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Provide me empirical data from a reputable reviewer on how well the Atturo's perform then, I'll wait.
My data is 4 sets of Atturos on my last two Macans, an S and now Turbo........could not wait to burn thru the OEMs to get the Atturos......I have posted on this before, as have dozens of others........no wrecks, punctures, getting 25-30 k mileage and I drive hard, excellent on wet roads, confident handling, look great w/great tread pattern.......and I have had the 21's on both cars. Order thru SimpleTire w/ free shipping and my Indy mounts them.......they are the best kept secret, (although not a secret anymore) in tire industry. There is no way one person with zero personal experience can offset all the positive personal experiences on this board. Seeing and driving on them is believing!!!!
 

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Driven many cars with many different type of tires….I am 72. I have over 2000 miles driving on track experience and I am great friends with a performance tire/alignment/suspension guy. I just placed the stock sized 21’s Atturo 850’s on mine..have maybe 200 miles on them. I had Michelin latitudes. I run 38 psi up front and 38 psi in the rear. That is what works for my car.
These tires for everyday driving are better than the latitudes. If I increase tire pressure up front to 40 psi the immediate turn in is much much better….much better than the latitudes at 40 psi. They are quieter. I have no interest in exploring the maximum lateral grip, nor transitioning grip with these tires. Braking is great but will not explore maximum there either.
I remember with all the track guys thought Hanhook (sic) tires were junk too. They have since changed their minds. Perhaps this tire brand will go through the same dynamic optic.
 

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This thread got out of hand. So three things relevant to the tires and then the administrative things.

Two years ago I posted in this thread trying to help those out new to the brand. It amazes me that someone buys a $60,000 - $100,000 cars and does not put on the tires recommended by the people who made the car to save a few dollars. In this case, Porsche specifies the performance specs for tires for its vehicles, n specs. This is easy to research, go look it up. AFAIK, the same tire, n spec and not n spec are not the same internally. From 2016, insight on the Macan N spec


I also suggest reading @Fast_Eddie posts in this thread, all of them, from a tire engineer such as


Yes, N spec matters. That said, its your money and if you don't want the maximum performance for your car, well its your car, your money, you do what you want.

Second, Tire Tiers. Admittedly this is something I never heard of before. There is Top Tier gas. That is gasoline brands RECOMMENDED by car makers for use in their vehicles. Its not the same thing as N Specs in that N Specs are SPECIFIC to Porsche to meet its standard. Top Tier gas cuts across multiple car makers. But Tire Tiers? The best explanation I read comes from here


And now I know why I never heard of it before. Its marketing. Its not "what is the best tire". Its not comparing objective tests between tires. Its marketing information within the tire industry, what the industry considers Tier 1 based on: is it OEM? Do they sell a lot? These are pricing tiers. Brand recognize? etc. Who cares other than tire stores? This does not tell you which tire is the best performing. 2015, anonymous post


Dunlop better performing than Michelin.

Which brings us to Tire reviews. I agree with @SomeGuy assessment that there are no comparison tests. I repeatedly commented on this two years ago. An example:

"Show me the numbers. Show a link to comparisons between these tires and the rest done objectively, hopefully from a disinterested third party. Consumer Reports will do nicely. Or car magazines do them all the time like this Gumshoes: Five Sticky Summer Performance Tires Tested ... No test, them you can't say the tires are "good". Lets see some test results like this https://www.caranddriver.com/featur...re-final-scoring-and-performance-data-page-2/

dry performance, wet performance, braking, sound, set. Let the numbers speak for themselves."

These are "objective measures" that someone buying a performance vehicle cares about. This DOES NOT diminish subjective feelings, opinions, if performance is not your objective. Its only a criteria is you DO care about performance.

This is the only "review" I could find on their off road tire. It read to me "meh, its fine for the money paid" but its not a rave review. Its "good enough" for money paid.


In the end, buy whatever makes you happy.
 

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And now the administrative post. Some posts here, not relevant to the primary discussion, have been removed. If anyone feels there is a rule violation, then REPORT it. Click on the three dots on the top of a post and click report. List the rule # and why you think it was violated. If you don't like someone, don't argue, just put them on your ignore list. Then you do not have to read what they have to say. Please remember rule 5 "Respect your fellow automotive enthusiast."

