The ill spec of lot cars - Page 3 - Porsche Macan Forum
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post #21 of 100 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by grim View Post
Macans? Of course not. The public doesn't care one bit about performance. Its a CUV.



If you did some due diligence you would have found that the IIHS is testing headlights now. No Porsche will ever be in it but the facts are out there. FMVSS108 is fact. It is the law within the US and all OEM headlights must fit within the boundaries of the law. Generally, OEM HIDs put out 3000 lumens. There is no consistent standard I know of for LEDS. FMVSS108 deals mostly with angles and cutoff. However, the IIHS knows there is much more to this than lumens and hence actual, on the road test, just like you mention. Imagine that ...

Testing standards Headlight evaluation

TL;DR? The best results come from systems that follow the road, like PDLS. But how do LEDs stack up against HIDs and Halogens? Forget about HIDs, let just look at the much weaker system, Halogens.

All cars are not created equal

Mercedes C Class rated POOR with LEDs Vehicle details
Nissan Altima POOR with LEDS Vehicle details
VW Passat POOR with LEDS Vehicle details
Audi A3 POOR with LEDs Vehicle details
Nissan Rogue POOR with LEDS Vehicle details
BMW 3 Serieos Marginal with LEDs Vehicle details
Lincoln MKS Marginal with LEDs Vehicle details


You get the point.

But wait, the Honda Accord is rated Acceptable, with, wait for it ... Halogens, not even HIDS Vehicle details
And the CR-V Vehicle details

etc. so much for the mighty LEDs headlights.

Do real testing. Lend a Macan with LEDs and one with HIDs, both with PDLS, to IIHS and see what the say. Come back with real empirical data according to some standardized test. Then we can talk about which is better. Until then, Proof by Assertion means nothing.

This is no different than those bar room napkin racers. Go to the Ring and put up a time. Then we can talk. Same here. Get some standardized testing results from an independent organization.
Grim, you have to compare the Xenons vs Halogen vs LED on THE SAME VEHICLE. If the Accord's Halogen lights are the bees knees, good for them. We are comparing the Xenons vs Halogen vs LED... ON-A-MACAN.

These are the differences of the LED lights on a Macan, according to Porsche, which I think should know a thing or two about the cars they make.


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post #22 of 100 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 07:24 PM
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Six months ago a Macan depositor put his configuration on another forum, he did not specify xenons or LEDs.

He was repeatedly advised by different actual Macan owners to upgrade the standard Halogen lights as they are pretty poor.

He failed to take the advice, he took delivery and on his first drive at night he found out why so many advised him to upgrade.

He is now searching for upgrades.

Why if the halogen lights are OK is a Macan owner looking to upgrade his?
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post #23 of 100 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 07:59 PM
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Just when I was going to put the popcorn away.


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post #24 of 100 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 10:56 PM
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It's not perfectly like to like but I've compared the HIDs on my Macan to the LEDs on my dad's Panamera and the LEDs are dramatically brighter. The HIDs on the Macan are also weaker than the HIDs on my last BMW for some reason (sold it to a friend so we compared side by side). The BMW lights also follow the road/steering angle vs. just the static cornering light on the Macan. They're good enough but the Macan headlights aren't one of its strongest features.

Once again I'm shocked by @grim's sterotyping of Macan buyers and the dismissive, condescending "it's a CUV" commentary. Performance matters to nearly all Macan buyers (I'm excluding those who are buying 100% for the badge). If performance doesn't matter you can buy anything from a CR-V to an RX for whole lot less money. The reason the Macan is selling is its pperformance!

In @grim's world, dealership sales managers are Mensa members and their (much wealthier) customers are all idiots. Uh-huh ...
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post #25 of 100 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grim View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macanuck View Post
Most lot cars are not spec'd the way a performance oriented driver might want.
Macans? Of course not. The public doesn't care one bit about performance. Its a CUV.

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Originally Posted by alex_c View Post
No reading required.
If you did some due diligence you would have found that the IIHS is testing headlights now. No Porsche will ever be in it but the facts are out there. FMVSS108 is fact. It is the law within the US and all OEM headlights must fit within the boundaries of the law. Generally, OEM HIDs put out 3000 lumens. There is no consistent standard I know of for LEDS. FMVSS108 deals mostly with angles and cutoff. However, the IIHS knows there is much more to this than lumens and hence actual, on the road test, just like you mention. Imagine that ...

Testing standards Headlight evaluation

TL;DR? The best results come from systems that follow the road, like PDLS. But how do LEDs stack up against HIDs and Halogens? Forget about HIDs, let just look at the much weaker system, Halogens.

All cars are not created equal

Mercedes C Class rated POOR with LEDs Vehicle details
Nissan Altima POOR with LEDS Vehicle details
VW Passat POOR with LEDS Vehicle details
Audi A3 POOR with LEDs Vehicle details
Nissan Rogue POOR with LEDS Vehicle details
BMW 3 Serieos Marginal with LEDs Vehicle details
Lincoln MKS Marginal with LEDs Vehicle details


You get the point.

