The VW AG Scandal - Page 3 - Porsche Macan Forum
User Tag List

 831Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
post #21 of 911 (permalink) Old 09-19-2015, 10:14 AM
Senior Member
 
MDJAK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: New York
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 779 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1972 Post(s)
Default

18 Billion? Really? GM just got fined $900 million for far, far worse.


It's kind of like when someone is arrested and they say he's facing 300 years in prison and he gets probation.
MDJAK is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 911 (permalink) Old 09-19-2015, 10:19 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: New York
Posts: 782
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 237 Post(s)
Default

@Aprilia850 Fahrfromlëgal

Hilarious!!! That's one of the best I've seen on the forum yet!!!


2017 MACAN GTS Rhodium Silver*Black Leather Pkg | 20" SD Wheels*Pirelli | PTV+ | PDLS+ | Gloss Black Door Handles | Side Blades in Rhodium Silver | Porsche Entry&Drive | 14-Way Seats*Memory Pkg | LCA | ACC-PAS | ParkAssist*Surround View | Auto-Dimming Mirrors | Steering Wheel Heating | Seat Heating & Ventilation | Dark Walnut Interior Pkg | Instrument Dials in White | Compass on Dashboard*White Dial | NAV*PCM*Connect + | Smoking Pkg | Aluminum-Look Fuel Cap
Jerry is offline  
post #23 of 911 (permalink) Old 09-19-2015, 10:31 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: New York
Posts: 782
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 237 Post(s)
Default

In case some of the younger members don't get it, this was VW's slogan in the 1990's...

"Fahrvergnügen: [driving enjoyment] It's what makes a car a Volkswagen".

2017 MACAN GTS Rhodium Silver*Black Leather Pkg | 20" SD Wheels*Pirelli | PTV+ | PDLS+ | Gloss Black Door Handles | Side Blades in Rhodium Silver | Porsche Entry&Drive | 14-Way Seats*Memory Pkg | LCA | ACC-PAS | ParkAssist*Surround View | Auto-Dimming Mirrors | Steering Wheel Heating | Seat Heating & Ventilation | Dark Walnut Interior Pkg | Instrument Dials in White | Compass on Dashboard*White Dial | NAV*PCM*Connect + | Smoking Pkg | Aluminum-Look Fuel Cap
Jerry is offline  
 
post #24 of 911 (permalink) Old 09-19-2015, 10:40 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 1,134
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 333 Post(s)
Default

As others have said, liability including from fines and from judgments from lawsuits is usually much greater when the damage resulted from intentional misconduct rather than negligent conduct. In civil suits, deliberate wrongdoing allows for punitive damages (damages to punish the wrongdoer) in addition to compensatory damages (actual damages to make a party whole for the loss they suffered), and the amount of punitive damages can exceed compensatory damages. Someone mentioned insurance to protect against this type of liability. I would really be surprised, insurance does not generally cover intentional wrongdoing. In addition to huge fines, damages from civil suits, including class actions, this would be a huge blow to the VW brand/reputation. Just based on what I've read this could be much larger than the GM ignition issue, it's not like GM intentionally designed the system to fail but there are allegations that at a point in time they learned the system was faulty and did not take appropriate steps to correct it and alert customers. To the extent Porsche owns part of VW, the value of those Porsche assets could drop and could possibly become zero. To the extent VW owns part of Porsche (I'm not sure who owns whom) VW could end up selling, or in effect being forced to sell, its interests in Porsche.
WHT TGR, Unblatherer and Jerry like this.
reguy is offline  
post #25 of 911 (permalink) Old 09-19-2015, 11:25 AM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 4,500
Mentioned: 1009 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2361 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by reguy View Post
...this would be a huge blow to the VW brand/reputation.
Everyone wanted 40 MPG cars. Hyundai/Kia made "procedural" errors in testing caught by the EPA. Fine was $300 one year ago, Did sales drop? Hardly they went UP.

One year from now no one will care or remember. They are all too busy taking pictures of their food and posting on FB

Quote:
Originally Posted by reguy View Post
To the extent Porsche owns part of VW, the value of those Porsche assets could drop and could possibly become zero. To the extent VW owns part of Porsche (I'm not sure who owns whom) VW could end up selling, or in effect being forced to sell, its interests in Porsche.
VW AG owns Porsche AG along with Bentley, Bugatti, Audi, SEAT and other marques. That company is now being broken down into 4 holding companies of which PAG leads Bentley and Bugatti. Porsche SE, a holding company holds 51% of VAG stock effectively owning VAG

Nothing is going to happen to Porsche AG, the auto making company. 99.9% of the public has no clue how convoluted the companies are or who really controls what. I can believe the chair of Porsche SE, Wolfgang Porsche, looking up vertically, has no idea about VAG daily operations nor the PAG CEO, looking horizontally. But SOMEBODY in the VW manager chains has to know.

As to civil liability. What did the 1,000,000 Hyundai and Kia owners get? A tank of gas?
grim is offline  
post #26 of 911 (permalink) Old 09-19-2015, 11:39 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: New York
Posts: 782
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 237 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grim View Post
Everyone wanted 40 MPG cars. Hyundai/Kia made "procedural" errors in testing caught by the EPA. Fine was $300 one year ago, Did sales drop? Hardly they went UP.
The universal axiom: "The bigger they are, the harder they fall!!"