Carry on and try to get along.

thanks
 

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Re : Admin

If you delete a post, I suggest you show the poster which post was considered out of bounds...
To help prevent future errors

Just deleting it & advising of the deletion doesn't help the poster learn
 

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Grim, thank you for stepping in here as a number of the comments were getting way beyond anything called for.

As for the tires themselves, I would point out a couple of things:

Yes, the initial attraction to these tires for many of us was the extraordinary price. You describe the difference as “a few dollars”, whereas originally the price difference was in the 65 to 70% range, way more than “a few dollars”.

After living with these tires on a day-to-day basis, some of us actually prefer them over the Nspec tires, irrespective of price. But no one is claiming we know better than Porsche and the tire engineers, however many of us do know what our preferences are better than Porsche does and many of us are experienced enough to make informed judgments as to what tires we prefer.

To suggest otherwise would be like saying Porsche owners should never make any mods because the factory knows best.
 

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Re : Admin

If you delete a post, I suggest you show the poster which post was considered out of bounds...
To help prevent future errors

Just deleting it & advising of the deletion doesn't help the poster learn

There's a checkbox option for the delete operation that provides notification to the poster the reason for a post's deletion.
So, the original poster may have received notification - which would not be displayed publicly in the thread.

PMs may also be used in order to keep a conversation for matters like these confidential.

FYI...


Now back to your regularly scheduled thread...
 

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Grim, thank you for stepping in here as a number of the comments were getting way beyond anything called for.

As for the tires themselves, I would point out a couple of things:

Yes, the initial attraction to these tires for many of us was the extraordinary price. You describe the difference as “a few dollars”, whereas originally the price difference was in the 65 to 70% range, way more than “a few dollars”.

After living with these tires on a day-to-day basis, some of us actually prefer them over the Nspec tires, irrespective of price. But no one is claiming we know better than Porsche and the tire engineers, however many of us do know what our preferences are better than Porsche does and many of us are experienced enough to make informed judgments as to what tires we prefer.

To suggest otherwise would be like saying Porsche owners should never make any mods because the factory knows best.

A month or so ago I watched a savagegeese review of a 992 911 and one of the statements made really hit home with me. The reviewer noted
that Porsche develops the N-spec tires as a component in the vehicle's suspension system. Just like designing and tuning the dampers and springs,
sway bars and bushings, etc. the tires are also considered an important part of the overall system.

I can certainly appreciate saving some $ when buying parts.

Having come from a BMW with expen$ive run flat tires, the 21" N-spec tires seemed a bargain when compared with what I spent on 18" RFT units.
Run flat is a great concept, unfortunately picking up a nail or screw necessitates tire replacement, since nobody will repair an RFT...

It's also why I opted for wheel & tire insurance when I bought my Macan, I've used it 2X - so far. I have a few more years of coverage remaining. Just
one wheel replacement would more than break even the expense.


YMMV!
 

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Yes, the initial attraction to these tires for many of us was the extraordinary price. You describe the difference as “a few dollars”, whereas originally the price difference was in the 65 to 70% range, way more than “a few dollars”.
One of the points I made very early in this thread was the old adage, "you get what you pay for". And sometimes, that which is cheap is actually, over time, more expensive.

I haven't paid any attention to these tires so let me ask this. I used one of the links from the first few pages and found this at simpletire.com $170 for the 20" fronts vs maybe $320 for Michelins or Pirellis. Rears will be a little more. Maybe $360. So significant up from savings over $650 for one set of tires.

So for the Atturo advocates, you've chosen these tires for price and not actual objective performance. The average car on the road in 2021 is 12 years, lets say 120,000 miles. What will be the consumable Tire Total Cost of Ownership? I know people tend to think in terms of today, but TCO is what hurts Porsche buyers sometimes because they forget maintenance costs are much higher than your average car.

So, for those who use these tires, what mileage are you getting out of say $720 set of tires vs a $1300 set of michelins?

If you get MORE, then financially you win.
If you get less, then if you buy just ONE extra set of tires over 120K miles, you lose. So who knows the average set of miles for equivalent Atturos vs Michelins?

What is the True TCO?