But wait, the Honda Accord is rated Acceptable, with, wait for it ... Halogens, not even HIDS Vehicle details
And the CR-V Vehicle details

etc. so much for the mighty LEDs headlights.

Do real testing. Lend a Macan with LEDs and one with HIDs, both with PDLS, to IIHS and see what the say. Come back with real empirical data according to some standardized test. Then we can talk about which is better. Until then, Proof by Assertion means nothing.

This is no different than those bar room napkin racers. Go to the Ring and put up a time. Then we can talk. Same here. Get some standardized testing results from an independent organization.
There's no question that certain manufacturers are suckering customers by putting in very cheap LEDs for significant upcharges. It is worth researching the particulars of the model you are considering.
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post #26 of 100 (permalink) Old 01-08-2017, 12:15 AM
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I found that somehow most Porsche dealer lot cars have very low value options, I mean big bucks for useless stuff. Not sure why they would sell without significant discounts, which is exactly the case.

Even more puzzling, dealers never seem to learn from it. On the other hand, manufacturers know far better. At least most Japanese car makers have very good and reasonable option packages. I never needed to custom order a Japanese car. They always seem to be spot on in regard to options/features.
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post #27 of 100 (permalink) Old 01-08-2017, 01:03 AM
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OK, I'm bringing more popcorn to the party

We shouldn't be arguing at all about how good LED is better than HID on the Macan. So the LEDs in the Macan are better in many respect, but most buyers of lot Macans don't know that. The color could be whiter and to discerning eyes look brighter, and the beam pattern more focused, but test drivers don't see that (do you ever test drive a car at night?) If they read the general data from IIHS and the reviews done on other car makes/models, and then hear the SA says that LEDs are a waste of money - it would most likely be a non factor in their purchase. Personally I think Macan's LEDs are superior than HIDs. I have had both and wouldn't hesitate to spend $$$ on them LEDs. To me they're not bling, but since we're talking about lot cars, my reasons above say the dealers can get away with not ordering LEDs now. Dealers can make changes quickly though, in order to compete with the rest of the car market in an affluent area. When you see owners of BMW, Merc, Audi, RR, Lexus, etc...bring in their trade ins with LEDs, you know it's time for Porsche dealers to get on board.
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post #28 of 100 (permalink) Old 01-08-2017, 01:15 AM
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I have no idea if the LED headlight on the Macan is better than the HID's. But for an extra $500 you can have it on a GTS. The cool factor alone is worth the mobey to me.

The $1900 LED option on the S model is questionable in terms of value.
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post #29 of 100 (permalink) Old 01-08-2017, 01:42 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Arnold_T View Post
seems like somebody could make a few bucks as a consultant to dealerships as The Configurator Guy. or better yet, develop a software product to help them do better builds, and sell it to all the dealerships across the country.

I have looked at dealerships over the years . Each place seems to have one primary "configurator guy" . As expected each has a style and just as we insert some of our bias into the cars so do they .

I won't name the dealerships but I see one where there is a gawdy effort placed into the cars . Another focuses on motorsport but really over options cars . Then i see some where it's just a mess .

I did express this to a salesperson when I was looking at lot cars inn disbelief. 200+ cars on the lot and i have to strain to find good ones and struggle if i were buying. He went and told the configurator guy in front of me (which embarrassed me but needed to be said) The guy who I happen to like appeared defensive so i proposed a fun challenge. Lets pick a price and we both spec a car . If his sells before mine i will shut up about the topic . I dont want a cent for my time. I was met with silence . I have thus given up.
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post #30 of 100 (permalink) Old 01-08-2017, 01:53 AM Thread Starter
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So this is the balance dealerships must handle. "enthusiasts" are a fraction of the full set of consumers. They need to balance the lot car with cars enthusiasts might like but really, the market is the market for the masses who look at it as a toaster. The enthusiasts will order the car as desired. I would expect as the Macan market matures, dealers will be more attune with what customers want in their areas. Otherwise, they loose money on cars sitting on lots. Give them time. Its only been two years. Its not like they have 15 years experience with Cayennes or 50 years experiences with 911s. This is a new model with zero history.

I agree with much of what you say except the premise that most reading this forum are enthusiasts . This forum has an enthusiast population but it also has a wide range of readers and one thing in common is that most cant find a lot car to their satisfaction in their region . That implies someone consistently is getting it wrong across the board .

Granted some cars are built because it can sell . Black or white are standard colors and so is beige or black interior . Ventilated seats are not needed everywhere nor is a heated steering wheel. I agree . However I do feel dealerships ought to have the basic colors with premium package plus and a radio to dress up a common seller. The irony is that they have less of them and filled the lots with cars with more options (hoping to fish a little profit) and ill spec . Once a dealership goes beyond the basic then that buyer will see the odd option and want to question ALL the options . He ends up walking away from the car and ordering .

That's why if a car is basic .. then keep it basic .
If a car is optioned .. then each choice better be evaluated or the customer walks (or postpones via ordering) and the car sits .
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