2017 MACAN GTS Rhodium Silver*Black Leather Pkg | 20" SD Wheels*Pirelli | PTV+ | PDLS+ | Gloss Black Door Handles | Side Blades in Rhodium Silver | Porsche Entry&Drive | 14-Way Seats*Memory Pkg | LCA | ACC-PAS | ParkAssist*Surround View | Auto-Dimming Mirrors | Steering Wheel Heating | Seat Heating & Ventilation | Dark Walnut Interior Pkg | Instrument Dials in White | Compass on Dashboard*White Dial | NAV*PCM*Connect + | Smoking Pkg | Aluminum-Look Fuel Cap
Jerry is offline  
post #27 of 911 (permalink) Old 09-19-2015, 11:59 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 1,134
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 333 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grim View Post
Everyone wanted 40 MPG cars. Hyundai/Kia made "procedural" errors in testing caught by the EPA. Fine was $300 one year ago, Did sales drop? Hardly they went UP.

One year from now no one will care or remember. They are all too busy taking pictures of their food and posting on FB



VW AG owns Porsche AG along with Bentley, Bugatti, Audi, SEAT and other marques. That company is now being broken down into 4 holding companies of which PAG leads Bentley and Bugatti. Porsche SE, a holding company holds 51% of VAG stock effectively owning VAG

Nothing is going to happen to Porsche AG, the auto making company. 99.9% of the public has no clue how convoluted the companies are or who really controls what. I can believe the chair of Porsche SE, Wolfgang Porsche, looking up vertically, has no idea about VAG daily operations nor the PAG CEO, looking horizontally. But SOMEBODY in the VW manager chains has to know.

As to civil liability. What did the 1,000,000 Hyundai and Kia owners get? A tank of gas?


I'm not familiar with the Hyundai/Kia situation so you tell me. I do know when Mazda mistakenly overstated the HP by about 10 (because subsequently changed the exhaust system after the hp tests were performed) all people who bought the affected model(s) got the right to either a new car or a full refund regardless of mileage/condition. You also miss the point that if these allegations are true, this involves an intentional bad act.
Jerry likes this.
reguy is offline  
post #28 of 911 (permalink) Old 09-19-2015, 12:15 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 1,134
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 333 Post(s)
Default

Hy/Kia paid a $100 million fine and lost $200 million of Federal EP credits. For overstating gas mileage by 1 or 2 miles per gallon, each owner got about $90 a year, based on driving 15,000 miles a year, for every year they own the car. As mileage increases so does amount.
Jerry likes this.
reguy is offline  
post #29 of 911 (permalink) Old 09-19-2015, 12:40 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 4,500
Mentioned: 1009 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2361 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by reguy View Post
You also miss the point that if these allegations are true, this involves an intentional bad act.
I didn't miss anything. I said explictly:

"DOJ will do a settlement, more than the Kia/Hyundai fine due to the willful act, maybe up to a magnitude greater, maybe up to $3B. There will be a press release saying how shameful this is and the EPA takes this stuff seriously, and then back to business as usual."

That is what will happen. In a year, no one will remember this just like you didn't know about Hyundia/Kia, which a year ago was BIG in the auto industry because everyone was pushing for 40 mpg cars.

The general public will not care one bit about this, sales will INCREASE, just like the did for Hyundai, and we all will be too busy taking selfies and watching the Kardesians to remember this happened.

They didn't kill anyone. They didn't put any human in harms way. They cheated on their SAT scores, which in no way do I endorse nor advocate. You will see press releases and fancy statements about how aweful it is. And then it goes away from the public eye.

Meanwhile, back in the dark halls of Wolfsburg, somebody is resigning. We might hear who, or a year from now a top exec will just retire.
RJMcInnis and Hokie like this.
grim is offline  
post #30 of 911 (permalink) Old 09-19-2015, 12:40 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: New York
Posts: 782
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 237 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by reguy View Post
I'm not familiar with the Hyundai/Kia situation so you tell me. I do know when Mazda mistakenly overstated the HP by about 10 (because subsequently changed the exhaust system after the hp tests were performed) all people who bought the affected model(s) got the right to either a new car or a full refund regardless of mileage/condition. You also miss the point that if these allegations are true, this involves an intentional bad act.
...with emphasis on INTENTIONAL!!!

2017 MACAN GTS Rhodium Silver*Black Leather Pkg | 20" SD Wheels*Pirelli | PTV+ | PDLS+ | Gloss Black Door Handles | Side Blades in Rhodium Silver | Porsche Entry&Drive | 14-Way Seats*Memory Pkg | LCA | ACC-PAS | ParkAssist*Surround View | Auto-Dimming Mirrors | Steering Wheel Heating | Seat Heating & Ventilation | Dark Walnut Interior Pkg | Instrument Dials in White | Compass on Dashboard*White Dial | NAV*PCM*Connect + | Smoking Pkg | Aluminum-Look Fuel Cap
Jerry is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome