
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I honestly never thought twice about all the confederate statues around our capitol building.
One of them a 75 foot monument nevertheless.
To me it was just a tribute to the south and now it's gone.
I get why and I'm ok with it.

I just hope they leave the cannons. I like the cannons.
When the little black child sees the statue he is reminded with a tangible object that at one time he was less.That is how it was for little black children in those times
Images of things like Tarzan or the movies of the 1930's are not relevant in his life, The death of George Floyd. however is relevant .When the little white child sees it a root is planted that merely perpetuates the racial problems seen in this country for the last 400 years . They both deserve better !!

Look at the age of most of the protestors . Look the white ones too . They are young people who want tomorrow to be different . Both Biden and Trump are old . So are most of the other politicians . We are old too. History is being written right now in this pandemic with these events which can paint a future that breaks the cycle of the past .
 

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And yet you people can't be bothered to wear a mask in public because it's all just a hoax and an attack of your Constitutional rights....

;)
Not true! I do wear a mask when required. Those are indoor spaces where distancing is difficult, but mostly I avoid those places since even a mask doesn’t magically make them safe.

But I do not join folks wearing masks outdoors, at a reasonable to long distance from the nearest human. That’s consistent with both the science and the fine print in the regulations. In the great outdoors a mask is just a symbolic gesture.
 

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This time around they have white people agreeing with them . You'll know in November if there's more off them or you . You'll have your answer soon enough.
"Deja Vu all over again" Y. Berra

In 68, there were two major assassinations. The damage from the riots far eclipsed today. The riots at the DNC convention is still infamous today. You could not be on any campus without some organic protest march happening every day, not for a month or two, but everyday for years. Try to study? LOL. To much noise outside. You remember those days? Remember the sit-in? Remember the protest? Remember the LEOs being called "pigs", Remember the tear gas?

Separate out those with legitimate grievances with the criminals and anarchists. Anarchists have always existed. Go look at some old Youtube videos. Who's protesting? Look at the videos from the other night in DC. Who is yelling in the faces of the cops, calling them Pigs? "Pig" is so 1968.

Being in a bubble, in an environment, thats all you know. Being in the university educational system, back then, what did you know? The SDS recruiting on campuses, What did the SDS want?

"racial equality" remained the cause celebre....

"transforming the system," "building alternative institutions," and "revolutionary potential" ...

Students were to start taking responsibility for their own education. By the fall of 1965, largely under SDS impetus, there were several "free universities" in operation: in Berkeley, SDS reopened the New School offering "'Marx and Freud,' 'A Radical Approach to Science,' 'Agencies of Social Change and the New Movements';


Free Education? Where have I heard that lately? If you lived in an educational bubble, that all you knew. Just like those who watch CNN/MSNBC live in a bubble and those that watch Fox live in another bubble. But here's a hint. Those bubbles, just like back then, is not the entire country.

After conventional civil rights tactics of peaceful pickets seemed to have failed, the Oakland, California, Stop the Draft Week ended in mass hit and run skirmishes with the police. The huge (100,000 people) October 21 March on the Pentagon saw hundreds arrested and injured. Night-time raids on draft offices began to spread.

SDS activists led an effort on the campuses called "Ten Days of Resistance" and local chapters cooperated with the Student Mobilization Committee in rallies, marches, sit-ins and teach-ins, and on April 18 in a one-day strike. About a million students stayed away from classes that day,


A million students didn't go to class?

students were "picking war, complicity, and racism ... and as tactics sit-ins and takeovers

Using sit-ins and takeovers? Any of that sound familiar? Deja Vu

their issues fell into one or more of four broad categories: (1) war-related issues such as opposition to ROTC, military or CIA recruitment, and military research, on campus; (2) student power issues including requests for a pass-fail grading system, beer sales on campus, no dormitory curfews, and a student voice in faculty hiring; (3) support for university employees; and (4) support for black students.[43]

Which brings us to 72. The War was hated by about the entire country. Did anyone actually LIKE the Vietnam War? Anyone? And those being shipped out to rice paddies couldn't vote! So up comes the 26th Amendment. If you can draft someone on their 18th birthday, send the into a jungle, then THEY get to vote who is sending them. What happened? Far left, for the time, candidate for President comes up, runs on

37% reduction in defense spending over three years;

replace the personal income tax exemption with a $1,000 tax credit as a minimum-income floor for every citizen in America, ... to replace the welfare bureaucracy a ... Its concept was similar to the negative income tax long advocated by economist Milton Friedman, and by the Nixon administration in the form of Daniel Patrick Moynihan's Family Assistance Plan, which called for a minimum family grant of $1,600 per year, later raised to $2,400.


