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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys! Long time no talk!
Quick update on this topic I felt was important for you to know…. Take it with a grain of salt…. There’s an ongoing discussion in my local PCA chapter FaceBook page, with a Macan owner who’s having a timing issue that a shop is kind of pushing back on…. It’s been awesome dialogue to read with both Porsche certified dealer techs chiming in, along with non-dealer techs as well. Short of the long… this owners issue arose from originally an engine out oil leak (they think), and the dialogue that has ensued accidentally uncovered that Porsche (evidently) has JUST RECENTLY AUTHORIZED a NON ENGINE OUT repair for the timing bolt leak. Meaning, what many guys on the forum have already done by simply replacing the bolts (only) instead of the complete engine out/drop method and resealing the gasket too. Again, take all this with a grain of salt, but this is what I read from certified Porsche Techs.

Hopefully good news for others that come up with this leak in the future.

If this has already been posted, I apologize for the repeat… I’m not on here a ton anymore. Still love this forum tho!

Edit - Mods, pls feel free to cut/paste to the other Timing bolts oil leak threads, as I’m sure there are multiple… I haven’t kept up recently…
 

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Great info....someone posted here recently about the new "bolt kit" for this repair.
The question is....if you do not have this leak....is this a good or bad pro active step ?
 

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..., and the dialogue that has ensued accidentally uncovered that Porsche (evidently) has JUST RECENTLY AUTHORIZED a NON ENGINE OUT repair for the timing bolt leak. Meaning, what many guys on the forum have already done by simply replacing the bolts (only) instead of the complete engine out/drop method and resealing the gasket too.
I was talking to my local Porsche dealer tech last year about about issues and what I would be facing when the CPO ran out. This subject and about a half dozen others came up. They told me replacing the bolts (I think to steel) could be done in advance for a preventative measure. And I asked why that couldn't be a resolution and he said it can, and don't worry about that anymore.

Also mentioned that a more frequent fluid change seemed to hold off the transfer case problem - but that isn't something Porsche "officially" claims. There was no work around for the AC.

Later this week I have to take my other car in and will ask him for specifics.
 

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Hey guys! Long time no talk!
Quick update on this topic I felt was important for you to know…. Take it with a grain of salt…. There’s an ongoing discussion in my local PCA chapter FaceBook page, with a Macan owner who’s having a timing issue that a shop is kind of pushing back on…. It’s been awesome dialogue to read with both Porsche certified dealer techs chiming in, along with non-dealer techs as well. Short of the long… this owners issue arose from originally an engine out oil leak (they think), and the dialogue that has ensued accidentally uncovered that Porsche (evidently) has JUST RECENTLY AUTHORIZED a NON ENGINE OUT repair for the timing bolt leak. Meaning, what many guys on the forum have already done by simply replacing the bolts (only) instead of the complete engine out/drop method and resealing the gasket too. Again, take all this with a grain of salt, but this is what I read from certified Porsche Techs.

Hopefully good news for others that come up with this leak in the future.

If this has already been posted, I apologize for the repeat… I’m not on here a ton anymore. Still love this forum tho!

Edit - Mods, pls feel free to cut/paste to the other Timing bolts oil leak threads, as I’m sure there are multiple… I haven’t kept up recently…
Is it possible to link the discussion from Facebook or PM? Tks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

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Sure… let’s see if this works…

It does and joining requires membership to the local PCA chapter and a PCA member # (which I am not). Tks!
 

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I missed the Santirx post so I'll scroll back to check it out but a couple of questions ...

  • If that's a picture of the old bolt and it snapped about half way down, how did you get the tip end out?
  • Is that bullet tip on the bolt normal, or a result of wear or something else?
  • Is there any form of spring washer used? [I've been thinking that a fibre washer could be a good idea both as a seal and to help with any stress caused by expansion of the case metal]

Jules
 

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I missed the Santirx post so I'll scroll back to check it out but a couple of questions ...

  • If that's a picture of the old bolt and it snapped about half way down, how did you get the tip end out?
  • Is that bullet tip on the bolt normal, or a result of wear or something else?
  • Is there any form of spring washer used? [I've been thinking that a fibre washer could be a good idea both as a seal and to help with any stress caused by expansion of the case metal]

Jules
These screws are pass through, meaning you see the screw on both sides…. You can see the tip there. The smooth tip is designed.

Photo below, left screw is new, right screw is obviously the one that snapped...

Wood Font Household hardware Hardwood Fastener


In this photo you can see how the screw is passthrough... When snapped, you can take the part of the screw on the right out, and the remaining through the back (left in the photo)...

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Reference back to this post: Oil leak anyone?