This link is showing 30K for the michelins but "The Michelins would have went for many more miles but did not want to wait due to any possibility of supply issues. The tread has worn evenly and there was 4/32 to 5/32 remaining today." So maybe 40K miles and three sets of tires for 120K?

After living with these tires on a day-to-day basis, some of us actually prefer them over the Nspec tires, irrespective of price. But no one is claiming we know better than Porsche and the tire engineers, however many of us do know what our preferences are better than Porsche does and many of us are experienced enough to make informed judgments as to what tires we prefer. To suggest otherwise would be like saying Porsche owners should never make any mods because the factory knows best.
I believe I covered that by saying "dry performance, wet performance, braking, sound, set. Let the numbers speak for themselves." ...These are "objective measures" that someone buying a performance vehicle cares about. This DOES NOT diminish subjective feelings, opinions, if performance is not your objective. Its only a criteria is you DO care about performance."

You cannot argue with objective measures. You can argue subjective feelings and no one's opinion is better than another. Hence "This DOES NOT diminish subjective feelings"
 

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When I was shopping for my Macan there were two of three available in my area that I was considering. I narrowed my choice down to two but one had 20” Spyder wheels which I really liked, just made the look of the car. But my thought process was “maybe I should get the one with 18” because the tires will be cheaper”. My “ah ha moment” was when I realized I’d likely only put one, maybe two, sets of new tires on the car so the additional cost of tires over my ownership of the car would not be significant.

Im not sure how my comment is relevant to the lengthy discussion on if one brand of tire justifies its lower cost or higher cost, but if tires are a major financial concern for you maybe you’re owning the wrong car. However, if you believe one tire is a better value with similar performance…..go with it. Your choice.
 

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One of the points I made very early in this thread was the old adage, "you get what you pay for". And sometimes, that which is cheap is actually, over time, more expensive.

I haven't paid any attention to these tires so let me ask this. I used one of the links from the first few pages and found this at simpletire.com $170 for the 20" fronts vs maybe $320 for Michelins or Pirellis. Rears will be a little more. Maybe $360. So significant up from savings over $650 for one set of tires.

So for the Atturo advocates, you've chosen these tires for price and not actual objective performance. The average car on the road in 2021 is 12 years, lets say 120,000 miles. What will be the consumable Tire Total Cost of Ownership? I know people tend to think in terms of today, but TCO is what hurts Porsche buyers sometimes because they forget maintenance costs are much higher than your average car.

So, for those who use these tires, what mileage are you getting out of say $720 set of tires vs a $1300 set of michelins?

If you get MORE, then financially you win.
If you get less, then if you buy just ONE extra set of tires over 120K miles, you lose. So who knows the average set of miles for equivalent Atturos vs Michelins?
Sometimes that adage is true and sometimes it's not. There have been books written solely on Pricing and in business school we studied Pricing Strategy for an entire semester. Price is not always reflective of quality. For example, sometimes it's reflective of what the market will bear.

With respect to the products being discussed, early on the prices Michelin was asking for the 21 inch Nspec tires were breathtaking. But at the time there was little choice, mostly because the 265-40-21 front tire size is somewhat of an oddball. I thought it was obvious Michelin was padding the prices of these tires given the lack of competition, that that's why the price difference between them and the Atturos was so staggering when the Atturos first became available.

Anyone else notice how dramatically Michelin dropped the price when more competition appeared on the scene?

I would suggest if the price difference were something like 10 or 20% this thread would not even exist. But the price difference was so staggering and after a few "early adopters" here who were obviously quite knowledgeable about tires and handling started to report on their Atturo experiences, the interest snowballed.

As to mileage, have you not noticed how many were complaining about how quickly the Michelin Nspecs were wearing out (especially at that price?), and the reports on the Atturo treadlife? Those reports are not exactly subjective.

I've never suggested nor expected the Atturos perform as well as the Nspecs. I fully assume that whatever Atturo has built into these tires to improve treadlife is a compromise somewhere else. Tires are always a compromise. But for at least some of us, Atturos have hit on the right formula.
 

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Please don't ignore or forget the responses of the users and their comparisons to N-Spec

Certainly, price is factor - as it is in all decisions - but not always the overriding one.
Naive to think so.
If we carry your concept further, we'll deduce that Porsche buyers did so b/c a higher priced car is better..... I don't agree

Personally, I like the the tread pattern of the 800's... and don't see anything like in N-Spec.