Sounds like minimum guaranteed income.

What happened? They gave the vote to 18 year olds in 1971. How'd that work out? All those screaming college kids and early to mid-20 something grad students. The candidate was totally crushed with only one state voting for the candidate. One state. I doubt you will see such a landslide again.

Did you vote at 18 or 24? How many of us voted in our 20s? 55% did in 72 How many today? US Government census data. In 1972 when it was a matter of life and death for those being drafted. Do you remember the lottery?

My point? No one knows the future. But remember Pareto. Remember bubbles. What you see is the 80/20 rule in action. I hope the young do vote. They should. Its their future. Everyone should. But history doesn't bode well for that happening. Don't be surprised if they don't. History doesn't support it. Maybe they will, maybe they won't.

 

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When the little black child sees the statue he is reminded with a tangible object that at one time he was less.That is how it was for little black children in those times
Images of things like Tarzan or the movies of the 1930's are not relevant in his life,
True, my reference to Tarzan was for us. You knew who he was.

Look at the age of most of the protestors . Look the white ones too . They are young people who want tomorrow to be different .
Just like in 68 and 72. I've gone over that. And nothing changed. The young don't vote. The actual data shows that. Maybe they will in the future. Past performance is not indicative of future. But its a bad bet.

When you were 18 -29,

how many presidential elections did you vote in?
how many mid-term elections did you vote in?

BTW, don't say "this time is different". Hint, they said that too in the late 60s. But THIS time its different. We mean it. WE are the YOUNG. This is OUR time. PEACE Dude! Make Love not War. This is OUR future. No wars, equality for all, free education. See above.

What's new is old.

The mid-terms are more important in the sense that YOUR representative or Senator, represents you. Presidents are term limited. They come, they go. No one remembers who was President in say 1965. Who was it?

But your local Rep? Now thats where we get those "old" Politicians, and the people who do vote, not the young because they don't, but the people who do, usually keep the same person in office 30 - 50 years.

Exactly how do people making $175K/year, whatever a Rep makes these days, become millionaires? How does that happen when they have no other job?

Both Biden and Trump are old . So are most of the other politicians .
That sounds like a good case for term limits. Where have I heard that too?

Why do we have the same elected reps and Senators, sitting in the same seat, for 40 years? How does that make sense?

If you want change, start there.
 

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Total projection....not even worth commenting on.
The Statue of Liberty is a reach, "new" York is not. In fact, its worse.

the city was named after the Duke of York, who would become King James II of England.

Who's that?

the Duke of York, as Admiral of the Navy, annexed the Dutch colony of New Amsterdam (it was then renamed New York in his honour).

Read on to learn about the Duke of York.

The marque name? Read about the protest in 2009 and 2013 Spiegal.de has much more on it.
 

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The marque name? Read about the protest in 2009 and 2013 Spiegal.de has much more on it.
Maybe we need to torch our Macans? Should the Reichstag be burned (again)? But where does it all end? What does it accomplish?

"Porsche was a member of the Nazi party and enjoyed a good relationship with Adolf Hitler, designing tanks and vehicles for the war machine. During the Second World War his factories also used forced labour from concentration camps.

'The presence [of the exhibition] in Vratislavice is scandalous,' said Petr Jirasko, an opponent of the display. 'In Germany, the name Porsche is associated with cars. Shall we be the same in Vratislavice, and ignore his Nazi past?'

Mr Jirasko also pointed out that Porsche received an SS award from Heinrich Himmler and was honoured by the Nazi state."


Here's some irony closer to home. Last Friday a mob tore down a statue of President Grant in San Francisco. Today the Wall Street Journal shared the following (and more) from Frederick Douglass. Maybe his statues are next? The purge by the historically ignorant marches on.

From “U.S. Grant and the Colored People,” an 1872 campaign pamphlet by Frederick Douglass.
There are many dissemblers and falsifiers of the Greeley party in the South who are seeking the control of the colored voters, by declaring to them that President Grant is not, and never has been, a faithful and sincere friend of my race. . . . President Grant’s course, from the time he drew the sword in defense of the old Union in the Valley of the Mississippi till he sheathed it at Appomattox, and thence to this day in his reconstruction policy and his war upon the Ku-Klux, is without a deed or word to justify such an accusation. . . .
 

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I knew I was the minority viewpoint on this thread much like you are in your own backyard . Unlike you I have no problem voicing it . Why don't you try by sharing some of your comments and views from this thread with the people of Chaz ? I bet you sit in silence.
No, I am on Mayor Jennie Durkan's failures like a heat seeking missile. Plus our governor is shaped like a big bulls eye.
 
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