Canadian dealer shops are now performing a 2 bolt fix for the TC leak issue since ~March 8. I had mine completed yesterday. I'm to come back in 3 months and Porsche will verify if it's fixed or not. If not, then they do the engine pull. Had to wait a week for the screws and washers to ship from Germany.

I've never had to top up my oil, the leak could not have been that bad, although the bottom cover was pretty bad (more likely due to a slow leak over years). Disadvantage of not having a dipstick, you can't easily evaluate changes over time.
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Great info....someone posted here recently about the new "bolt kit" for this repair.
The question is....if you do not have this leak....is this a good or bad pro active step ?
As I understand this is a problem that only occurs at build time, not randomly during normal operation. The 2 bolts are over-torqued during build resulting in both breaking. Some people have commented that the bolt was made from aluminum and was too weak for the intended application - I can't verify this.

Oil leaks develop within a few 1000 miles due to vibration and heat. You can't normally see the leak source because it's covered by the engine cover and a ton of pipes, but if you get in there, you will be able to see the it. The best evidence is the top of the bottom engine cover, when it was pulled for an oil change, the top of the cover may be saturated with oil. Keep in mind, that oil could also be a minor leak from a oil filter not being quite tight enough.

I never saw oil on my driveway and never had to top up. Never smelt anything and no smoke. If it wasn't for this forum, I may never have known.

If you are concerned, you can ask the dealer to do an inspection. They will check the bottom cover and degrease the front of the engine. Go back in 2-3K miles and they will visually inspect. They charge ~$200 (CDN) for this process, but will refund it, if a leak is found.
 

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These screws are pass through, meaning you see the screw on both sides…. You can see the tip there. The smooth tip is designed.

Photo below, left screw is new, right screw is obviously the one that snapped...

View attachment 253106

In this photo you can see how the screw is passthrough... When snapped, you can take the part of the screw on the right out, and the remaining through the back (left in the photo)...

View attachment 253107
Thanks, I've never seen a detailed pic. of one of the screws in place before now, so that makes the whole matter a lot clearer.

You replaced 2 screws, one on each bank I guess. At 2 or 3 mm diam. [?] these are particularly puny fasteners and if they're alloy as well, I'm not all that surprised that they fail.

A few questions if that's ok:
Is the new one a different material?
Is it a Phillips head and would it be easier to tighten with an inhex/allen/torx head screw?
If these screws are really "a kit" supplied by Porsche, what do they charge for them 😏 ?

I'm now uncertain as to whether I should pursue this here or on the other thread which has no useful info. on how to replace the screws??

Jules
 

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Thanks, I've never seen a detailed pic. of one of the screws in place before now, so that makes the whole matter a lot clearer.

You replaced 2 screws, one on each bank I guess. At 2 or 3 mm diam. [?] these are particularly puny fasteners and if they're alloy as well, I'm not all that surprised that they fail.

A few questions if that's ok:
Is the new one a different material?
Is it a Phillips head and would it be easier to tighten with an inhex/allen/torx head screw?
If these screws are really "a kit" supplied by Porsche, what do they charge for them 😏 ?

I'm now uncertain as to whether I should pursue this here or on the other thread which has no useful info. on how to replace the screws??

Jules
Start reviewing post 1,117 in this thread and then several of my post after that one. Al the information you are asking for is there.

I used like for like (meaning is an aluminum alloy), but I heard Porsche changed specs for these screws to a stronger alloy. Waiting to hear from some members here. For now, they are performing well, and I will only change them if they fail again. I’m monitoring closely.

The screws are M6x30 Torx.

If you decide to replace yourself, make sure you read this thread. You should use high temperature thread sealant. All information is here.

Disclaimer: This is what worked for my Macan. If you are in doubt, I do recommend you seek the help of a professional.

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Start reviewing post 1,117 in this thread and then several of my post after that one. Al the information you are asking for is there.

I used like for like (meaning is an aluminum alloy), but I heard Porsche changed specs for these screws to a stronger alloy. Waiting to hear from some members here. For now, they are performing well, and I will only change them if they fail again. I’m monitoring closely.

The screws are M6x30 Torx.

If you decide to replace yourself, make sure you read this thread. You should use high temperature thread sealant. All information is here.

Disclaimer: This is what worked for my Macan. If you are in doubt, I do recommend you seek the help of a professional.

View attachment 253112
Thanks Santirx, I went back and read the whole process. Some excellent thinking in your approach to the job and a fantastically clear write-up.

M6, so they're bigger than I thought they were from the pics. No problem with diameter then.