To infer - let alone SAY- that price is what drives these purchases is a stretch - IMO.
What may drive your decisions doesn't always apply to others.
 

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Chris/Philly

Do you remember the impact that advertising had on price ? From Biz School...
STAGGERING !!

Better to put money into R&D and let the market decide--- I say
 

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As to mileage, have you not noticed how many were complaining about how quickly the Michelin Nspecs were wearing out (especially at that price?), and the reports on the Atturo treadlife? Those reports are not exactly subjective.
None of this answers the financial question today. The only hard data I see on 20" michelins is "This link is showing 30K for the michelins but "The Michelins would have went for many more miles but did not want to wait due to any possibility of supply issues. The tread has worn evenly and there was 4/32 to 5/32 remaining today." So maybe 40K miles ..."

So my question remains. For those today who buy these tires for financial reasons, how many sets will you go through over the average life of a car in the US today, about 12 years or 120K miles vs Michelins. I know one example is not an average but who else has hard data?

What is the TCO for these tires, consumables, for someone who buys nothing but Atturos vs someone who buys only Michelins. My question is unanswered

"If you get MORE, then financially you win. If you get less, then if you buy just ONE extra set of tires over 120K miles, you lose." ???
 

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None of this answers the financial question today. The only hard data I see on 20" michelins is "This link is showing 30K for the michelins but "The Michelins would have went for many more miles but did not want to wait due to any possibility of supply issues. The tread has worn evenly and there was 4/32 to 5/32 remaining today." So maybe 40K miles ..."

So my question remains. For those today who buy these tires for financial reasons, how many sets will you go through over the average life of a car in the US today, about 12 years or 120K miles vs Michelins. I know one example is not an average but who else has hard data?

What is the TCO for these tires, consumables, for someone who buys nothing but Atturos vs someone who buys only Michelins. My question is unanswered

"If you get MORE, then financially you win. If you get less, then if you buy just ONE extra set of tires over 120K miles, you lose." ???
See post 366 above. Sure that's just one owner, and I would not conclude from just this one example everyone will see double the treadlife. But he's far from the only one. I would say it's a very safe bet the average owner is seeing better treadlife from the Atturos.

But again, of course we don't know what Atturo has done to achieve that better treadlife. Could be for example they are using a harder compound that increases dry road braking distances. Admittedly we don't know. But if that were the case we have some forum members with significant track experience who are not finding that. Of course anyone would say a controlled side by side test would be preferable if it existed.
 

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if tires are a major financial concern for you maybe you’re owning the wrong car.
Sounds as if you don't realize there is a significant contingent of folks here who don't have unlimited funds, and you don't realize how many threads there are discussing how to save on service and purchasing, and that's before you even get to the folks here who have chosen to buy used to save $.

We're talking about an upscale SUV that most commonly sells (at least in the U.S) in the $60,000-$80,000 range, not a 911 that most often sells in the $125,000 to $200,000 range.

Of course many forum members are well off and just take their Macan to the dealer and pay whatever bill is presented to them. Wish I was in that category but I'm not.

When presented with an option to save 50% or more on a set of tires, plenty of folks here have at the very least stood up and taken notice. As someone else said, if the price differential were only 10-20% this thread would likely not exist. Not saying that everyone who considers Atturo buys Atturo, and nor is Atturo the right answer for everyone.

And finally as you can see by the posts here, not everyone here is choosing Atturo based on price alone.
 

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But I also said: “However, if you believe one tire is a better value with similar performance…..go with it.”
 

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I usually check tirerack.com for tire reviews, but I couldn’t find Atturo tires there. Guess tirerack doesn’t carry this brand. However, that doesn’t mean Atturo tires are not good, just that we cannot get objective reviews on them.
 

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jzwu
go to Simple Tire - TireRack doesn't carry Atturo

For those of a certain age --
We have had this before when Khumo & Hankook were kicked to the curb = JUNK

Not so any more

As to price the advert component -
Just check out name brand drugs vs generic or House Brand (a la CVS, Walmart, et al )
and ask yourself why the big price discrepancy for the same ingredients

Brand has its privileges ..... at a price !!
That's why 'brands' are given a monopoly in the initial years - to recoup the R&D costs
 
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