Some thoughts:
  • I completely agree with the use of a thread sealant though I'm wondering if it could make the tip of the screw harder to remove if there's a second failure.
  • I haven't had this problem, yet, at 50,000 miles on a 2015 Macan S but if it does happen I'll take a chance on replacing the alloy screw with an HT steel one and a fibre washer under the head. There's many examples of using steel fasteners in similar positions on engines and to me, using stress prone alloy for a job like this is risky. I know people will tell me Porsche know what they're doing better than I do but it didn't work all that well did it?
  • I would guess that if one screw fails, it will put slightly more stress on the screws on either side of it.

Jules
 

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Reading the fine print I see the Canadian dealer invoice attachment from FAST mentions 2 steel screws and 2 aluminium washers as the fix.

The part no. for the screw, from the invoice, N-910-971-01 comes up as "passenger air bag mount bolt" on a search, which is interesting but doesn't tell us anything beyond the fact that the screw/bolt has not been specifically designed for the timing chain case.

Jules
 

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I asked my SA at the dealer that has maintained my car the question of what would it cost to perform the new Porsche approach to fix the TC leakage problem. She researched it and told me this;

Parts and labor is approx. $1250-1350+tax for the replacement bolts/hardware needed.

So there you have it.
 

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As I understand this is a problem that only occurs at build time, not randomly during normal operation. The 2 bolts are over-torqued during build resulting in both breaking. Some people have commented that the bolt was made from aluminum and was too weak for the intended application - I can't verify this.

Oil leaks develop within a few 1000 miles due to vibration and heat. You can't normally see the leak source because it's covered by the engine cover and a ton of pipes, but if you get in there, you will be able to see the it. The best evidence is the top of the bottom engine cover, when it was pulled for an oil change, the top of the cover may be saturated with oil. Keep in mind, that oil could also be a minor leak from a oil filter not being quite tight enough.

I never saw oil on my driveway and never had to top up. Never smelt anything and no smoke. If it wasn't for this forum, I may never have known.

If you are concerned, you can ask the dealer to do an inspection. They will check the bottom cover and degrease the front of the engine. Go back in 2-3K miles and they will visually inspect. They charge ~$200 (CDN) for this process, but will refund it, if a leak is found.

While the issue has its origin in a procedure at build time, it does NOT necessarily result in a leak/seepage of oil within a few thousand miles.
My Macan developed its leak at around 30K miles, significantly more than a few. It is not very likely that anyone is going to be able to see the
tops of the TCCs when viewing from the bottom of the engine. What is visible is oil that has drooled down the cover(s) after it has been seeping
for some period of time. Once the oil appears on the underpanel, it has been leaking for even longer.

NOTE: the source of leaking may be from valve cover gaskets instead of or in addition to leaking TCCs. Further, an under tightened oil filter
housing, or an incorrect OF housing o-ring will not likely result in oil deposited all over the front of the engine, and it would allow the leaking
of considerable oil in a short period of time which would soon show up beneath the vehicle.

When my Macan was seeping oil, I did notice the oil level dropped a bit between oil changes. No oil was evident at the 20K oil service, though
when I changed the oil at the 30K mark, I discovered oil on the front of the engine (TCCs, etc.). It had not progressed to the bottom of the engine
and dripping on the underpanel.



Some thoughts:
  • I completely agree with the use of a thread sealant though I'm wondering if it could make the tip of the screw harder to remove if there's a second failure.
  • I haven't had this problem, yet, at 50,000 miles on a 2015 Macan S but if it does happen I'll take a chance on replacing the alloy screw with an HT steel one and a fibre washer under the head. There's many examples of using steel fasteners in similar positions on engines and to me, using stress prone alloy for a job like this is risky. I know people will tell me Porsche know what they're doing better than I do but it didn't work all that well did it?
  • I would guess that if one screw fails, it will put slightly more stress on the screws on either side of it.

Jules

If, by thread sealant, you are referring to products which act as a mild adhesive in order to prevent threaded assemblies from loosening
over time, vibration, temperature fluctuations, etc., there are products that offer varying degrees of that adhesion, making it easier or
more difficult to disassemble things in the future.

If your Macan hasn't shown any oil seepage from the TCCs, it is not likely to do so.

I would hesitate to replace an aluminum fastener with a steel one unless that is the "approved" fix now (apparently) being used by Porsche.
Also note that not only these Torx screws/bolts are used to fasten the TCCs to the engine, there are (metal?) gaskets and sealant used as
well. As I understand it, and following the engine out procedure, sealant is applied to the front of the engine, the gaskets are placed, then
sealant is applied to the gaskets and the covers are then fastened to the engine and torqued in a specific sequence.
 
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